Freelander 1 Freelander EV

Nodge and I have been musing about the idea of a Freelander EV. We agree it would make a great base for an EV conversion project due it's relatively light weight, the way the boot cubby could be extended to the fuel tank position and it's height allowing loads of space for batteries below the rear as well as plenty of room under the bonnet.
Mating the TD getrag gearbox with a Nissan Leaf motor and inverter would give a great EV.

EDIT
As I figure out the CANbus signals I'm posting them here so the important info doesn't get lost in the noise of a busy thread. This post will hopefully be updated regularly with new info as we get it.
For reference I am using an Arduino with a MCP2515 adaptor to read this data and more info can be found here.


This is my Youtube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRhFZUZKXlOEvw35vr4P-7g

And here is a photo of all the CAN going to and from the ECU.


The info below was copied from the Bimmerforum https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1887229-E46-Can-bus-project as the FL1 has a BMW engine and so the CANbus signals are in many cases the same. I will change the colour of each line as I confirm it but for now most of what is below is not confirmed.

ARBID stands for arbitration https://cdn.intrepidcs.net/support/VehicleSpy/spyInCANArb.htm
The can bus is 500kb/s
In the data for each ID there are 8 bytes. Labeled Byte 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7

Green is confirmed
Red is not in my 04 manual Freelander TD4 but may be in a K6 or TD4 auto.
Blue is active but not yet confirmed.

ARBID: 0x153
-B0 - 00
-B1 - Speed LSB
-B2 - Speed MSB [Signal startbit: 12, Bit length: 12, 0x0008 = 1 km/hr]
-B3 - FF
-B4 - 00
-B5 - FE
-B6 - FF
-B7 - 00

ARBID: 0x1F0 (ABS)
Individual wheel speeds:
Signal wheel 1: startbit 0, bit length 12, Intel LSB, unsigned, gain 1/16 (0.0625) (byte0 + next 4 bits of Byte1)
Signal wheel 2: startbit 16, bit length 12, Intel LSB, unsigned, gain 1/16 (0.0625) (byte2 + next 4 bits of byte3)
Signal wheel 3: startbit 32, bit length 12, Intel LSB, unsigned, gain 1/16 (0.0625)
Signal wheel 4: startbit 48, bit length 12, Intel LSB, unsigned, gain 1/16 (0.0625)

The above translated to .xls syntax. (corrected)
Wheel speed 1: (HEX2DEC(B0)+HEX2DEC(RIGHT(B1;1))*256)/16 = Kph
Wheel speed 2: (HEX2DEC(B2)+HEX2DEC(RIGHT(B3;1))*256)/16 = Kph
Wheel speed 3: (HEX2DEC(B4)+HEX2DEC(RIGHT(B5;1))*256)/16 = Kph
Wheel speed 4: (HEX2DEC(B6)+HEX2DEC(RIGHT(B7;1))*256)/16 = Kph
(multiply by .621 to get MPH)

ARBID: 0x1F8
-B0 - 00
-B1, HDC control, Off is 00 and on is 01
-B2 - 00
-B3 - 00
-B4 - FE
-B5 - FF
-B6 - 00
-B7 - 00


ARBID: 0x316 (Digital Motor Electronics, DME1)
-B0 - 0D
-B1 - Available engine torque
-B2 - RPM LSB - 00 Ign On, Bounces around very fast when engine running.
-B3 - RPM MSB - 00 - Ign On, 13 - Tickover rising to 78 Max, [RPM=(hex2dec("byte3"&"byte2"))/6.4]
-B4 - Max engine torque
-B5 - Friction loss torque
-B6 - 00
-B7 - 00
B1, B4 and B5 courtesy of pscan.eu


ARBID: 0x329 (DME2)
-B0
-B1 - Coolant temp [Temp in C = .75 * hex2dec(byte01) - 48.373]
-B2
-B3
(bit0 == LSb)
bit 7 Cruise 1/0
bit 6 Cruise -
bit 5 Cruise +
bit 6&5 Cruise Resume

-B4 - 00
-B5 - Throttle position Sensor (00-FE).
-B6 - Brake pedal - 00 - OFF, 01 ON.
-B7 - This is a copy of B5 (Thanks for the Info from pscan.eu)

