Freelander Awful in Snow

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Avocet1 said:
A couple of observations:

1. There's snow, and there's "snow". Impressive YouTube videos of cars tanking through axle-deep snow look impressive, but fresh, new snow, is actually quite grippy. The nasty stuff, is the hard-packed snow, especially if the sun comes out and melts the top surface very slightly. When that happens, EVERYTHING will struggle! (Unless you have studded ice tyres)!

2. When the OP says the wheels were spinning, was the back end sliding? That might give some clue as to whether drive was reaching the rear axle as well.

3. Was the OP's traction control light flashing on the dash?

4. Personally, I find "all season" tyres a bit of a compromise. Mrs. Avocet's late X-Trail was on Scorpions and they're a great all-round tyre, but true "Winter" tyres are better on the cold stuff. My daughter has a completely standard 1300 cc Mazda 2 and lives in the Scottish Highlands. She runs on Kumho Wintercraft (other brands are available!) Winter tyres and has, on occasions, driven past stranded 4x4s. The fact that her car is light, also helps on slopes. Eventually, of course, she runs out of ground clearance when the snow gets too deep. That's where the 4x4s have the advantage, but on packed snow that's not deep, she can do just fine. True Winter tyres have a three peaked mountain with a snowflake symbol moulded into the sidewall. Tyres with "mud & snow" on them are not necessarily Winter tyres. That refers to tread pattern whereas the real secret is in the rubber compound used in a proper Winter tyre. It grips much better at low temperatures. Some "All season" tyres can just about scrape into the "Winter category" and meet the minimum grip requirements to be classified as such, but a true Winter tyre is likely to exceed those requirements by more of a margin. Nokian are another very reputable make. Popular in Finland!

My FL1 is on Event ML 698 "all terrain" cheapo tyres and they're OK in fresh snow, but they're pretty rubbish on the hard packed stuff or on ice.
Click to expand...
Hi Avocet1

With regards to the back end i am unsure, it felt more like the front sliding around the back end. I am going to go try again today with my other half, i assume i am looking for the back wheels to be spinning (showing power is reaching them).

With regards to lights, when DSC was on i kept getting the amber triangle with the anticlockwise arrow flickering. When OFF the only light i got was the constant arrow and triangle to show the DSC is off.
 
GeogreO2717 said:
Hi Avocet1

With regards to the back end i am unsure, it felt more like the front sliding around the back end. I am going to go try again today with my other half, i assume i am looking for the back wheels to be spinning (showing power is reaching them).

With regards to lights, when DSC was on i kept getting the amber triangle with the anticlockwise arrow flickering. When OFF the only light i got was the constant arrow and triangle to show the DSC is off.
Click to expand...
Don't forget its quite likely that only 1 wheel on each axle will spin - so Mrs O2717 will need to keep an eye on both sides (carefully!).
 
Avocet1 said:
There's snow, and there's "snow". Impressive YouTube videos of cars tanking through axle-deep snow look impressive, but fresh, new snow, is actually quite grippy.
Click to expand...
Indeed it is. Driver ability also plays a factor too. ;)
Avocet1 said:
The nasty stuff, is the hard-packed snow, especially if the sun comes out and melts the top surface very slightly. When that happens, EVERYTHING will struggle! (Unless you have studded ice tyres)!
Click to expand...
Absolutely. There's almost no grip on ice, which gets worse if wheels are spin, which polishes the surface to a high shine with minimal grip.
Avocet1 said:
When the OP says the wheels were spinning, was the back end sliding? That might give some clue as to whether drive was reaching the rear axle as well.
Click to expand...
I don't believe the drive is getting to the rear axle, which can happen on the FL2.
Avocet1 said:
Personally, I find "all season" tyres a bit of a compromise. Mrs. Avocet's late X-Trail was on Scorpions and they're a great all-round tyre, but true "Winter" tyres are better on the cold stuff.
Click to expand...
Agreed. A working Freelander will make the most of the available grip. I always go for M&S tyres on all my vehicles, but bad weather ability is limited on a 2WD vehicle.
Avocet1 said:
Personally, I find "all season" tyres a bit of a compromise. Mrs. Avocet's late X-Trail was on Scorpions and they're a great all-round tyre, but true "Winter" tyres are better on the cold stuff. My daughter has a completely standard 1300 cc Mazda 2 and lives in the Scottish Highlands. She runs on Kumho Wintercraft (other brands are available!) Winter tyres and has, on occasions, driven past stranded 4x4s. The fact that her car is light, also helps on slopes. Eventually, of course, she runs out of ground clearance when the snow gets too deep. That's where the 4x4s have the advantage, but on packed snow that's not deep, she can do just fine. True Winter tyres have a three peaked mountain with a snowflake symbol moulded into the sidewall. Tyres with "mud & snow" on them are not necessarily Winter tyres. That refers to tread pattern whereas the real secret is in the rubber compound used in a proper Winter tyre. It grips much better at low temperatures. Some "All season" tyres can just about scrape into the "Winter category" and meet the minimum grip requirements to be classified as such, but a true Winter tyre is likely to exceed those requirements by more of a margin.
Click to expand...
This is so accurate.
My favourite tyres are Yokohama are the Geolander A/T G015 which are winter rated, and basically a Freelander will go anywhere, in any conditions with them fitted.

