Help identify this vehicle and catch some thieves.

Apologies for X posting.

Six months ago I had a 'visit' from the light-fingered brigade who broke
into my shed and relieved me of an old lawnmower, and more expensively a
brand new hedge trimmer and chain saw.

Two nights ago the same tyre tracks took the same path across the same
field and stopped in the same place outside my hedge.

I no longer keep anything of value in the shed, so no crime committed,
but this time I got some decent measurements in the wet soil.

What I have is:

Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
wider tyres.

Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.

Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
it is, but lack evidence.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:55:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Apologies for X posting.
>
>Six months ago I had a 'visit' from the light-fingered brigade who broke
>into my shed and relieved me of an old lawnmower, and more expensively a
>brand new hedge trimmer and chain saw.
>
>Two nights ago the same tyre tracks took the same path across the same
>field and stopped in the same place outside my hedge.
>
>I no longer keep anything of value in the shed, so no crime committed,
>but this time I got some decent measurements in the wet soil.
>
>What I have is:
>
>Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
>Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
>Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
>Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
>equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
>A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
>wider tyres.
>
>Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
>a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.
>
>Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
>the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
>it is, but lack evidence.

Take a plaster cast of the tyre tracks before they dissappear...and
get a security camera!

sPoniX

"The Natural Philosopher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Apologies for X posting.
>
<snip>
>
> Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
> Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
> Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
> Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
> equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
> A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
> wider tyres.
>
> Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
> a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.
>
> Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
> the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
> it is, but lack evidence.
>

Hmm.

Kia Sportage comes in at 2.65m wheelbase, track is 1.44m, runs on 205/70R15
and weighs in at 1494kg unladen.

Others such as RAV4, Freelander, Vitaras, et al don't seem to fit the
dimensions you give as well as the Kia Sportage. Also strikes me as the sort
of poor mans 4WD that thieves might use. After all, if they want to keep a
Freelander running, they'll need more than the proceeds of shed break-ins.

Cheers
Clive

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:55:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Apologies for X posting.
>>
>>Six months ago I had a 'visit' from the light-fingered brigade who broke
>>into my shed and relieved me of an old lawnmower, and more expensively a
>>brand new hedge trimmer and chain saw.
>>
>>Two nights ago the same tyre tracks took the same path across the same
>>field and stopped in the same place outside my hedge.
>>
>>I no longer keep anything of value in the shed, so no crime committed,
>>but this time I got some decent measurements in the wet soil.
>>
>>What I have is:
>>
>>Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
>>Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
>>Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
>>Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
>>equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
>>A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
>>wider tyres.
>>
>>Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
>>a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.
>>
>>Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
>>the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
>>it is, but lack evidence.
>
>
> Take a plaster cast of the tyre tracks before they dissappear...and
> get a security camera!

No need. They are Michelins, same as last time, as I'ded by local police.



>
> sPoniX

Clive Summerfield wrote:

> "The Natural Philosopher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Apologies for X posting.
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>>Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
>>Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
>>Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
>>Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
>>equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
>>A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
>>wider tyres.
>>
>>Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
>>a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.
>>
>>Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
>>the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
>>it is, but lack evidence.
>>
>
>
> Hmm.
>
> Kia Sportage comes in at 2.65m wheelbase, track is 1.44m, runs on 205/70R15
> and weighs in at 1494kg unladen.
>
> Others such as RAV4, Freelander, Vitaras, et al don't seem to fit the
> dimensions you give as well as the Kia Sportage. Also strikes me as the sort
> of poor mans 4WD that thieves might use. After all, if they want to keep a
> Freelander running, they'll need more than the proceeds of shed break-ins.
>

Thank you muchly.

I too have identified that its very small, narrow tracked and narrow on
the tryes - it may be it is NOT 4WD and is something like a clapped old
Fiesta van or similar. Of all the possible suspect types round here, an
old pickup - more than 10 years, maybe 15 - is the sort of vehicle one
would expect.

2.65m is too long. its absolutely not over 2.6m, and its absoluteley
165mm across the treads - is that where the tyre is 'measured' at?

And track was VERY precise and easier to measure than anything else - I
got 1.45 and 1.46 on two measurements.

However I will look up te Kia and see if it fits vehicles I have seen
hanging around.

Keep the data coming, and thank you.



> Cheers
> Clive
>
>

Paul Bullough wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
>> the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know
>> who it is, but lack evidence.
>>
>
>
> How about Tread Assistant
> http://www.pearlcomm.com/treadassistant/

That would seem to be only useful to tell me what I know - that it was
shorn with fairly worm michelin cheapos of 165mm tread width.

That takes me to 13" or 14" rims mostly I think.

And an older car. Most modern 4x4's are 185mm or bigger.


