Disco 2 Great Truck No Diff Lock...

Hi There

I recently bought a 2003 Disco 2 TD5 to do up as an off road toy - it had had a full body off chassis overhaul the year before, genuinely its brand new underneath. Well way better than any I had seen in its price range anyway, I decided to take the risk and and have it. Its far from perfect on the exterior, with some well used bodywork, great looking from 10 meters but that is about it.

I was under it today assessing it for oil leaks and decide to check the transfer case for the internals for a CDL linkage and to my slightly expected disappointment it was not the right transfer case a 69D I believe....

So my options are now:
1. Dont worry and trust the three amigos never join me when off roading
2. Replace transfer box with one with factory internals,
3. Use Ashcroft kit to fit internals, not sure how i feel about that one.
4. Put it up for swaps.

Anyone been here before with a good truck but not sure what to do? All constructive input welcome.

My advice is to choose one of options 2 or 3. ... untill then pray to not get the amigos while you are off road on some hard tracks

My car was not equipped originally with cdl but the previous owner had to change the tbox and they put on an earlier one with cdl. When i bought the car it was not connected. A few weeks ago i bought a linkage from Ashcroft and installed. It is now fully operational.
If your tbox is in good condition contact Ashcroft and buy the cdl kit. As the tbox should come off for the mod it is also a good opportunity to make some maintenance on it (seals, bearings, and so on). You can also buy all needed parts from Ashcroft.

Do you desperately need cdl? The earlier lt230 transfer boxes had it and it was re-introduced very late on. If the car is running right try it off road and see if the traction control does what you need. I am not sure why the three amigos should appear.

I have a spare TB out of a EDC disco 1 with diff lock if that's any use??

brianconwy said:

Do you desperately need cdl? The earlier lt230 transfer boxes had it and it was re-introduced very late on. If the car is running right try it off road and see if the traction control does what you need. I am not sure why the three amigos should appear.

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They can appearv out of the blue for various reasons and if they do the TC is inhibited and you can end up without traction in deep mud... don't ask me how i know

sierrafery said:

They can appearv out of the blue for various reasons and if they do the TC is inhibited and you can end up without traction in deep mud... don't ask me how i know

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I understand now. I had mistakenly thought that the three amigos were being linked by the op to the transfer case being the wrong one, rather than the reliance on electronics for traction.

sierrafery said:

They can appearv out of the blue for various reasons and if they do the TC is inhibited and you can end up without traction in deep mud... don't ask me how i know

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The lord save us from modern electronics. Don't remember the cdl in my D1 ever crying, shouting for its mummy and refusing to play.
Better off with a cdl and airlockers.

Stanleysteamer said:

The lord save us from modern electronics. Don't remember the cdl in my D1 ever crying, shouting for its mummy and refusing to play.
Better off with a cdl and airlockers.

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I think the CDL in a D2 is the same as the D1 - entirely mechanical from the LT230 and not prone to shouting for its mummy. A properly equipped D2 has the benefits of TC, ABS and HDC in addition to the CDL you had in a D1. The problem is that LR thought that they only needed TC off road and could dispense with the CDL. For a manual D2 in particular, that was not a good call.
You are right though, CDL and lockers is probably the most reliable and effective option, though I do find HDC useful.

Si Click said:

I think the CDL in a D2 is the same as the D1 - entirely mechanical from the LT230 and not prone to shouting for its mummy. A properly equipped D2 has the benefits of TC, ABS and HDC in addition to the CDL you had in a D1. The problem is that LR thought that they only needed TC off road and could dispense with the CDL. For a manual D2 in particular, that was not a good call.
You are right though, CDL and lockers is probably the most reliable and effective option, though I do find HDC useful.

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Yeah and as @sierrafery has just pointed out, the TC can sprout coloured lights, scream for its mummy, take its ball and refuse to play right when you don't want it to, and you never want it too. If OP can get a cdl to work then I'd suggest he does it, then he would be a lot better off especially when all the electrical carp won't play ball! If it was that good then the guys doing trials would have it all the time and dispense with lockers etc.

ps, the one time I considered using HDC, in the snow in the Dales, I chickened out. Having seen what a mess ABS made of trying to brake in ice and snow.
I actually wrote a long letter to LRM, which they published, about the dangers of trying to control a skid in an automatic.
Short answer, if in doubt, put the gear box into neutral. It was still being in a low gear that nearly put us in the ditch until I screamed at my wife to ram it into neutral. (My hands were too busy to take one off the wheel!) Got control back right away.
I have posted elsewhere about going on a skidpan course, it is money well spent and got us out of trouble that day though I had to do a little high speed thinking out of the box.
But to be fair, I'll have to find a safe environment to do it and then try HDC. Can't slag it off until I have tried it!

