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Getting Gwen the Mini to Run.
- Thread starter DanClarke
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Dont pay much attention to getting timing as per charts/figures in a book.
Your engine needs as much timing advance as you can give it without the engine pinking under load
Tune carb by the book if you like but then give it a little more fuel cause that's what they like
I've never felt the need to change a jet in an SU, just try different needles, jet doesn't wear very much
I built engines on a budget and they were better than motors that just had money thrown at them
Your engine needs as much timing advance as you can give it without the engine pinking under load
Tune carb by the book if you like but then give it a little more fuel cause that's what they like
I've never felt the need to change a jet in an SU, just try different needles, jet doesn't wear very much
I built engines on a budget and they were better than motors that just had money thrown at them
Going to comment on a post from another fred here 
.
An AFR gauge is just a flashly gauge that you can do nothing about on a NA carbed engine, well maybe Idle. So dont waste your beer tokens
I have said before there are so many variables involved with tuning on AFR, You cannot tune a carbed engine with needle as much as you can with an electronically controled engine where you can control the amount of "squirt and spark" under so many different conditions, many of which exceed ideal.
I would start with a standard needle for that engine (forget the stage 2 head) this will then give a base.
Needle/jet position can be changed slightly/enough to cope with the head.
As for the stinky petrol smell.
You also have to remember the tank is in the boot and not really sealed to the passenger area so check all the pipes in there to.
J
.An AFR gauge is just a flashly gauge that you can do nothing about on a NA carbed engine, well maybe Idle. So dont waste your beer tokens
I have said before there are so many variables involved with tuning on AFR, You cannot tune a carbed engine with needle as much as you can with an electronically controled engine where you can control the amount of "squirt and spark" under so many different conditions, many of which exceed ideal.
I would start with a standard needle for that engine (forget the stage 2 head) this will then give a base.
Needle/jet position can be changed slightly/enough to cope with the head.
As for the stinky petrol smell.
You also have to remember the tank is in the boot and not really sealed to the passenger area so check all the pipes in there to
.J
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I think we are both singing from the same hymn sheet here, in perfect harmony!!
As for the timing, as you have now got it going @DanClarke, get it warmed up then take it to a quiet place away from people you could annoy.
Unlock the dizzy and wind the tickover in as far as you can, then move the dizzy backwards and forwards until it sounds to be at its highest revs, if you have a rev counter in the car you could look at that , although it may not register slight changes. I'd leave the vacuum still connected.
Lock it back up then give it a blast.
Then find a hill to drive up, put it in as high a gear as you can and see if it pinks when you drive up it with your foot flat to the floor. If it does then it needs retarding a bit because the vacuum advance is advancing it too much.
Then do the same on the flat but in all gears, if it pinks at any time then, as above, it needs retarding a bit as the advance weights are advancing it too much.
Strobes get you into the ball park, but not even that very much as the figures for advance have had to change a lot due to the prevalence of unleaded and now E petrol.
When petrol just went unleaded you had to retard your timing. As we found out when, despite retarding the BX to the new figures given, it still back fired to the point of blowing a centre box apart.
My neighbour who ran the garage did a lot more digging and we found out it needed to be retarded far more than the figure given. What it does now with ethanol I have no idea. But I feel that it may improve things at high comp ratios as the old skool way of preventing detonation was to put a little bit of pure alcohol in your tank! I used to pinch the Gestetner fluid from work for it!
This thread backs this all up although there is a bit of BS talked somewhere in there.
Timing Alteration For Running On Unleaded - Problems, Questions and Technical
Timing Alteration For Running On Unleaded - posted in Problems, Questions and Technical: Hi I have a metro 1275 engine High compression 12HA83AA The book says 11 Degrees BTDC this is for leaded petrol do i need to adjust it for unleaded, the reason i ask is i had super unleaded with red-ex...
Really, some people!
Anyway, best of luck with it.
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Thanks for this. It is certainly a path I can tread if my willpower breaks. TBH, I had it running last week (although it wanted to die at stops/traffic lights) so maybe a few runs around the locality will tell me enough. There is nothing I find more anxiety producing than being in live traffic with a car that wants to just "die" at every opportunity it can, it makes my teeth itch.I think we are both singing from the same hymn sheet here, in perfect harmony!!
As for the timing, as you have now got it going @DanClarke, get it warmed up then take it to a quiet place away from people you could annoy.
