Freelander 1 Gearbox advice

Hi everyone

My gearbox is giving me a few problems on hot days, especially after being stationary for a while (with the engine on). If I am sitting in traffic, or doing a lot of short stop/starts, the gears get extremely hard to change. And when I say extremely, I mean I am using all my strength to force the gearstick up or down. Its almost like the gearbox has become a solid mass.

The next morning the gears will change as per normal.

Any advice? The fluids were changed on its last service a few months ago and the clutch master/slave were changed recently too.

Its a 2001 Freebie 1 1.8 petrol.

Thanks

Ian

Sounds like the wrong oil was used - however, you'd expect that to be under stress while in gear.

Presumably there was a reason the master/slave was replaced. I'm wondering if what ever the fault was, wasn't the hydraulics, but a cracked slave bracket which is common on the PG1 gearboxes. Maybe when stationary more heat is permeating to it and its getting softer and flexing more. Along the same lines, it could be the actuating arm getting stiff/seizing as it goes through the bell housing and its worse with permeated heat.

Nothing definitive in my suggestions - just thoughts.

What is the situation if you try to engage gear with the engine stopped ? (when it is otherwise difficult when running)
Also, does the 'feel' of the clutch alter with the 'problem'

Do you get any form of 'grating' noise - gear crunch noise when the 'problem' is happening ?

Why was the clutch master / slave unit changed ?

Have you used the garage before that changed the fluids ? - also, why the decision to change the fluids in the first place. Something must have triggered your desire to change the gearbox oil and clutch M/S unit.

there be a clue in them there answers somewhere

Apologies for the delay, my internet has been out of order...a nightmare for a self employed web designer...

With the engine stopped (immediately after it occurs), it is still really stiff. However, once the engine is cold again, the gears change as normal. The clutch is the same whether it happens or not.

No grating noise when its happening, other than a pre-existing reverse gear grating noise when changing gear, no matter how far I press the clutch pedal.

The clutch m/s cylinder disintegrated during a trip to France whilst overtaking an idiotic driver at "probably..." more speed than I should have been doing at the time. It was replaced by a Landrover main dealer under my insurance. The bracket was also changed at the same time. They definitely changed it as they gave me the old one back, along with the old m/s unit.

The garage I use is RCV in East Peckham, a local Landrover specialist. I trust them implicitly and use them for everything to do with this car. My old garage was messing me around all the time and not doing work I asked them to do, mostly because they couldnt be bothered. I am still finding stuff they have charged me for which wasnt actually done. The last thing I paid them to do was a major service, which included a complete fluid flush and new fluids. I started getting oil warning lights and noticed the coolant was the same coolant I put in in France (it is a distinctive muddy purple colour) and that is was low. It was obvious they hadnt done the major service, or if they had, they had not done everything they said they did so I made the decision to find another garage and get the work done again.

One of the very first things I asked RCV to do was another major service and fluid flush to make sure it was actually done, and that it was done properly. Since then, they are the only mechanics I will let touch my car (locally at least).

I would take it straight back to RCV to sort out the gear problem, but I'm self-employed and am between clients right now, so I was hoping it was something I could sort out.

For what it's worth, I would highly recommend RCV to anyone in Kent or close by

I can only suggest that you change the gearbox oil asap and check the contents carefully. although I very much doubt fluid is the issue - it may well be something mechanical inside the gearbox/ - Sorry I cannot be more helpful. It does not sound clutch related at all. Very strange indeed.
Joe

How old is the clutch? In miles.
Mike

The bracket was replaced with the hydraulics. This may just have been done "because its what you do when you change the hydraulics" - but if it was actually broke, what caused it? I'd get someone to press the clutch peddle and look at how the slave actuates the release arm. If the slave is getting pushed back before the arm moves - the arm is seizing. You could try this cold and hot to see if there's any differences. The slave is just clipped into the bracket, so it may move a bit as the clutch is actuated, but f there's a lot of movement, or the bracket is flexing, I'd suggest the arm is seizing.

I agree with Joe though, if this is happening stationary with the engine off, then its unlikely to be the clutch.

I'd therefore change the oil in the gearbox and make sure the stuff going in is definitely the right spec. Search on here for the spec for your gearbox, and if in any doubt ask away.

If the fluid levels were too high would it cause a problem with high pressure when hot?

Skinny Mike said:

How old is the clutch? In miles.
Mike

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It's not been changed since I've had it and I've done more than 60,000 miles. The actual mileage on the clock is just over 120,000 miles.

Pluribus said:

It's not been changed since I've had it and I've done more than 60,000 miles. The actual mileage on the clock is just over 120,000 miles.

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On the works Van (my landies auto) the other month, it started to get very difficult to put it in gear after driving it for a while.
Guess what, clutch was cream crackered. And 60,000 miles on a clutch is quite good. Obviously I can't comment on how long a freelander clutch lasts.
Mike

Alibro said:

If the fluid levels were too high would it cause a problem with high pressure when hot?

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wouldn't have thought so, it sounds more like a linkage / selector issue. The PG1 change fork assembly is quite complex along with the reverse lock etc. There is no pressurised oil as such - no pump - it is splash lubed then some passes through various galleries.
I agree with GG though that a visual on the clutch operating arm both cold and hot operation would be informative however the engine off change problem 'seems' to rule it out - also no change in feel of clutch. - BUT, the visual must be checked !