When the tyres on my FL2 need replacement, it'll get a set of Geolander A/Ts fitted, as they are so very good.

I fit winter tyres to the family Fiat 500s, as they work well in snow, simply because of the combination of light vehicle, and correct winter tyres.
 
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freespaña said:
Hi:
Hello, here is a good example of how to drive on a snowy ramp. You will see that if you accelerate too much you lose traction and dig into the ground. Smoothness. If it sinks back a little and start smooth again. By the way and very important, it seems that it has M + S and 3PMSF tires.



Click to expand...

I'm wondering about that one. It's almost as if he had the dashboard switch for 2WD or 4WD in the wrong position. OK, I suppose it's possible that the rear wheel on the other side was spinning its heart out, but when he goes back down the slope I can't see any obvious "holes" in the snow where the other back wheel would have been. Mrs Avocet's T30 (this was a T31, so slightly different) was quite good in snow. It's unfair to compare it to the Freelander 1 that I currently have, because they're both on very different tyres, but I suspect that the FL1 would be a bit better than the X-Trail on like-for-like tyres. Also, Mrs. Avocet's X-Trail had a similar "electronic diff lock effect" provided by the ABS pump (of which I saw no sign on that video).
 
Nodge68 said:
Indeed it is. Driver ability also plays a factor too. ;)

Absolutely. There's almost no grip on ice, which gets worse if wheels are spin, which polishes the surface to a high shine with minimal grip.

I don't believe the drive is getting to the rear axle, which can happen on the FL2.

Agreed. A working Freelander will make the most of the available grip. I always go for M&S tyres on all my vehicles, but bad weather ability is limited on a 2WD vehicle.

This is so accurate.
My favourite tyres are Yokohama are the Geolander A/T G015 are winter rated, and will basically a Freelander will go anywhere, in any conditions with them fitted.

When the tyres on my FL2 need replacement, it'll get a set of Geolander A/Ts fitted, as they are so very good.

I fit winter tyres to the family Fiat 500s, as they work well in snow, simply because of the combination of light vehicle, and correct winter tyres.
Click to expand...

What are the Geolanders like for noise? (The Events are pretty awful - sounds like an army truck)!
 
GeogreO2717 said:
Hi Avocet1

With regards to the back end i am unsure, it felt more like the front sliding around the back end. I am going to go try again today with my other half, i assume i am looking for the back wheels to be spinning (showing power is reaching them).

With regards to lights, when DSC was on i kept getting the amber triangle with the anticlockwise arrow flickering. When OFF the only light i got was the constant arrow and triangle to show the DSC is off.
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to agree with Nodge. It's starting to sound like drive isn't getting to the rear wheels. I'm not really familiar with FL2, but from your description of the dash lights, it seems everything is OK electronically. My brother-in-law (the ex-owner of my current FL1, as it happens!) has an FL2 at present. He works in a signal box on a railway line in South Wales and has a fair bit of off-tarmac driving to get to "the office" each day. He has nothing but praise for the FL2 in snow, and is running on Michelin Crossclimates, so they're a very similar tyre to your Scorpions. If you can muster one other person, besides Mrs. GeogreO2717 so that each of them can film one side of your Freelander simultaneously, I think that would be useful in determining which wheels were spinning.
 
GeogreO2717 said:
It's booked into Hallams on the 3rd. That's annoying, did you manage to get up to the 3rd teir of the car park, that's where I got stuck, the back end was sliding on the other bits too.
Click to expand...