>
> You'll be ok with the demo if they're driving something beginning with "A".
> Surprised if the police don't have access to something like this.

I am in contact with local guy who came last time.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:04:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> I too have identified that its very small, narrow tracked and narrow on
> the tryes - it may be it is NOT 4WD and is something like a clapped old
> Fiesta van or similar. Of all the possible suspect types round here, an
> old pickup - more than 10 years, maybe 15 - is the sort of vehicle one
> would expect.

If you're implying old and cheap, and assuming 4wd, then the first thing
that sprang to mind was one of those old Lada Riva 4x4's - cheap and
cheerful, do the job etc.

I can't find any details on track, but wheelbase is 2.2m and tyre width is
6.95" (176mm) at the rim (I think, site wasn't too clear), so 165mm for
the tread might be right.

cheers

Jules

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:58:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
wrote:

>s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:55:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Apologies for X posting.
>>>
>>>Six months ago I had a 'visit' from the light-fingered brigade who broke
>>>into my shed and relieved me of an old lawnmower, and more expensively a
>>>brand new hedge trimmer and chain saw.
>>>
>>>Two nights ago the same tyre tracks took the same path across the same
>>>field and stopped in the same place outside my hedge.
>>>
>>>I no longer keep anything of value in the shed, so no crime committed,
>>>but this time I got some decent measurements in the wet soil.
>>>
>>>What I have is:
>>>
>>>Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
>>>Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
>>>Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
>>>Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
>>>equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
>>>A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
>>>wider tyres.
>>>
>>>Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
>>>a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.
>>>
>>>Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
>>>the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
>>>it is, but lack evidence.
>>
>>
>> Take a plaster cast of the tyre tracks before they dissappear...and
>> get a security camera!
>
>No need. They are Michelins, same as last time, as I'ded by local police.

Ford escort/Vauxhall astra?

sPoNiX

Jules wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:04:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>I too have identified that its very small, narrow tracked and narrow on
>>the tryes - it may be it is NOT 4WD and is something like a clapped old
>>Fiesta van or similar. Of all the possible suspect types round here, an
>> old pickup - more than 10 years, maybe 15 - is the sort of vehicle one
>>would expect.
>
>
> If you're implying old and cheap, and assuming 4wd, then the first thing
> that sprang to mind was one of those old Lada Riva 4x4's - cheap and
> cheerful, do the job etc.
>
> I can't find any details on track, but wheelbase is 2.2m and tyre width is
> 6.95" (176mm) at the rim (I think, site wasn't too clear), so 165mm for
> the tread might be right.
>

Sounds right except for the track. Too wide by half!
Oh, and wheelbase - too long!

I am thinking it may not be 4WD after all.

> cheers
>
> Jules
>

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:58:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:55:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Apologies for X posting.
>>>>
>>>>Six months ago I had a 'visit' from the light-fingered brigade who broke
>>>>into my shed and relieved me of an old lawnmower, and more expensively a
>>>>brand new hedge trimmer and chain saw.
>>>>
>>>>Two nights ago the same tyre tracks took the same path across the same
>>>>field and stopped in the same place outside my hedge.
>>>>
>>>>I no longer keep anything of value in the shed, so no crime committed,
>>>>but this time I got some decent measurements in the wet soil.
>>>>
>>>>What I have is:
>>>>
>>>>Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
>>>>Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
>>>>Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
>>>>Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
>>>>equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
>>>>A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
>>>>wider tyres.
>>>>
>>>>Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
>>>>a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.
>>>>
>>>>Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
>>>>the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
>>>>it is, but lack evidence.
>>>
>>>
>>>Take a plaster cast of the tyre tracks before they dissappear...and
>>>get a security camera!
>>
>>No need. They are Michelins, same as last time, as I'ded by local police.
>
>
> Ford escort/Vauxhall astra?

That had crossed my mind. Thats exactly teh sort of nasty old heap of
rusty cr@p I woud expect the lads to have.

Hmm. Can anyone find specs on Marinas, Datsun bluebrds, and Astras

These all look 'in the ballpark' from what I have found.

>
> sPoNiX

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:58:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:55:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Apologies for X posting.
>>>>
>>>>Six months ago I had a 'visit' from the light-fingered brigade who broke
>>>>into my shed and relieved me of an old lawnmower, and more expensively a
>>>>brand new hedge trimmer and chain saw.
>>>>
>>>>Two nights ago the same tyre tracks took the same path across the same
>>>>field and stopped in the same place outside my hedge.
>>>>
>>>>I no longer keep anything of value in the shed, so no crime committed,
>>>>but this time I got some decent measurements in the wet soil.
>>>>
>>>>What I have is:
>>>>
>>>>Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
>>>>Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
>>>>Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
>>>>Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
>>>>equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
>>>>A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
>>>>wider tyres.
>>>>
>>>>Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
>>>>a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.
>>>>
>>>>Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
>>>>the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
>>>>it is, but lack evidence.
>>>
>>>
>>>Take a plaster cast of the tyre tracks before they dissappear...and
>>>get a security camera!
>>
>>No need. They are Michelins, same as last time, as I'ded by local police.
>
>
> Ford escort/Vauxhall astra?
>
> sPoNiX

AHA. I may have it. Volvo 145 estate?