Unlock the dizzy and wind the tickover in as far as you can, then move the dizzy backwards and forwards until it sounds to be at its highest revs, if you have a rev counter in the car you could look at that , although it may not register slight changes. I'd leave the vacuum still connected.
Lock it back up then give it a blast.
Then find a hill to drive up, put it in as high a gear as you can and see if it pinks when you drive up it with your foot flat to the floor. If it does then it needs retarding a bit because the vacuum advance is advancing it too much.
Then do the same on the flat but in all gears, if it pinks at any time then, as above, it needs retarding a bit as the advance weights are advancing it too much.
Strobes get you into the ball park, but not even that very much as the figures for advance have had to change a lot due to the prevalence of unleaded and now E petrol.
When petrol just went unleaded you had to retard your timing. As we found out when, despite retarding the BX to the new figures given, it still back fired to the point of blowing a centre box apart.
My neighbour who ran the garage did a lot more digging and we found out it needed to be retarded far more than the figure given. What it does now with ethanol I have no idea. But I feel that it may improve things at high comp ratios as the old skool way of preventing detonation was to put a little bit of pure alcohol in your tank! I used to pinch the Gestetner fluid from work for it!
This thread backs this all up although there is a bit of BS talked somewhere in there.
The Pratt concerned should just have emptied his tank and filled it up with E5 or super-unleaded. But he went off on tangents like a dick! All he'd done wrong was put lower RON in! Nothing else had changed, nowt bust so nowt needed fixing.Timing Alteration For Running On Unleaded - Problems, Questions and Technical
Timing Alteration For Running On Unleaded - posted in Problems, Questions and Technical: Hi I have a metro 1275 engine High compression 12HA83AA The book says 11 Degrees BTDC this is for leaded petrol do i need to adjust it for unleaded, the reason i ask is i had super unleaded with red-ex...www.theminiforum.co.uk
Really, some people!
Anyway, best of luck with it.
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Thanks for thisGoing to comment on a post from another fred here
An AFR gauge is just a flashly gauge that you can do nothing about on a NA carbed engine, well maybe Idle. So dont waste your beer tokens
I have said before there are so many variables involved with tuning on AFR, You cannot tune a carbed engine with needle as much as you can with an electronically controled engine where you can control the amount of "squirt and spark" under so many different conditions, many of which exceed ideal.
I would start with a standard needle for that engine (forget the stage 2 head) this will then give a base.
Needle/jet position can be changed slightly/enough to cope with the head.
As for the stinky petrol smell.
You also have to remember the tank is in the boot and not really sealed to the passenger area so check all the pipes in there to
J
Problem with "Standard Needle" is that there's hundreds of the beggars in the catalogue.
What is in there is a BBA. Which is a pretty straight profile. Not sure what a 1276 Metro engine in a Mini ought to be using.
and that isn't even in the list of recommended needles from the WinSU recommendations.
It suggests a BCD needle as a best match although it says it will be 1.9% too rich at the top end and 1.2% too lean in mid-range.
I guess one can get a bit too anal about it all and worry too blooming much. Maybe a suck it and see approach will be just fine.
How "Over-rich" does it have to be to ruin the engine?
If I can get it running reliably and "anxiety-free" first, I can worry about "performance" later.
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BDLThanks for this
Problem with "Standard Needle" is that there's hundreds of the beggars in the catalogue.
What is in there is a BBA. Which is a pretty straight profile. Not sure what a 1276 Metro engine in a Mini ought to be using.
View attachment 334802
and that isn't even in the list of recommended needles from the WinSU recommendations.
It suggests a BCD needle as a best match although it says it will be 1.9% too rich at the top end and 1.2% too lean in mid-range.
I guess one can get a bit too anal about it all and worry too blooming much. Maybe a suck it and see approach will be just fine.
How "Over-rich" does it have to be to ruin the engine?
If I can get it running reliably and "anxiety-free" first, I can worry about "performance" later.
As it also says in the thread I gave you the link to and as I suggested a while back.
That was the standard MG Metro one.
"BDL - MG Metro standard needle" from Keith Calver the guru.
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I have a test run I use all the time, a lot of it is country lanes where I can do all sorts of things like driving stop-start to simulate driving in traffic. If you can find one like that you can simulate what you are feared of in safety and without annoying anyone.Thanks for this. It is certainly a path I can tread if my willpower breaks. TBH, I had it running last week (although it wanted to die at stops/traffic lights) so maybe a few runs around the locality will tell me enough. There is nothing I find more anxiety producing than being in live traffic with a car that wants to just "die" at every opportunity it can, it makes my teeth itch.