Stanleysteamer said:

Yeah and as @sierrafery has just pointed out, the TC can sprout coloured lights, scream for its mummy, take its ball and refuse to play right when you don't want it to, and you never want it too.

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Quite right, but that is the TC system not the CDL, which (if fitted) is no more likely to fail than a D1.
The LR decision to remove the CDL from the D2 on launch and rely on TC was a mistake. Not only because it left you open to such failures, but because it works across axles. Therefore if one wheel spins, the TC will enable the opposite wheel to continue to turn, but lack of a CDL removes power to the other axle until full traction is regained. In essence a manual D2 without CDL is not far off a 2WD vehicle. The auto provides some locking, but is still not great.

Stanleysteamer said:

ps, the one time I considered using HDC, in the snow in the Dales, I chickened out. Having seen what a mess ABS made of trying to brake in ice and snow.
I actually wrote a long letter to LRM, which they published, about the dangers of trying to control a skid in an automatic.
Short answer, if in doubt, put the gear box into neutral. It was still being in a low gear that nearly put us in the ditch until I screamed at my wife to ram it into neutral. (My hands were too busy to take one off the wheel!) Got control back right away.
I have posted elsewhere about going on a skidpan course, it is money well spent and got us out of trouble that day though I had to do a little high speed thinking out of the box.
But to be fair, I'll have to find a safe environment to do it and then try HDC. Can't slag it off until I have tried it!

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Can you explain that in more detail? I get that an auto box in Hi Ratio could select an inappropriate gear in a low traction skid-type situation, but am not sure why neutral would be preferable. I am also not sure why in Lo Ratio with CDL engaged, Manual selected and the selected gear locked you would consider HDC unsafe. I have used it on steep muddy slopes, gravelly, slopes and icy slopes and every time it has been faultless. Quite spooky the first time you do it and the noise is off-putting at first; but I have never lost traction for more than an instant.

Found this on line. D2 using HDC down a steep icy slope. Drama level zero.

Si Click said:

Quite right, but that is the TC system not the CDL, which (if fitted) is no more likely to fail than a D1.
The LR decision to remove the CDL from the D2 on launch and rely on TC was a mistake. Not only because it left you open to such failures, but because it works across axles. Therefore if one wheel spins, the TC will enable the opposite wheel to continue to turn, but lack of a CDL removes power to the other axle until full traction is regained. In essence a manual D2 without CDL is not far off a 2WD vehicle. The auto provides some locking, but is still not great.

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Didn't realise it was as bad as that!!!!
That explains why I got stuck in it on flat grass just behind my house on a housing estate. What rubbish it is!!!

Si Click said:

Found this on line. D2 using HDC down a steep icy slope. Drama level zero.

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Interesting! The place I thought about using it was a very steep hil with a tight S-bend in it in the Dales countryside. I agree, no drama, no sounds of ABS or anything.

Stanleysteamer said:

Didn't realise it was as bad as that!!!!
That explains why I got stuck in it on flat grass just behind my house on a housing estate. What rubbish it is!!!

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You might find Andrew St Pierre White's video on how he fell out with LR on this issue interesting.

Si Click said:

Can you explain that in more detail? I get that an auto box in Hi Ratio could select an inappropriate gear in a low traction skid-type situation, but am not sure why neutral would be preferable. I am also not sure why in Lo Ratio with CDL engaged, Manual selected and the selected gear locked you would consider HDC unsafe. I have used it on steep muddy slopes, gravelly, slopes and icy slopes and every time it has been faultless. Quite spooky the first time you do it and the noise is off-putting at first; but I have never lost traction for more than an instant.

