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Hammering noise when under power
- Thread starter Darmain
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Darmain
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Got out the house this morning, after the rain, and discovered a rainbow river flowing past the front door. The source? Do I have to say?
:violent: FREELANDER
I am seriously considering its trade in value..... Whats left of it.
:violent: FREELANDER
I am seriously considering its trade in value..... Whats left of it.
Darmain
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Not feeling quite so violent this morning so no Gatling guns today. The engine is deteriorating. Sounds like it is down on power on one pot. Rough running and the thumping is present under all conditions bar idling. Got some new timing belts as they are due a change. That was 40 quid for the pair. My next task is to source a compression tester. I am now considering the possibility of either HGF or a valve problem. If the pot pressures are way out of balance then the next purchase is going to be a head gasket set and a torque wrench.
This machine is going to have to pull its weight. Having put 400 quids worth of tyres on it and all the other bits I've had to buy, plus having discovered that it has lost half the value I paid for it a year ago its going to be with us for a while longer.
This machine is going to have to pull its weight. Having put 400 quids worth of tyres on it and all the other bits I've had to buy, plus having discovered that it has lost half the value I paid for it a year ago its going to be with us for a while longer.
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if it sounds like a Gatling gun - is it a deep rumble or more high pitched - coz it sounds like big or little end bearings. Woteffer - its major.
Darmain
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Its a deep thumping that is in beat with the engine firing. I'm thinking its a weak pot thats dragging behind. 'Why' is the big question. I think the lid has got to come off for sure. Hopefully that'll be all tha needs to be dismantled. I'm seeking a compression tester at the moment. When I know something I'll report back.
Darmain
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Okay, the compression tester idea has hit a fundamental problem. The cheapest I've found one for is 100 quid. A lot of dosh. Asked Uncle, he didn't have one but thought he knew a guy who did. As it turns out this guy doesn't have one either but he does own a Freelander himself and has plenty of experience with them. Me and the car are invited round for 10:30 tomorrow for a consulation. In the meanwhile I have started the wheels rolling to source a gasket set for the head to come off. I think its going to have to happen sooner rather than later.
Pikey
Dummy Ejection Facilitator..
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Not fer a diesel ya can't..
Darmain
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This is getting weird. I trundled round to this chaps house. The car was sounding rough as old boots. Drove okay but sounded like it was going to die in a heap any minute. I hoped I would get there.
On arrival, following a chat and a cuppa, we inspected the car. Engine test at idle first. 'Sounds sweet to me' he said. Indeed it does sound okay idling and always has. We then went for a drive, first up a good incline on an 'A' class road. 'This is going well' was his comment, "is it holding back?'. I then opened it right up and as usual it picked up sharply and pushed through the 60 MPH mark before I backed off again. 'Nothing wrong with that engine mate, that I can assure you' he concluded 'but there is another noise going on there'. We turned off on to a quiet road of his choosing, then I found out why. Its a straight road, gentle decline and goes on for a good two miles. 'Right, stead as you go, knock it out of gear and switch off the engine'. We are still doing 35 MPH, after switching off I switched back on to get the gauges alive. Hopefully I don't need to stop too quickly without the servo. He assessed the noises and then commanded I restart and resume normal driving, knocking it in to forth and dropping the clutch did that. We returned to base.
The conclusion. In his yard was a '01' plate hippo, removable back and a 1.8 petrol under the bonnet. 'That one does exactly the same, only much worse' was his annoncement. He concluded that while the noise sounded like it was the engine it was infact the transmission. He suspected that either the onside front wheel bearing was begining to fail or the problem was in the IRD. This other Hippo had a nearly failed wheel bearing and was waiting in the queue of other cars sat about to be fixed. Apparently you need ear muffs to drive it due to this howling bearing.
Advice is to take the front off side hub apart and examine the bearings for evidence of the case hardening breaking up on the rollers. Replace as necessary and then try again. If this doen't do the trick, or nothing is found amiss with the bearing then the IRD is the next point of suspision.
This is, of course, completely different advice to the previous chap. However, after departing for home I set about testing a few theories. I conducted a rough 0 - 60 test. The result was 19 seconds. The Stig isn't going to worry I know but thats pretty good going for an engine with 'suspected low compression'. My 1.6L petrol Picasso can only manage 17 seconds after all. I also conducted another 'shutdown' test and I agree that I can still hear the noises even then.
I must admit I feel a bit of a prat that I had gone so far with the engine diagnosis, however drawing comfort from the fact the LR expert also seems to have drawn the wrong conclusion also.
Job on for tomorrow it seems. May not need that gasket set after all.