If you are at all worried about it dying at standstill once warm, tweak the tickover so it is a bit higher it won't hurt the car. Maybe nearer 1K than the 750 or whatever is recommended?
The recommended thing to do with the idle was to feck around with it as suggested by lifting the piston etc then once you thought you had it right lower the jet half a flat.
Don't know how you would do that on a HIF though.
You can see that once fitted I never had to touch mine as I cannot remember!!
You could do a lot of fecking around with a caliper end measuring how far down the jet moves as you turn the screw (?) a full turn. Then relate it to what you have read on tuning the HIF carb in the stuff someone sent you.
Can you heel and toe?
Or when approaching lights, put it in neutral, brake with the left foot and use the accelerator to keep it running!
(If you have never braked with your left foot, practise a bit, you don't have to push hard! like when dipping the clutch!!
)Thanks for this
Problem with "Standard Needle" is that there's hundreds of the beggars in the catalogue.
What is in there is a BBA. Which is a pretty straight profile. Not sure what a 1276 Metro engine in a Mini ought to be using.
View attachment 334802
and that isn't even in the list of recommended needles from the WinSU recommendations.
It suggests a BCD needle as a best match although it says it will be 1.9% too rich at the top end and 1.2% too lean in mid-range.
I guess one can get a bit too anal about it all and worry too blooming much. Maybe a suck it and see approach will be just fine.
How "Over-rich" does it have to be to ruin the engine?
If I can get it running reliably and "anxiety-free" first, I can worry about "performance" later.
If I said it like this.
Top end you are pushing it so rich is maybe not a bad thing.
Mid range you are cruising little bit weak is again not an issue.
When you put it under load it needs a little more fuel, when you put your foot down the piston does not move up at the same time so you will draw more fuel with less air in until the piston catches up. Due to the extra air being sucked in across the Venturi.
It’s hard to explain. Webber’s for example have a little pump so if/when you put your foot down it squirts extra fuel in (for that second)
The SU uses the extra air speed across the jet when you open the butterfly (put your foot down) to give extra fuel till the piston catches up and the needle delivers more fuel, so it basically goes rich under load.
Now the speed the piston catches up is down to the other 2 factors oil/spring. So I guess you can guess thinner/thicker oil or lighter/heavier spring.
But that’s way more than you need to worry about for a daily.
Hope that makes some sense, and hope I got it right it’s been a while
J
.
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A BDL needle has been ordered (<£20 inc. P&P) so not a huge outlay.
AND I have finally heard from the British Mini Club regarding their evaluation of the car.
They have valued it as being worth £12,000.
So that is 926 times my outlay for the winning ticket.
What did my wife say....? "Great, sell it for £12,000".
She just doesn't get it really.
AND I have finally heard from the British Mini Club regarding their evaluation of the car.
They have valued it as being worth £12,000.
So that is 926 times my outlay for the winning ticket.
What did my wife say....? "Great, sell it for £12,000".
She just doesn't get it really.
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Great!A BDL needle has been ordered (<£20 inc. P&P) so not a huge outlay.
AND I have finally heard from the British Mini Club regarding their evaluation of the car.
They have valued it as being worth £12,000.
So that is 926 times my outlay for the winning ticket.
What did my wife say....? "Great, sell it for £12,000".
She just doesn't get it really.
Looking forward to how it gets on.
I did mine because it came up and then a mate gave me an old MG Metro minus the seats. I had always had a hankering for doing this, or one like it.
So I did it and it didn't disappoint at all, performance wise, but the cooling system continuously lost coolant, despite changing the head gasket, it was noisy, bumpy ride and ( a surprise this one) it was very thirsty until hot. So running it to and from work, 8 miles each way, the fuel bill was high compared to running it as a 998.
Then the gearbox started to whine in top.
Then at MOT it passed but I was warned it would need welding to the area around the rear subframe mounts. This after I had welded in plates to the front footwells.
So I cut my losses and sold it, together with the old engine and box, for what I paid for it.
No regrets.
Yours sounds like a better proposition.
I hope you like it and keep it but if you don't you'll have done a real KEV.
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I did go play with it a little bit today. I found that it demanded choke until warmed up or it just petered out and died.Great!
Looking forward to how it gets on.
I did mine because it came up and then a mate gave me an old MG Metro minus the seats. I had always had a hankering for doing this, or one like it.