This looks like it matches in EVERY respect.

http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/press/pdf/145S-PressRelease.pdf
Wheel base 102.5" = 2.60 meters wheelbase.
Track 57" = 1.45 meters
Tire size 165 S 15.

I'll dig deeper, but its not the first time I have seen a dodgy volvo
hanging around.

"The Natural Philosopher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
....
> I am thinking it may not be 4WD after all.

Perhaps you should keep something very heavy, that looks valuable, in your
shed. A metal stockist I knew had a group of travellers try to steal his
entire brass stock. The Police caught them, several hours later, trying to
get the heavily overladen lorry out of the mud alongside his building.

Colin Bignell

The Natural Philosopher ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

> AHA. I may have it. Volvo 145 estate?
>
> This looks like it matches in EVERY respect.

Apart from the fact they're damn near extinct.

I'm with the Scrote in a Scrote Van theory.

Adrian wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
> were saying :
>
>
>>AHA. I may have it. Volvo 145 estate?
>>
>>This looks like it matches in EVERY respect.
>
>
> Apart from the fact they're damn near extinct.
>
> I'm with the Scrote in a Scrote Van theory.


Look. What cars curently run on 165 tyres? Not many - certainly very few
road cars.

If you put that in - already its a 70's car.

Over a million 145's were made, its an old banger sure, but there are
still a lot around.

We are talking 300 yards across a muddy field. Volvos to that. Most
modern cars do not. Apart from 4x4's and everything I can find more
modern than the volvo uses wider tyres and/or has a wider track.

Feel free to please find something more modern that fits the bill, but
its the best I have come up with yet.

The Natural Philosopher ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

>>>AHA. I may have it. Volvo 145 estate?

>> Apart from the fact they're damn near extinct.
>>
>> I'm with the Scrote in a Scrote Van theory.

> Look. What cars curently run on 165 tyres? Not many - certainly very few
> road cars.
>
> If you put that in - already its a 70's car.

Not so sure about that - almost anything Escort-sized and below apart from
probably the last five years or so. Hell, many Fiesta-size use 135 and 145.
Escort Vans are prime thieving pikey scum fodder - and would have no
problem with a bit of muddy grass, especially with somebody who'll be used
to nicking things out of sheds in the middle of the night behind the wheel.

It's the 165 tread width that rules out a 4x4, for sure - nothing 4x4 uses
tyres that narrow - except mebbe a Panda 4x4 (Hmmm. I wonder?)

I'd love it if they did, as it's nearly impossible to get tyres to fit the
2cv4x4. Suzuki SJ are about the narrowest at 195 or so.

I'd have thought 4x4 tyres would be fairly identifiable from the tread, too
- chunkier, more open.

Adrian wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
> were saying :
>
>
>>>>AHA. I may have it. Volvo 145 estate?
>
>
>>>Apart from the fact they're damn near extinct.
>>>
>>>I'm with the Scrote in a Scrote Van theory.
>
>
>>Look. What cars curently run on 165 tyres? Not many - certainly very few
>>road cars.
>>
>>If you put that in - already its a 70's car.
>
>
> Not so sure about that - almost anything Escort-sized and below apart from
> probably the last five years or so. Hell, many Fiesta-size use 135 and 145.
> Escort Vans are prime thieving pikey scum fodder - and would have no
> problem with a bit of muddy grass, especially with somebody who'll be used
> to nicking things out of sheds in the middle of the night behind the wheel.

Ok, I'll buy that. Where can I find track and wheelbase data on Escort
and Fiesta sized vans?

Its not muddy grass tho. Its ploughed and seeded deep clay with crops in
it. Ive even had a fair bot o weheelspin on the defender on similar.
>
> It's the 165 tread width that rules out a 4x4, for sure - nothing 4x4 uses
> tyres that narrow - except mebbe a Panda 4x4 (Hmmm. I wonder?)

I though of that - but its too small to nick stuff in really.

>
> I'd love it if they did, as it's nearly impossible to get tyres to fit the
> 2cv4x4. Suzuki SJ are about the narrowest at 195 or so.
>
> I'd have thought 4x4 tyres would be fairly identifiable from the tread, too
> - chunkier, more open.