On arrival, following a chat and a cuppa, we inspected the car. Engine test at idle first. 'Sounds sweet to me' he said. Indeed it does sound okay idling and always has. We then went for a drive, first up a good incline on an 'A' class road. 'This is going well' was his comment, "is it holding back?'. I then opened it right up and as usual it picked up sharply and pushed through the 60 MPH mark before I backed off again. 'Nothing wrong with that engine mate, that I can assure you' he concluded 'but there is another noise going on there'. We turned off on to a quiet road of his choosing, then I found out why. Its a straight road, gentle decline and goes on for a good two miles. 'Right, stead as you go, knock it out of gear and switch off the engine'. We are still doing 35 MPH, after switching off I switched back on to get the gauges alive. Hopefully I don't need to stop too quickly without the servo. He assessed the noises and then commanded I restart and resume normal driving, knocking it in to forth and dropping the clutch did that. We returned to base.
The conclusion. In his yard was a '01' plate hippo, removable back and a 1.8 petrol under the bonnet. 'That one does exactly the same, only much worse' was his annoncement. He concluded that while the noise sounded like it was the engine it was infact the transmission. He suspected that either the onside front wheel bearing was begining to fail or the problem was in the IRD. This other Hippo had a nearly failed wheel bearing and was waiting in the queue of other cars sat about to be fixed. Apparently you need ear muffs to drive it due to this howling bearing.
Advice is to take the front off side hub apart and examine the bearings for evidence of the case hardening breaking up on the rollers. Replace as necessary and then try again. If this doen't do the trick, or nothing is found amiss with the bearing then the IRD is the next point of suspision.
This is, of course, completely different advice to the previous chap. However, after departing for home I set about testing a few theories. I conducted a rough 0 - 60 test. The result was 19 seconds. The Stig isn't going to worry I know but thats pretty good going for an engine with 'suspected low compression'. My 1.6L petrol Picasso can only manage 17 seconds after all. I also conducted another 'shutdown' test and I agree that I can still hear the noises even then.
I must admit I feel a bit of a prat that I had gone so far with the engine diagnosis, however drawing comfort from the fact the LR expert also seems to have drawn the wrong conclusion also.
Job on for tomorrow it seems. May not need that gasket set after all.
Skynet
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Darmain, just so you know, there is another Landrover garage in Melksham about half way down Snarlton Lane, Wiltshire 4x4 or something like that. They seem to know their stuff too
Darmain
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Darmain, just so you know, there is another Landrover garage in Melksham about half way down Snarlton Lane, Wiltshire 4x4 or something like that. They seem to know their stuff too
Hi Skynet. Thanks for that. Wiltshire Landrovers is the name of the place and it was Neil who seemed to think that the exhaust / head gasket was the problem. Not knocking him, its difficult to diagnose a problem at speed. The second guy recognosed the problem because he has experienced it first hand
I'm more and more convinced about this wheel bearing theory. I'm still driving the car and it is getting noisier. I'm going to let it continue like that until its obvious where the problem is.
Darmain
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Hey Darmein,
your original posts indicated that you were absolutely certain that the noise was engine RPM matched and definately not road speed.
Kinda threw us all.
You and me also Mark2. To be perfectly honest I'm still have no clear idea what is causing this problem.
{Thought dump}.
I would love to be able to load test the engine without the transmission to prove the engine one way or the other. That an't going to happen. So I've stopped treating the car like a wounded animal and am driving it quite hard now and its going like a rocket. I can't believe this is the performance of a damaged engine.
The original symptoms still stand, a hammering noise when under power. Its not gear related, the engine appears to be running as good as it always has. Its not loosing oil or water, there is no smoke at all, it starts well hot or cold. The engine oil was changed and the old oil was free of anything suspisious. The timing belts are in reasonable condition and, now I've got the covers off (and they are still off, waiting for a belt change) I find they are tensioned correctly.
Yet the noise is still there and appears to be at the same or similar frequency as the engine firing speed. It is getting louder, and I mean loud, and I think the problem will show itself in the not too distant future. I can feel vibration in the drivers seat and that is getting worse also, I can feel it in the gear stick but not in the handbrake. That vibration was not there before this problem appeared. It seems to be lower and forward of the driving position. Its not affected by steering. It is prominent from 30 to 50 MPH. It reduces at high speeds, as in 60 and above. It quietens down when the power is taken off BUT and this is a big BUT, at higher speeds (50ish) and going down hill, if I deck the clutch and cut the throttle I can still hear some of the noise.
