I Need Help to make a Decision!! - 2.25 5mb petrol or 2.5n/a diesel????

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300bhp/ton said:
I do suspect some have been reverted, although it would only make sense if you are selling...

This is a friends 80, it has a 3.5 RV8 in it. Absolutely lovely.... :cool:
mKekxUfh.jpg


Room in the engine bay is less, but tbh better than most modernish (1980's onwards) cars. Visually you wouldn't know it was a V8. But it burbles along with a wonderful soundtrack. It also has enough power to drive with modern traffic. The original 1.6 or 2.0 litre engines where slow even in the 1950s.

It's no worse on fuel than the original engine, just a lot nicer to drive. And I think that is the crux of it. If you have it only as an investment or don't plan to drive it. The 4 pot engines are fine. But something with more power is a lot nicer.

The 80 gets used as a pub car (roof off) during the summer and goes green laning regularly.

This is a family members, also running a 3.5 RV8 and retains the standard bonnet and front panel.
BdR9co3h.jpg



As for swapping in a V8, yes there are a few things to do. And finding the adapter ring might be more difficult these days, although in a 109 you could also easily fit a 5 speed gearbox too. My personal preference would be to stick with a 4 speed though, as it'll make it stay more in character. An LT-95 could be used and will bolt straight to a V8.

Or look at other engines. I personally was very keen to fit a 2.0 T-Series to my 88. But sadly had to sell the vehicle before getting that far. Although the T-Series is a bit of a rare beast these days. More torque than a 2.25p and more power than a Tdi. Plus smooth and refined.

There is of course a Tdi swap, which makes much more sense than a 2.5Nad. But do be warned, the Tdi is less refined than the indirect injection diesels. It would go well and be pretty fugal on fuel. But they are very noisy. I had a 200Tdi in my 88 and it served a good purpose, also managed 43mpg on one laning trip with it. But it was LOUD, no matter what I did. Way less refined than a Tdi 90/110. Had I kept the vehicle it would have gone back to petrol power one way or another.

Personally I doubt any LR engine swap would seriously impact the value of a 109 currently. And as long as you keep the original engine, you could always convert it back should prices dictate it to be financially rewarding. But if you plan to use the vehicle, then having something that goes well is a real bonus.

The ACR stuff for the 2.25p is interesting, but it is pricey. Do really make any difference to outputs you'll spend as much or more than swapping in a V8.
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I quite like the slowness of the original engines.

Now that I don't drive tractors on the roads any more, I don't get many opportunities to hold up dozens of motorists. The 2286 cc petrol 2a is ideal! :D
 
I think petrol is the way forward, smells much nicer, nice and simple to maintain. I don't think it's worth putting a v8 in a series, they're are defenders and range rovers designed just for that. The plus of an old diesel is you can run it on ANYTHING =D even tears of a vegetarian economy warrior. In all fairness though petrol is cheaper and delivers a smoother drive, more apt I feel for an series.
 
@ChrisG1969 , that's a very smart looking rebuild you have there. Re' engines, it's always a personal choice. @300bhp/ton has given very good input/advisory. From my side and having a freshly rebuilt 200tdi in my Ninety and having rebuilt/worked/installed many an RV8 I'd be inclined to opt for either of these and neither would in any way devalue your 109. The Tdi engines can be a little noisy [mine's very quiet where brand new and have plenty of Dynamat sound deadening] but are super little engines and tough as old nails. A std 3.5ltr V8 transforms a Series Land Rover, especially the driving experience, and can be easily modified to give a totally reliable 150-170bhp with plenty of torque. Re running costs, it's negligible between the two and both are very easy to work on and maintain.
 
Turboman said:
They are a good engine. Unfortunately, not many were sold in the UK, and they are very hard to find now.
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Yes, the 2.5petrols are sweet, remind me of a sewing machine when running with a Postman Pat style burble :)
My 1985 90 originally had one but I swapped it for a V8 and sold it on so at least it is still (?) running.
Nearing its 40th anniversary I sometimes wonder if I should have kept the 2.5 for originality; a Turner Stage 1 head makes them more drivable apparently but I do love the V8.

Re the OP, I would keep the 2.5P, perhaps spend money on a rebuild with a Turner head and enjoy it. The diesel is a slogger but noisy and slow. Or put a RRC/Disco1 V8, the mpg is marginally less than the 2.5 but much more powerful, a pleasure to drive and sounds good.
 
cappers said:
Yes, the 2.5petrols are sweet, remind me of a sewing machine when running with a Postman Pat style burble :)
My 1985 90 originally had one but I swapped it for a V8 and sold it on so at least it is still (?) running.
Nearing its 40th anniversary I sometimes wonder if I should have kept the 2.5 for originality; a Turner Stage 1 head makes them more drivable apparently but I do love the V8.