Got to get the fluid out first - fill it with straight ATF to start with. !
Joe

GrumpyGel said:

The bracket was replaced with the hydraulics. This may just have been done "because its what you do when you change the hydraulics" - but if it was actually broke, what caused it? I'd get someone to press the clutch peddle and look at how the slave actuates the release arm. If the slave is getting pushed back before the arm moves - the arm is seizing. You could try this cold and hot to see if there's any differences. The slave is just clipped into the bracket, so it may move a bit as the clutch is actuated, but f there's a lot of movement, or the bracket is flexing, I'd suggest the arm is seizing.

I agree with Joe though, if this is happening stationary with the engine off, then its unlikely to be the clutch.

I'd therefore change the oil in the gearbox and make sure the stuff going in is definitely the right spec. Search on here for the spec for your gearbox, and if in any doubt ask away.

Click to expand...

The gear stick moves as per normal if the engine is cold.

There was some slight damage to the bracket when they gave it back to me, but I dont remember what it was. I do remember it was very small so I attributed it to damaged caused at the time and thought nothing more of it.

I drove it today and there was no problem at all the entire trip, it only happens when the engine gets really hot or there are a lot of quick stop/starts in heavy traffic.

I dont have the means of getting under the car at the moment to check out the bracket but I will as soon as I do.

Alibro said:

If the fluid levels were too high would it cause a problem with high pressure when hot?

Click to expand...

Is there a way of easily checking this? I dont think RCV would make a mistake like this, their work has always been above perfect for me.

Pluribus said:

The gear stick moves as per normal if the engine is cold.

There was some slight damage to the bracket when they gave it back to me, but I dont remember what it was. I do remember it was very small so I attributed it to damaged caused at the time and thought nothing more of it.

I drove it today and there was no problem at all the entire trip, it only happens when the engine gets really hot or there are a lot of quick stop/starts in heavy traffic.

I dont have the means of getting under the car at the moment to check out the bracket but I will as soon as I do.

Click to expand...

You don't get under to check the bracket - its on the top/side of the gearbox and easily visible just standing in front of the car and leaning over a little.

Not sure if the PG1 can be overfilled? You basically put oil in via the fill hole until it starts spilling out. You'd have to be filling it from the wrong point, if there are any other 'holes' in the case.

Shows how much I know about the K series engine...I'll take a look in the morning.

If the clutch arm is moving as it should - both cold and hot. -
then try this to attempt to assess the clutch - you said that when the problem arose you could 'force' it in to gear. Ok, do this then experiment with the clutch in that gear - for example - does the engine rev freely in gear with the clutch down, is the biting point of the clutch the same or does it seem to drag a bit / a lot ?

Looking at all that has been said so far an internal gearbox selector issue would be high up on my list - although (and I am not overly familiar with the K series) I am also wondering if the crankshaft thrust bearings are allowing the crank to move forward effectively pulling the flywheel /clutch slightly away from the release bearing ........
I have seen this on other engines (Talbot 2 ltr engines in rally cars suffered from this - also had a virtually identical issue on the ford Kent 711m Block units in highly modded state with progressive endfloat and crank shifting forwards!!!)
Using a pry bar it can usually be possible to check for crankshaft end play at the front pulley. - but that is an off the wall possibility - but a said - I have seen this before under those symptoms.
Pondering -
Joe

Does sound like something is internally dying on the box.

There's not really a lot in the selector linkage that could be affected by heat, unless something has jammed or melted?

Could be something very odd has happened to the oil, but it would have to jump to the viscocity of tar to jam up movement that badly. If it's doing it with the engine off something mechanical has gone awry, and won't be clutch related unless the shaft is moving around in it's bearings - which with a non strengthened PG1 at 120k is entirely possible. Does the box have any play in it at all when it's cold?

I'd be looking at oil, inspecting the linkage back from the bottom rear of the gearbox back to the gear selector, then if neither fixes it probably condemn the box and just buy a replacement off ebay for pennies. Plenty of low mileage K series parts out there... good excuse to do the clutch.

EDIT: As Joe suggests, maybe slap some cheap ATF in it for a while, in case something has gummed up in the selector forks, it'll clean it out.

EDIT2: When it jams up, does the gear stick still move side to side freely? or is it both lateral and vertical that jams? If it's moving freely side to side, do all gears jam or just 1+2 & 5+R?

+1 on trying ATF in the gearbox. My 02 TD4 was crunching very badly into third and someone here suggested changing the normal gearbox oil for ATF. I was sceptical but it made the world of difference, no more crunch.
Try it.

I have exactly the same issue and have replaced the master and slave and the bracket to no effect. Also tried changing the gearbox oil for MTF94 but again no difference (old oil looked fine TBH). Tried a load of WD40 on the clutch arm too.

The one difference I think though is that IIRC I can select gears smoothly when the engines off, it definitely happens more when sat in traffic. I did originally think it was heavy use of the clutch that did it but even if I knock it out of gear and roll using the brake it seems to happen.

This sounds really strange: I've owned a number of cars with PG1 gearboxes, and I've only ever managed to break one (too much track use in an MGF).

To me, this doesn't sound like a clutch problem.

It doesn't sound to me like a fluid problem either - gearboxes tend to get easier to change when they're warmed up.

To me, this sounds mechanical. Whether there is something obstructing the linkage - or the linkage is going out of alignment when hot (my MGFs use a different cable arrangement which is remarkably slick)? The Freelander appears to use a rod change with bushes - so I wonder if they're falling apart?

Other than that - looking at the fluid that comes out of the gearbox might be useful - if only to see whether there are any chunks of metal falling out...!