What is spinning at 2000 RPM in the transmission at the 50 MPH? If that question can be answered then we might have a clue. The question that is now crossing my mind (and I know I must have suspected about every part of this bloody car in the last few weeks) is it the IRD??? Clue, when I bought the car and didn't know the problems these things have with the transmission, I inspected the underside on the lift and it was immediately apparent that it had a new VC and support bearings, as in brand new, they were spotlessly clean. Now why would someone sell a car after investing several hundred pounds in it?? That was a year ago. Is the IRD now giving up??
I spent this lunchtime crawling around the engine bay inspecting the exhaust system from manifolds to down pipe. No sign of a leak. I fired up the engine and quickly ran my hands around the gaskets before it got too hot. Nothing found. That is how stumped I am to identify this problem.
I am very tempted to find a garage that is selling another L series and take it for a test drive to see what the difference is.
I am an engineer by trade, I realise I am not that familar with the design of this car (although I'm getting to know it very well now
) but I am confident with working on cars, how they work, the types of problems and how to fix them. This one has got me completely stumped and its got three others with ideas but no firm diagnosis. The reason is you need to be in the engine bay at 50 MPH.My reasoning for posting on this site is two fold. First to share with other landrover enthusiasts the problems that I am having so you may be able to draw on whatever I eventually discover is the problem. Secondly, that there is the possibility that someone out there may say 'I know what that is'. There have been several postings with good ideas and I am grateful for every one of them.
I'm sorry if it is felt I have misled you, I didn't intend to and I make my best efforts to report the facts. Those facts are now changing because whatever is wrong is getting worse and I am wondering how long it is before I need my AA membership card to get home. When that happens I will gladly report what has happened, what needs replacing and any information that you can use to protect your cars from suffering a similar fate.
Having said all that I have to say the Freelander is still the most fun car I have owned and I am intending to get to the bottom of this problem and then have some fun with it.
Thanks for listening,
Dave
Chaser
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I'm not familiar with the L series diesel so forgive me if some of these ideas aren't relevant,
engine mount or any additional engine or IRD steady/support bracket.
crankshaft pulley vibration damper.
dual mass flywheel. (probably doesn't have one)
front propshaft CV joint and UJs.
VCU bearings and rubber bonding.
VCU damper.
uneven tyre wear. (try swapping around and see if noise changes).
maybe you could road test with the complete propshaft removed.
engine mount or any additional engine or IRD steady/support bracket.
crankshaft pulley vibration damper.
dual mass flywheel. (probably doesn't have one)
front propshaft CV joint and UJs.
VCU bearings and rubber bonding.
VCU damper.
uneven tyre wear. (try swapping around and see if noise changes).
maybe you could road test with the complete propshaft removed.
Darmain
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All ideas most welcome.
All mounts checks for condition and tightness. All checks out okay.
Were's that? Is this the belt tensioner, if so then all is well.
Doesn't have one to my knowledge.
Could be, haven't checked.
Was brand new a year ago, have done a visual and nothing seems out of place here.
Where is this? Will check the book.
Have done this, no joy. Tyre wear appears to be even in all respects.
A good idea, in fact an excellent idea. Also to check the rear diff mounts as well.
It was hammering well tonight on the way home. I wish it would just break so I would then know what the problem is.
Many thanks,
Dave
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Sounding more and more like UJ's or diff. I had a similar booming type noise, turned out to be two teeth broke off the diff pinion shaft gear ... see my nackered diff
Chaser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaser
crankshaft pulley vibration damper.
Were's that? Is this the belt tensioner, if so then all is well.
crankshaft pulley itself made up of two parts bonded by rubber insert, known to break apart, td4 s have them, L series may not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaser
VCU damper.
Where is this? Will check the book.
circular rubber vibration damper fixed to VCU casing with three bolts. again IF it has one.
Same thought occured to me, as per my recent experience :-
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/td4-crank-pully-clatter-66563.html
But,
I checked me Heinz Book and the L series doesn't seem to have the same type of vibration dampning pulley
Darmain
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Thanks for your thoughts chaps, I was a thinking tonight while I was a driving a long. Could it be a bowed prop? Sort of like an out of balance something feeling? Don't know how it would have got in that condition.
Chaser
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I think it's definitely going to help your diagnosis if you remove the complete propshaft and retest. You could then eliminate the front CV the UJs the VCU bearings and mounting rubbers and even the possibility of a bent shaft all in one hit.
If theres no change then I think you should drain the oil from the dreaded IRD and check if its got a silvery metallic appearance. I'm sure your well aware of the implications if that is the case. :Cry:
Fingers crossed.....
If theres no change then I think you should drain the oil from the dreaded IRD and check if its got a silvery metallic appearance. I'm sure your well aware of the implications if that is the case. :Cry:
Fingers crossed.....