ARBID: 0x338 (DME3?),
-B0 = 00 on tickover - 02 with aircon on - Rises with RPM
-B1 = Appears to change from 0 when stationary to 01 when driving also goes to 01 with brake
-B2 - 00
-B3 - 00

ARBID: 0x545 (DME4), Lights on the dash, combinations work to get multiple lights
-B0 Check engine light (02), Cruise light (binary 1000), EML (binary 10000),
-B1 00 with ignition on, Fuel consumption LSB
-B2 00 with ignition on, Fuel consumption MSB. Values just cycle from 0 to FFFF then start over at zero. Fuel consumption is the rate of change.
-B3 Overheat light (binary 1000, Hex 08), oil level 2002+ cars, (binary 0010, hex 02), On M3's 0x10 7K and Up RPM lights, 0x20 6.5K and up RPM lights, 0x40 5.5K and up RPM lights.

ARBID: 0x613 also sent from the instrument cluster if 0x615 is acknowleged.
-B0 Odometer LSB
-B1 Odometer MSB [Convert from Hex to Decimal. Multiply by 10 and that is Odometer in Km]
-B2 is fuel level. Full being hex 39 Fuel light comes on at hex 8. Then values jump to hex 87 (or so) and then go down to hex 80 being empty.
-B3 Running Clock LSB (increments every 60 seconds)
-B4 Running Clock MSB minutes since last time battery power was lost.


ARBID: 0x615 sent from the instrument cluster.
-B0 - AC signal. 07 - OFF, C7 - ON
-B1 - 00
-B2 - 00
-B3 - 00
-B4 - 00

ARBID: 0x618
-B0 - 00
-B1 - 0F
-B2 - Air Con evap temperature
-B3 - 00
-B4 - 00

How about 'sum 4x4? Are there any electric manuals out there? don't know how that might work.

Alibro said:

Nodge and I have been musing about the idea of a Freelander EV.

Click to expand...

Nice move starting a thread Ali!!


Yes we've (Ali and Me) been chatting about this for some time.

It does look like it's very possible, if no a particular cheap conversion, however not EV conversion is going to be cheap.

The FL1 has many things in its favour, which make it good candidate for this conversion.

These positives are:
Old fashioned electronics system, meaning less electronics to fudge and hack to prevent warning lights.
Plenty of under body room for the batteries, without intruding to the inside. Plenty of space under the bonnet for the motor/inverter, charger and all the other gubbins needed to make the project viable.
As mentioned above, the FL1 is pretty light for it's size, which means less energy is needed to accelerate it. Also putting the batteries low down will keep road holding predictable.
The FL1 has a reasonably low (for its size) drag coefficien (CD), which again helps with keeping it energy efficient.
The simple drive train makes removing the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) and replacing it with a salvaged EV motor (most likely from a Nissan Leaf), reasonably easy to do.
Removal of the fuel tank, leaves a large space underneath for a good sized battery pack.
Removing the exhaust system and removing the rear cubby (only fills with water anyway) will give another large space available for another battery pack.
The 4X4 system can be retained easily because it's all mechanical.
Lots of components are available to help with creature comforts, like an electric heater element, heated front screen and heated seats, all of which are important once there's no hot engine providing the heat.
The FL1 came in many configurations, i.e. manual or automatic. Several engine types and gearboxes too, meaning lots of different shaped mounts were made, helpful when fitting a new power unit from another source.

Any questions on this, then don't hesitate to ask. I'm sure me and Ali have already discussed them, and if we haven't, then it'll be fun to work out the answers.

You're looking at a setup like this...



That's built on a '98 L series - so bolted to the PG1. Its using a 'standard EV' 65kw AC motor and a separate one for PAS, AC etc (they say 3kw but that sounds like overkill).

https://www.dikho.com.ar/land-rover-freelander/

I've always thought it would be easier to bolt it where the VCU was and just drive the back axle. A more simple 2WD V1 conversion and leaves the engine bay completely free for batteries and controllers - although I suppose you'd want some at the back to even out the weight a bit. I suppose its not much more difficult to bolt it to the gearbox though.

GrumpyGel said:

You're looking at a setup like this...