So I did it and it didn't disappoint at all, performance wise, but the cooling system continuously lost coolant, despite changing the head gasket, it was noisy, bumpy ride and ( a surprise this one) it was very thirsty until hot. So running it to and from work, 8 miles each way, the fuel bill was high compared to running it as a 998.
Then the gearbox started to whine in top.
Then at MOT it passed but I was warned it would need welding to the area around the rear subframe mounts. This after I had welded in plates to the front footwells.
So I cut my losses and sold it, together with the old engine and box, for what I paid for it.
No regrets.
Yours sounds like a better proposition.
I hope you like it and keep it but if you don't you'll have done a real KEV.
Then I tried giving it some beans and it popped & farted in the intake. So as I had the dizzy "snugged but movable" I moved it around a bit and found a sweet spot where it would rev flawlessly to 5,000 without hesitation.
I then did the bolt up tight.I was then able to wind the idle down to c.900 (where it should be sat).
Now this is on the drive with no load so it doesn't mean too much, but it is looking promising already on the BBA needle and will probably be better on the BDL.
BTW here is my analysis of the two needles.
ShaunPDisco
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Just read through the whole thread……cant find anything Land Rover related!!! None the less, really pleased to hear it is going. It will inspire me to start work on one of the projects I have in the barn!!
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Well it did say member projects, didn't say LR only
I did go play with it a little bit today. I found that it demanded choke until warmed up or it just petered out and died.
Then I tried giving it some beans and it popped & farted in the intake. So as I had the dizzy "snugged but movable" I moved it around a bit and found a sweet spot where it would rev flawlessly to 5,000 without hesitation.
I was then able to wind the idle down to c.900 (where it should be sat).
Now this is on the drive with no load so it doesn't mean too much, but it is looking promising already on the BBA needle and will probably be better on the BDL.
BTW here is my analysis of the two needles.
View attachment 334874
That’s what a chokes for.
But all I see is a leaner needle through the range. What are the numbers across the top?
Without a good run and a look at the plugs, the difference I see there could be changed by moving the jet.
What’s the profile on the new needle compared to the old?
J
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Some good questions. I guess the numbers are distances along the needle with the three colours indicating the three key areas on the needle.
Well, sort of. A Mini choke doesn't normally have to be left on for very long at all, certainly not until it is completely warmed up.
I once had a girlfriend whose dad was a physics lecturer at Loughborough Uni. He started their Mini and put the choke back in almost straight away! I couldn't believe it!
I drove that car and TBH it behaved exactly like all other Minis I have driven. If this was the case my 998 would have been on choke all the way to work from my home and thus would have drunk the juice. Which it didn't.
More or less, except.... see below.
Except at tick-over and the change from that to cruise which TBH, is where your car spends a whole lot of time! Hesitation at that point would be a killer.
I am very looking forward to how much better it runs with the BDL.
Or not!
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I know it's what a chokes for relly, but was surprised it needed choke on a non-icy day.
The two rows of numbers are the needle diameters at each of their 16 stations along their length from fat base to pointy end.
So if you put a thicker needle in a fixed 0.1" jet the delivery size gets smaller and the fuelling goes leaner.
The diameters are from the official SU needle catalogue book.
So, IF the suction action on the piston pulls the same then the different needle puts a different thickness in the fixed jet and it of course results in weaker/richer mixture as that changes.
The figures ARE the profile of the jet.
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The thing about needing choke.I know it's what a chokes for relly, but was surprised it needed choke on a non-icy day.
The two rows of numbers are the needle diameters at each of their 16 stations along their length from fat base to pointy end.
So if you put a thicker needle in a fixed 0.1" jet the delivery size gets smaller and the fuelling goes leaner.
The diameters are from the official SU needle catalogue book.
So, IF the suction action on the piston pulls the same then the different needle puts a different thickness in the fixed jet and it of course results in weaker/richer mixture as that changes.
The figures ARE the profile of the jet.
I suspect it's been a while since you drove a car that has a choke!
Cars usually needed choke first thing, even in warmer weather, you were just able to put them back in faster when it was warmer.
W's Beetle based car doesn't have one. It has twin Webers, which is a pain. you have to pump the accelerator to get fuel into the chambers and then once started keep fiddling with the accelerator until it gets warm enough to be driven. It is NOT a car you can drive once you have got it started. My B series needs choke but once started you can progressively push it back in.
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Thanks, you are right, last car I had with a manual choke was my Vauxhall Victor FB 1503cc.
Everything since has had an automatic choke or has been injection/ecu controlled.