Re the OP, I would keep the 2.5P, perhaps spend money on a rebuild with a Turner head and enjoy it. The diesel is a slogger but noisy and slow. Or put a RRC/Disco1 V8, the mpg is marginally less than the 2.5 but much more powerful, a pleasure to drive and sounds good.
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I think he actually has a 2286cc 5 main bearing engine at the moment, as it is a Series.

Which is a pretty good engine too.
 
Colthebrummie said:
My 109 station wagon is 2.25 petrol and gets about 18 mpg. It also has a.couple.of.cylinders with low pressure but it will get up to 60 mph and will keep at 30 on steep hills in third gear. Mine has an electronic dizzy which does seem to help. The more sound proofing you add, the better. I added soundproffing to the bonnet, bulkhead and seat box and can now have.a.conversation at 30-40 mph. I dont have power steering. If I was you, Id keep the 2.25 petrol engine and have the head skimmed and new gasket or get a machined head that has been converted to accept lead free.fuel. Mine is the 3 bearing engine. If yours is.the 5 bearing in a 1970 model then it has obviously been replaced in the past.

Col
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Thank you. It does seem to be the way forward.
 
rynner said:
i have previously had a 88 with a lead free head, it was fairly thirsty and with the amount of miles i was doing combined with the documented problems with the 'e' petrol going off in petrol tanks,there are no petrol stations anywhere near me selling the older type of petrol so i was having to just use a few gallons of the new type rather than filling my tank,
I prefer diesels as in my personal experience they last longer and less prone to breakdowns so when looking for my bigger historic class land rover a diesel was a must,
As it happens the one i found, the same body as yours in post 1,it has a 2.5na with an overdrive already fitted, and although i have not driven it for more than a few miles it does seem to be easily powerfull enough and smooth,
i know that a tank of diesel will not 'go off' which is happening with the new petrol, i can safely store diesel in jerry cans where the new petrol cannot be,
There is a government site which has a check service to see if a vehicle will run on the new petrol,
Thats just my view,
Atb
Ryn
Any chance of some pics of the rear interior of your 109 for reference?,
Click to expand...

Sorry for the late reply!
Here are some pics of the interior for you!
Personally I dont like the rear seats as you sit too high so I will be swopping these out.
Chris

20052651-9.jpg
20052651-4.jpg
13925448.jpg
20052651-0.jpg
 
Turboman said:
I quite like the slowness of the original engines.

Now that I don't drive tractors on the roads any more, I don't get many opportunities to hold up dozens of motorists. The 2286 cc petrol 2a is ideal! :D
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Ha Ha! I sometimes think i wouldhate to be behind me on the road!
I have a dream of taking a caravan to Europe behind the 109. Everything seems to be leading towards getting the 2.25 5 bearing petrol honed and redone. there is something in the originality of the slowness.!
 
v8250 said:
@ChrisG1969 , that's a very smart looking rebuild you have there. Re' engines, it's always a personal choice. @300bhp/ton has given very good input/advisory. From my side and having a freshly rebuilt 200tdi in my Ninety and having rebuilt/worked/installed many an RV8 I'd be inclined to opt for either of these and neither would in any way devalue your 109. The Tdi engines can be a little noisy [mine's very quiet where brand new and have plenty of Dynamat sound deadening] but are super little engines and tough as old nails. A std 3.5ltr V8 transforms a Series Land Rover, especially the driving experience, and can be easily modified to give a totally reliable 150-170bhp with plenty of torque. Re running costs, it's negligible between the two and both are very easy to work on and maintain.
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Thank you.
200 TDI are hard to find now and i seem to be going towards having the petrol 2.25 rebuilt. Not many people seem to be pushing me towards the 2.2n/a diesel!
 
I think the 2.25 will suit the car and be closer to originality. Everyone does need a v8 in there life though, so it depends if you plan on getting another landy with a v8. If you're not I'd steer towards a nice low powered early 3.5
 
Adapted from my comments on series fuel economy thread:

“
I’ve got a 2.25 petrol SWB on parabolics with freewheeling hubs (which seem to like throwing oil) and a Fairey overdrive (which seems to like making everything else throw oil once it’s thrown it’s own). On a recent run from Cardiff to Norfolk via Stratford in London I was getting about 20-23 when tucked behind lorries at 56-60 on the GPS. Suspect will be a lot better if I slow down but had time constraints. Biggest thing I can recommend for petrol ones is using Waze to find places with decent premium unleaded as the price over standard varies wildly! I find Tesco is normally about 5p extra vs standard

Will see what it is this weekend as might take it back down to Cardiff Saturday eve — might take the Northampton/Birmingham route instead for comparison as won’t be overtaken by so many lorries if I go a bit more gently!