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Right, as if I was driving a manual old school type Land rover, I put my auto td5 with no cdl into low range 1 or 2, cannot remember exactly, and went slowly down the hill, it was OK, braking where necessary, but trying not to. Just as we were bottoming out where the S-bend started it suddenly went into a skid so I span the wheel to try to get it to where I wanted it without braking so that the wheels wouldn't lock up and would continue to give me directional control. It didn't work because, being in a gear the engine braking acted like foot braking and stopped the wheels keeping directional control. As soon as the wife rammed it into neutral, this stopped and I regained steering/directional control. Panic over. Drove through the rest of the s-bend and back up the other side no problem. I should say that up until this point the low range 2 or 1 and gentle braking had worked coming down various other hills, past all the other types in other vehicles too scared to go down them. In a skid situation, in order to have full control of steering the wheels need to be free to spin, i.e clutch down in a geared car or neutral, or possibly D in an auto. As soon as you brake or lock the wheels in anyother way, you lose steering and just slide in whatever direction the weight of the vehicle/camber of the road etc makes it go. First lesson you get taught on a skid pan.
This is the essence of the article I wrote for the mag.
So you mention cdl engaged - I don't have it.
I wasn't in Hi-range.
I was going down hill so not looking for traction, rather looking for braking.
I learnt to off road in an old manual Water board V8 110 which only had cdl. I was amazed at the steep extremely muddy slopes it would go up, step out and you fell over! Ditto for coming down, low range 1st or second, cdl engaged foot off the brake to the max and declutch when control is lost to be able to regain it.
You mention traction with HDC, I thought hdc (hill descent control) was only for going down slippery hills. Am i wrong, can it be used for going up them too? Or by traction did you mean braking, i.e. a kind of traction in the opposite sense, which I do understand.
I WILL have to try it!!

Si Click said:

You might find Andrew St Pierre White's video on how he fell out with LR on this issue interesting.

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Absolutely great!!!
So glad I still have 2 D1s!
Also glad my D2 is auto and I NEVER thought I'd say that! I HATE autos with a vengeance but if you need one to get CDL bakc then you need it.
Also explains why old school D1 driving don't work with a manual D2. Simple when you know how!

Stanleysteamer said:

being in a gear the engine braking acted like foot braking and stopped the wheels keeping directional control. As soon as the wife rammed it into neutral, this stopped and I regained steering/directional control. Panic over. Drove through the rest of the s-bend and back up the other side no problem. I should say that up until this point the low range 2 or 1 and gentle braking had worked coming down various other hills, past all the other types in other vehicles too scared to go down them. In a skid situation, in order to have full control of steering the wheels need to be free to spin, i.e clutch down in a geared car or neutral, or possibly D in an auto. As soon as you brake or lock the wheels in anyother way, you lose steering and just slide in whatever direction the weight of the vehicle/camber of the road etc makes it go. First lesson you get taught on a skid pan.

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OK I can see where you are coming from, although for me selecting neutral would seem counter-intuitive on a slope as while you regain wheel rotation and therefore steering, you lose any ability to restrict speed. As you were bottoming out I guess this was not an issue and steering was more important. I don't think the issue would have arisen if you had been using HDC as that effectively does what you suggest, but much more quickly enabling you to both steer and retain traction with the road. Note that I am using traction in its definition sense "the adhesive friction of a body on some surface" and that it is a requirement for both accelerating and braking.

Stanleysteamer said:

You mention traction with HDC, I thought hdc (hill descent control) was only for going down slippery hills. Am i wrong, can it be used for going up them too? Or by traction did you mean braking, i.e. a kind of traction in the opposite sense, which I do understand.
I WILL have to try it!!

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Yes, using traction as the term for the effective adhesion of a tyre to a surface regardless of going up or down.
HDC itself will not work going upwards because as soon as you touch the throttle the system switches to TC. Similarly if you touch the brakes it defaults to ABS. You need to keep both feet off the pedals and trust the system.
However, going up steep slopes it is well worth having it engaged as it does work going backwards and will sort out a safe recovery if you don't make it up the slope.
The only downside to the D2 system (other than potential failure at an inopportune moment) is that the system needs movement of between 6-8 mph to wake it up. After that it will limit speed to between 4-6 mph, physics permitting. Worth engaging on the approach to the slope so it is ready as the slope starts.