View attachment 212617

That's built on a '98 L series - so bolted to the PG1. Its using a 'standard EV' 65kw AC motor and a separate one for PAS, AC etc (they say 3kw but that sounds like overkill).

https://www.dikho.com.ar/land-rover-freelander/

I've always thought it would be easier to bolt it where the VCU was and just drive the back axle. A more simple 2WD V1 conversion and leaves the engine bay completely free for batteries and controllers - although I suppose you'd want some at the back to even out the weight a bit. I suppose its not much more difficult to bolt it to the gearbox though.

Click to expand...

There's some more about it here...

http://evalbum.com/5460

Its batteries are described as "135 CALB/Skyenergy CAM72 / L135F72, 3.20 Volt, Lithium Iron Phosphate, 45S3P pack splitted in front and rear" and running at 144v, so its going to be pumping 450A at the quoted 65KW. They recon its good for 90MPH and a range of 70 miles. Cost them £28K evidently - why would you spend that much and only put £1K up for the car

GrumpyGel said:

That's built on a '98 L series - so bolted to the PG1. Its using a 'standard EV' 65kw AC motor and a separate one for PAS, AC etc (they say 3kw but that sounds like overkill).

Click to expand...

We are looking at using a Nissan Leaf motor/inverter/charger, which is a nice compact unit. It won't look as home made is that conversion, but will be along a similar line. 3KW is probably about right for a combination PS/AC drive, if the original units are being powered from an off the shelf electric motor.
I'd use a dedicated electric PS pump from a citroen saxo, which is 1/4Kw, so won't over stress the electrical system. The AC will be sourced from the Nissan Leaf, so will work with the motor/inverter. The vacuum pump will come from a diesel Audi.

GrumpyGel said:

I've always thought it would be easier to bolt it where the VCU was and just drive the back axle. A more simple 2WD V1 conversion and leaves the engine bay completely free for batteries and controllers - although I suppose you'd want some at the back to even out the weight a bit.

Click to expand...

While that idea is logical. The problem is, a motor powerful enough to move the FL1 at normal traffic speeds, won't fit in the space of the VCU. A sufficiently powerful motor will be about 12" (30cm) in diameter, so physically won't fit under the floor. You'll need to cut the floor to allow it fit high enough, which means messing with the structural X bracing, hacking up the floor and trashing interior fittings. It'll also be RWD, which is a compromise. There are better RWD vehicles use for an EV conversion, and of course those wouldn't be on this forum.

For the FL1 using a Leaf motor/inverter unit in place of the ICE is the way to go. There's more than enough space in the engine bay for the motor and all the other components needed for it to remain a useable every day vehicle, while retaining its all important AWD ability.

I wonder what the cost was for that argentina project. The leaf is like 5k cheapest, to get one and make the transplant.
It's like 5k for the HPEVS AC-51 motor alone.

Good stuff so far, I know nothing of all electrics. Do they use a gearbox in the same way as an IC?

With the figures quoted above and using the battery space being considered, what would be an estimate of the range on a charge?

I guess an auto box is out of the question?

As previously mentioned, if you are looking to prototype, can probs help out with bits. Also have a spare V6 SE 2000 model, probably too good to break up but not worth any money. Also, it is not green, either in colour or eco friendliness!!

PRO said:

I wonder what the cost was for that argentina project. The leaf is like 5k cheapest, to get one and make the transplant.
It's like 5k for the HPEVS AC-51 motor alone.

Click to expand...

I reckon I can build a perfectly working FL1 EV with over a 100 mile range for under £10,000, including the cost of the FL1. This will have a better range than a £5K Leaf, and in the more useful FL1 package too.

andyfreelandy said:

Good stuff so far, I know nothing of all electrics. Do they use a gearbox in the same way as an IC?

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The gearbox is used as a reduction drive, and a connection point for the motor to join the rest of the drive train. For the correct gear ratio on the Getrag box, the box can simply be put into 2nd, and locked there.

andyfreelandy said:

With the figures quoted above and using the battery space being considered, what would be an estimate of the range on a charge?

Click to expand...

We (Ali and me) reckon on an excess of 100 mile range, using a 36Kwh battery pack.
This battery pack will have a nominal voltage of 360 Volts and a 100Ah capacity.

andyfreelandy said:

I guess an auto box is out of the question?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the Jatco is no use at all, and also very heavy.

andyfreelandy said:

As previously mentioned, if you are looking to prototype, can probs help out with bits.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer.