Regret to say I didn’t calculate it on the Norfolk to Cardiff run before I got the overdrive installed, but can confirm that I was overtaken on the A14 by a lorry hauling mining equipment”

I’d say that 5 bearing petrol with overdrive like mine is fine for modern traffic as 50-55 on the speedo is comfortable (until the OD starts to get hot and whine 🙄). Without an OD it’s only really suitable for pootling. They still rev fairly highly at speed with an OD, so I’d say stay away from diesel.

I find freewheeling hubs make a very noticeable difference to both acceleration and fuel economy, and indeed helps keep the engine cooler! A worthwhile addition in my books for anything that does longer journeys, although they are a bit temperamental for leaking etc. Mine seem to cause vibration if engaged over 50MPH.

The ULEZ issue will be significant for you — I don’t think the diesel would be compliant from what I see (and might lose tax exempt status etc from memory, unless you can say it was to reduce emissions etc as I seem to remember there is some clause on that).

Not sure how a V8 would work in regard to ULEZ etc. I have seen adapter rings about recently but not sure if they’re the right ones as don’t need one. I’d be wanting to keep the recessed grill personally as I love the look of it.

Now, in terms of sound and power a V8 would absolutely be the way to go - however If you’re splashing cash I’d think maybe put the later 5 speed box and a DS roamerdrive in? Not sure how hard that is to do but really would make the ultimate classic daily and presumably it would shift. However I’ll admit I’m a sucker for originality on a series and have heard the DVLA change can be a hassle.

In short, I’d say that if you want it to pootle around London keep the 2.25 as it does the job happily to 40 and keeps originality. If you want the occasional longer trip shove an overdrive on it (but I’d say for the price of fairey’s these days maybe go for a roamerdrive). I’d personally avoid the diesel and instead find cheap premium fuel, get freewheeling hubs, and maybe fit some soundproofing.

PS I’ve found my (decent condition) door tops start to shake alarmingly at 70!

Hope this is worth the read and of some use, give me a shout if I’ve missed anything
 
Last edited:
tom.brandford said:
Adapted from my comments on series fuel economy thread:

“
I’ve got a 2.25 petrol SWB on parabolics with freewheeling hubs (which seem to like throwing oil) and a Fairey overdrive (which seems to like making everything else throw oil once it’s thrown it’s own). On a recent run from Cardiff to Norfolk via Stratford in London I was getting about 20-23 when tucked behind lorries at 56-60 on the GPS. Suspect will be a lot better if I slow down but had time constraints. Biggest thing I can recommend for petrol ones is using Waze to find places with decent premium unleaded as the price over standard varies wildly! I find Tesco is normally about 5p extra vs standard

Will see what it is this weekend as might take it back down to Cardiff Saturday eve — might take the Northampton/Birmingham route instead for comparison as won’t be overtaken by so many lorries if I go a bit more gently!

Regret to say I didn’t calculate it on the Norfolk to Cardiff run before I got the overdrive installed, but can confirm that I was overtaken on the A14 by a lorry hauling mining equipment”

I’d say that 5 bearing petrol with overdrive like mine is fine for modern traffic as 50-55 on the speedo is comfortable (until the OD starts to get hot and whine 🙄). Without an OD it’s only really suitable for pootling. They still rev fairly highly at speed with an OD, so I’d say stay away from diesel.

I find freewheeling hubs make a very noticeable difference to both acceleration and fuel economy, and indeed helps keep the engine cooler! A worthwhile addition in my books for anything that does longer journeys, although they are a bit temperamental for leaking etc. Mine seem to cause vibration if engaged over 50MPH.

The ULEZ issue will be significant for you — I don’t think the diesel would be compliant from what I see (and might lose tax exempt status etc from memory, unless you can say it was to reduce emissions etc as I seem to remember there is some clause on that).

Not sure how a V8 would work in regard to ULEZ etc. I have seen adapter rings about recently but not sure if they’re the right ones as don’t need one. I’d be wanting to keep the recessed grill personally as I love the look of it.

Now, in terms of sound and power a V8 would absolutely be the way to go - however If you’re splashing cash I’d think maybe put the later 5 speed box and a DS roamerdrive in? Not sure how hard that is to do but really would make the ultimate classic daily and presumably it would shift. However I’ll admit I’m a sucker for originality on a series and have heard the DVLA change can be a hassle.

In short, I’d say that if you want it to pootle around London keep the 2.25 as it does the job happily to 40 and keeps originality. If you want the occasional longer trip shove an overdrive on it (but I’d say for the price of fairey’s these days maybe go for a roamerdrive). I’d personally avoid the diesel and instead find cheap premium fuel, get freewheeling hubs, and maybe fit some soundproofing.

PS I’ve found my (decent condition) door tops start to shake alarmingly at 70!