Its the cheapo michelins similar to what you get on any small car -
longitudinal sipes wih lateral ones at an angle on teh edges.

The Natural Philosopher ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

>> Not so sure about that - almost anything Escort-sized and below apart
>> from probably the last five years or so. Hell, many Fiesta-size use
>> 135 and 145. Escort Vans are prime thieving pikey scum fodder - and
>> would have no problem with a bit of muddy grass, especially with
>> somebody who'll be used to nicking things out of sheds in the middle
>> of the night behind the wheel.

> Ok, I'll buy that. Where can I find track and wheelbase data on Escort
> and Fiesta sized vans?

'92 (Mk IV) Escort Estate :-
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=27027
Wheelbase 2525mm
Track F 1440mm, R 1462mm
Total width 1696mm

Damn near spot-on your measurements, right?

>> I'd have thought 4x4 tyres would be fairly identifiable from the
>> tread, too - chunkier, more open.

> Its the cheapo michelins similar to what you get on any small car -
> longitudinal sipes wih lateral ones at an angle on teh edges.

Bit upmarket for a pikey Scrote van... <grin> Probably nicked.

> Look. What cars curently run on 165 tyres? Not many - certainly very few
> road cars.
>
> If you put that in - already its a 70's car.

My old Vauxhall Cavalier had 165 wide tyres. You don't have to go back to
the 1970s.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

>>Look. What cars curently run on 165 tyres? Not many - certainly very few
>>road cars.
>>
>>If you put that in - already its a 70's car.
>
>
> My old Vauxhall Cavalier had 165 wide tyres. You don't have to go back to
> the 1970s.
>
> Christian.
>
>
I have found the most marvellous resource

http://home2.pi.be/volckery/tiremarks_taking_measurements.htm

The Subaru Legacy - older ones - equipped with minimal tyres has 4WD and
fits the bill perfectly, and I do remeber being woken vaguely by what
sounded like a VW engine - flat four in a soobie innit?

If anyone ghas Acees or DB4, maybe they can do a better serach through
teh data - using the conditions


Tyre size=165
2.56<WHEELBASE<2.61
1.45<REARTRACK<1.46

SORT by MODSEL

In article <[email protected]>, The Natural
Philosopher <[email protected]> writes
>s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:58:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:55:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Apologies for X posting.
>>>>>
>>>>>Six months ago I had a 'visit' from the light-fingered brigade who broke
>>>>>into my shed and relieved me of an old lawnmower, and more expensively a
>>>>>brand new hedge trimmer and chain saw.
>>>>>
>>>>>Two nights ago the same tyre tracks took the same path across the same
>>>>>field and stopped in the same place outside my hedge.
>>>>>
>>>>>I no longer keep anything of value in the shed, so no crime committed,
>>>>>but this time I got some decent measurements in the wet soil.
>>>>>
>>>>>What I have is:
>>>>>
>>>>>Wheelbase 2.45 meters +- 50 cm.
>>>>>Track 1.45 meters +-5cm.
>>>>>Tread width 165mm, sidewalls maybe 200mm apart, Michelin cheapo tyres
>>>>>Almost certainly 4x4 to leave the sort of marks it did - there were 4
>>>>>equal sized gouges where it stopped, and then took off again.
>>>>>A bit lighter than a Landrover Defender - mine leaves deeper tracks on
>>>>>wider tyres.
>>>>>
>>>>>Since the intention was to remove large garden machinery, I am guessing
>>>>>a pickup or a van style back - as in landrover and jap copies thereof.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any suggestions as to the make of vehicle would be welcome. By me and
>>>>>the police here. They are cagey, but I have the impression they know who
>>>>>it is, but lack evidence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Take a plaster cast of the tyre tracks before they dissappear...and
>>>>get a security camera!
>>>
>>>No need. They are Michelins, same as last time, as I'ded by local police.
>>
>>
>> Ford escort/Vauxhall astra?
>>
>> sPoNiX
>
>AHA. I may have it. Volvo 145 estate?
>
>This looks like it matches in EVERY respect.
>
>http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/press/pdf/145S-PressRelease.pdf
>Wheel base 102.5" = 2.60 meters wheelbase.
>Track 57" = 1.45 meters
>Tire size 165 S 15.
>
>I'll dig deeper, but its not the first time I have seen a dodgy volvo
>hanging around.
>
>

Even so NP what are, or can, you do with that info. Even if you do
determine that it is such and such a vehicle, are you any really further
forward?.

Perhaps the best thing you have done is to demo that your gaff isn't
worth doing over again?...
--
Tony Sayer