Edit:
Copying this here as it is useful info about the fuel gauge and don't want to loose it.

andyfreelandy said:

So thought I'd got it, hey how complex can a simple fuel gauge be!?!

But no, Frebbie had other ideas. Went for drive to test it, all dials and temp fine. Fuel gauge seemed high for the miles run.

Carried on, fuel gauge is getting fuller!!

So, the ipack must have come from a later car with the sender the other way around.
Then, engine fault light comes on and car splutters. Limped home. Codes P1190 fuel rail plausabilty and P1643 Can bus other are now stored!!
Also, when restarted a loud rushing noise in tank.
Figured the diesel management unit and ipack were not happy with each other!!

Swapped back old ipack and instrwnt cluster. Same fault on fuel gauge. Showing 1/4 when about 3/4 full.
Instead of applying a short circuit I read up on the actual values of resistance on the tank unit. About 100 ohms for full and 600 ohms for empty. Sure enough when these values (120 ohm and 620 ohm) were applied the suspect instrwnt cluster showed full and empty respectively.
A short circuit does not show a result on the gauge, just empty as it is with open circuit.
So, then measured resistance in the tank sender. About 550 ohms. Concluded tank unit duff and ordered a replacement.
However, the gauge has a lot more to do with the engine running than I thought. Assumed tank unit made gauge display and that was all. Wonder what happens when the dmu gets a signal of tank empty and tank isn't empty?? Will it shut engine off?
So for benefit of others, test at sender end with resistors, not a short circuit.
Will conclude this thread when tank unit is replaced. Obviously will check resistance of new one before fitting with float level at full and empty.

Click to expand...

PRO said:

I wonder what the cost was for that argentina project. The leaf is like 5k cheapest, to get one and make the transplant.
It's like 5k for the HPEVS AC-51 motor alone.

Click to expand...

Recently I foolishly decide not to buy a running and driving Leaf with very minor damage. It was £3.5k and had everything required for the conversion including motor, inverter, heater, battery, basically the lot.
Going this way the car could be on the road for under £5k including the cost of both cars and I could have sold parts off the Leaf I didn't need. It wasn't one of my better decisions.
I spotted this yesterday https://www.gumtree.com/p/land-rover/land-rover-freelander-/1375910936 and would love to buy it but this car is for both SWMBO and me and she hates green cars.
The hunt continues.

I've decided to edit this post to list the costs of this EV project.

Description..................................................................................................Money out -- Money in
Purchase Nissan Leaf 1200 Euro...............................................................£1,121.70
Collection from Southern Ireland................................................................£300.00
EVBMW VCU 300 Euro..................................................................................£270.00
Leaf Charging cable......................................................................................£95.00
Clutch friction discs. (2 for the motor and 1 for gearbox).........................£75.00
Kilovac Contactors from Israel....................................................................£53.66
Alloy rod and Steel pipe for coupler............................................................£20.00
Sale of car interior 200 Euro.............................................................................................£180.00
Sale of rear light..................................................................................................................£85.00
Alloy for adapter plate...................................................................................£150
Astra/Zafira power steering pump................................................................£XX It didn't work
VW/Audi Vac pump.........................................................................................£45
Vac sensor........................................................................................................£20
Vac controller...................................................................................................£30
Battery pack from E-Golf............................................................................£4400


Total Out £6614.36........Total In £265

Alibro said:

Probably the best option is something like the Leaf motor driving the gearbox direct and just use 3rd gear.

Click to expand...

3rd with the PG1 box Ali, but I think 2nd gear with the Getrag box is closer the the Leaf's reduction ratio of 8 to 1. The Leaf motor seems to top out at about 10,000 Rpm, so that works out at well over 90 Mph with the Getrag box in 2nd gear.
Here's the maths.

I will follow this thread with interest if somebody gets it running and shares the know how. And if I find a cheap shot leaf of course. Cause I can get free charge at work. And would be neat, can sell engine for a few hundred as well.
Win win

Interesting project! I too, shall watch with interest. I've done something similar at work (or at least, been involved in something similar). In this case, it was converting ICE-engined vans to electric propulsion. I have to admit, it was a disaster though! One of the hardest things is getting the ABS and ESC to work with the regenerative braking regenerative over-run system. In fact, we never fully managed to get that to work satisfactorily. I don't think the FL1 has ESC though? At least that's one less thing to worry about!