Hope this is worth the read and of some use, give me a shout if I’ve missed anything
Click to expand...
Tom,
Many thanks for your information.
Interesting to see your mileage as i was around !5mph. I think this is probably due to the two cylinders running at half compression. Following the advice i have had here, I am going to stick with the 2.25 5 bearing petrol and am taking it to be repaired.
I do have an overdrive already fitted which is the Roamerdrive. This shares the oil I believe with the gearbox and I have found it to be excellent so far.
I have been debating about freewheeling hubs for a while as they must surely take away some of the drag on the engine. There seems to be split opinions from what I can see!! Obviously you have to engage them now and again to keep the joints lubricated, but on a run, it would make sense to have them freewheeling?
Any thoughts on the best FWHubs?
I also fitted power steering which is a game changer in London with One ton wheels. Regarding the ULEZ, the vehicle is registered historic, so is exempt from any ULEZ charge. In fact, any vehicle over 40 years old is exempt from it in London. It does seem to make a mockery of it, but just goes to show they don't really care about the emissions.
Well I seem to now have a 2.5n/a engine for sale after all this!!
Many thanks again.
Chris
 
ChrisG1969 said:
Tom,
Many thanks for your information.
Interesting to see your mileage as i was around !5mph. I think this is probably due to the two cylinders running at half compression. Following the advice i have had here, I am going to stick with the 2.25 5 bearing petrol and am taking it to be repaired.
I do have an overdrive already fitted which is the Roamerdrive. This shares the oil I believe with the gearbox and I have found it to be excellent so far.
I have been debating about freewheeling hubs for a while as they must surely take away some of the drag on the engine. There seems to be split opinions from what I can see!! Obviously you have to engage them now and again to keep the joints lubricated, but on a run, it would make sense to have them freewheeling?
Any thoughts on the best FWHubs?
I also fitted power steering which is a game changer in London with One ton wheels. Regarding the ULEZ, the vehicle is registered historic, so is exempt from any ULEZ charge. In fact, any vehicle over 40 years old is exempt from it in London. It does seem to make a mockery of it, but just goes to show they don't really care about the emissions.
Well I seem to now have a 2.5n/a engine for sale after all this!!
Many thanks again.
Chris
Click to expand...
Glad you found the info of use! I would say 15mpg probably isn’t bad for inner city/short drives - taking the girlfriend through the centre of Cardiff for work did make mine thirsty, seems to be a thing when the choke is out and it’s cold (due to loose carb air hose when I did the initial section from Cardiff to Membury I got about 19/20MPG with the choke out).

Think you’ve made the right decision keeping the petrol - originality is nice and becoming more important, and petrol is better to drive and probably more suited to your needs, especially vs the NA diesel. If you were going that route I’d recommend a 200tdi for your uses.

Lots of debate on FW hubs yes - I can only speak from my own experience. Mine has original Fairey’s, which despite recent seal changes still leak. However, they always seem to work ok! If modern versions are available then I would recommend they be worth a shot, although of course it’s always nice to keep things original. To be honest I find the biggest faff is getting out to engage/disengage them and getting fingers muddy when laning - was more of an issue though when I had to be ultra cautious due to some overheating issues. For your use I’d definitely say get the hubs, as to modern vs original only you can answer that - but given you’re fitting a roamerdrive and have power steering I’d say go for modern ones especially as I understand Fairey parts are a bit thin on the ground. I’m afraid I’m not familiar with different models as mine came with them.

My concern over the diesel engine swap was primarily related to this guidance — as always seems to be a tad unclear whether the diesel would be alternative original equipment (doubt you could argue it is due to parts availability)… really must get round to registering mine as historic.

Historic (classic) vehicles: MOT exemption criteria

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

I’d suggest perhaps keeping hold of the diesel and have an eye out for a decent series missing an engine - there’s a couple floating about on Facebook. I made the decision to get the 110 with dreadful bodywork after feeling guilty about the most minor of scratches on green lanes to the series - they really are classics after all. The 2.5NA can be fully submerged with a snorkel and from my understanding is pretty reliable and was used by the military. Drop it into a solid chassis, put a snorkel on it, and get exploring guilt-free! A winch and maybe some used insa turbos wouldn’t go a miss either. Not sure where your journeys take you, but there’s some nice starter lanes around thetford and the peddars way - happy to do a day out if you’re near Norfolk some time. The ones I’ve done aren’t scratchy, so would be happy to take my series - maybe this time i’ll avoid the big puddle which has led to a new rear cross member!

I’m sure you’ve got plenty of security, but maybe add more especially if it is/you make it look pretty? I feel bad enough leaving mine overnight in Cardiff with lots of security, i outright refuse to leave it overnight when I’m in London!
 
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