Why are you planning on only being RWD? If you're going to put the motor on to the gearbox and leave it in 2nd, can't you just keep the IRD and the rest of the 4WD powertrain?

Avocet1 said:

Why are you planning on only being RWD? If you're going to put the motor on to the gearbox and leave it in 2nd, can't you just keep the IRD and the rest of the 4WD powertrain?

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I believe that is Ali & Nodge's thinking - bolt the motor up to the gearbox adaptor plate so that motor, gearbox and IRD are all connected up.

Nodge68 said:

We are looking at using a Nissan Leaf motor/inverter/charger, which is a nice compact unit. It won't look as home made is that conversion, but will be along a similar line. 3KW is probably about right for a combination PS/AC drive, if the original units are being powered from an off the shelf electric motor.
I'd use a dedicated electric PS pump from a citroen saxo, which is 1/4Kw, so won't over stress the electrical system. The AC will be sourced from the Nissan Leaf, so will work with the motor/inverter. The vacuum pump will come from a diesel Audi.

While that idea is logical. The problem is, a motor powerful enough to move the FL1 at normal traffic speeds, won't fit in the space of the VCU. A sufficiently powerful motor will be about 12" (30cm) in diameter, so physically won't fit under the floor. You'll need to cut the floor to allow it fit high enough, which means messing with the structural X bracing, hacking up the floor and trashing interior fittings. It'll also be RWD, which is a compromise. There are better RWD vehicles use for an EV conversion, and of course those wouldn't be on this forum.

For the FL1 using a Leaf motor/inverter unit in place of the ICE is the way to go. There's more than enough space in the engine bay for the motor and all the other components needed for it to remain a useable every day vehicle, while retaining its all important AWD ability.

Click to expand...

The Leaf (G1) looks to have an 80kw motor, its difficult to tell if that's peak or continuous - I presume peak. 15kw more than in the above example, but that one above is only an 8.5" diameter. I think its quite a tidy installation. The gearbox obviously uses the standard mount, there looks to be an adaptor to the engine top mount and a plate for the lower tie bar, all looks pretty good to me.

I was wondering if it would be best utilising 'smaller' motors - 1 mounted where the VCU sits driving the rear diff, and another maybe in the same place facing the other way (or maybe in the engine bay) driving a rear diff mounted where the IRD sits to drive the front axle (dunno if rear shafts would fit to the front outer CVs). Would be complicated mounting a diff where the IRD sits though - there's not much chassis there to support it. Using 2 motors would add complexity, but you're only going to use the same battery capacity and the overall cost of 2 smaller motors wouldn't increase costs to much. Way complicated though

Nodge68 said:

3rd with the PG1 box Ali, but I think 2nd gear with the Getrag box is closer the the Leaf's reduction ratio of 8 to 1. The Leaf motor seems to top out at about 10,000 Rpm, so that works out at well over 90 Mph with the Getrag box in 2nd gear.
Here's the maths. View attachment 212644

Click to expand...

The Leaf looks to have a transmission ration of about 8:1. It weights about 1,500kg, dunno what a converted Freelander would weight - that example above looks to be about the same, but I'd have thought that was on the conservative side. The tyres on a Leaf are about 10% smaller than Freelander. All up an 8:1 transmission ratio may be a bit long.

GrumpyGel said:

The Leaf looks to have a transmission ration of about 8:1. It weights about 1,500kg, dunno what a converted Freelander would weight - that example above looks to be about the same, but I'd have thought that was on the conservative side. The tyres on a Leaf are about 10% smaller than Freelander. All up an 8:1 transmission ratio may be a bit long.

Click to expand...

My understanding is the Leaf motor can easily handle over 100kW but the inverter is limited to 80kW. By replacing the inverter logic board it should be possible to get around 100kW before reaching the limits of the inverters power stage.
Its great seeing different suggestions how it can be done and is one of the nice things about the Freelander. There are lots of options. It would even be possible to use the leaf transmission and turn the car into FWD only. As GrumpyGel suggested a 2nd small motor driving the rear is possible too.
The Freelander is 1500kg stock (less for the K series) so very similar.

This sounds like a great project i will follow with lots of interest .