Just tried again as I was passing in case it got worse after I went yesterday. Didn’t break traction at all going up. Trickier coming down as it was quite slippery but hill decent took care of that. Sounds like its not right. mine always exeeds my expectations. Web site would not allow me to upload the video from my dashcam.
snow.JPG
 
Avocet1 said:
What are the Geolanders like for noise? (The Events are pretty awful - sounds like an army truck)!
Click to expand...
Brilliant. They aren't much more noisy than conventional road tyres, and grip well in all condition too. Definitely the best tyres I've used on any vehicle.
Avocet1 said:
I'm inclined to agree with Nodge. It's starting to sound like drive isn't getting to the rear wheels.
Click to expand...
If it was driving the rear wheels, it would keep going on snow.
Avocet1 said:
I'm not really familiar with FL2, but from your description of the dash lights, it seems everything is OK electronically.
Click to expand...
It's very similar to the FL1 system, except the Haldex (an electronic version of the VCU) is bolted directly to the rear diff.
Here's a picture of my rebuilt diff, just before I fitted it. The Haldex unit is the section, closest to the camera. The clutch pack is inside the front of the diff casing, under the FoMoCo insignia.
20210131_215124.jpg


It's very possible for there to be a mechanical failure in the PTU (where the power comes from the gearbox) as there are some splines that strip, often before the rear diff fails.
This failure doesn't come up with any errors, as it's a pure mechanical issue, and unfortunately an expensive one to fix.
 

I have just gone to Mam tor again and it definitely seems to not be putting power to the rear wheels. I have attached a video of 1 side and have been told that it is the same on the other side. What do you guys think?

I've double checked under the car as well and all the parts seem to be there as per the Haynes manual, is there anything I should be specifically looking for to check it hasn't been converted to 2WD?
 
GeogreO2717 said:

I have just gone to Mam tor again and it definitely seems to not be putting power to the rear wheels. I have attached a video of 1 side and have been told that it is the same on the other side. What do you guys think?

I've double checked under the car as well and all the parts seem to be there as per the Haynes manual, is there anything I should be specifically looking for to check it hasn't been converted to 2WD?
Click to expand...

I can´t see the video...
 
GrumpyGel said:
What sort of budget does he have and what sort of DIY will go into maintenance?

The FL2 is probably more reliable, but I'm sure its not by much because F1 is a very reliable motor (V6 aside). If an F2 goes wrong though, you can be in for serious grief because of all the modern electronics and gear - and those parts can be silly expensive.

If you are looking at an F1, I should think that the overall cheapest to run is a 1.8 K Series petrol. The K Series has a poor reputation, which in many ways is quite right - but it is only because of blowing head gaskets. If you are a into your DIY, then they are cheap and easy to fix - and it seams there's bugger all else that goes wrong with them. The K Series was sold across the life of F1, so you can get early basic ones and later more 'posh' ones - for real posh though you need to go F2.

The L Series diesel is on a par with e K Series for running costs and reliability - mine's 20 years old, I've owned it for over 10 years and its boringly reliable and will take 5 on a road trip with luggage and get very close to 40mpg. Its a cracking characterful setup, but your boy will be beaten off the lights by 18 wheelers and they were only sold up to 2000 so are quite basic.

I love driving my L Series, its slow off the lights, but fine on the open road and will easily pull very illegal loads.

If he is after a manual, then I'd be wary of a TD4 - the clutches appear to need replacing at quite low mileages and the clutch slave is inside the bell housing so is a gearbox off job to replace. They are though the only option for an auto. The TD4 is a common rail, so much more refined than the L Series and also more to go wrong, but they're still OK. If your son mainly does town driving though, in auto for, don't expect much more than 25mpg.

Parts are dirt cheap for F1 and loads of suppliers. I don't know what its like for F2. As I say, I wouldn't entertain a V6. They run very hot, often to hot!, and drink lots of fuel. You'd be better off with a V8 Disco.
Click to expand...

He has around £6000 + to spend. I know I should put him off buying Land Rover. But there must be one model out there that doesn't break down every minute.
He looked at Range Rover Sports but everyone we looked at had numerous electrical or air suspension faults. I cannot do the repairs for him anymore due to the Arthritis slowly setting in into the hands and arms. I am not old just high mileage and been hard driven :D:D
He would love a Range Rover Sport but he needs reliability and also he does like the automatic Freelanders, its just finding a reliable one ( The Golden Chalice) :D:D:D
 
GeogreO2717 said:

I have just gone to Mam tor again and it definitely seems to not be putting power to the rear wheels. I have attached a video of 1 side and have been told that it is the same on the other side. What do you guys think?

I've double checked under the car as well and all the parts seem to be there as per the Haynes manual, is there anything I should be specifically looking for to check it hasn't been converted to 2WD?
Click to expand...

The video works OK for me, and yes, it certainly looks like there is no drive to at least the right hand rear wheel. The slope doesn't look very steep in the video, although it is hard to tell, but I would have expected it to do better than that on ANY tyres, really.
 
kurtjohnson10 said:
He has around £6000 + to spend. I know I should put him off buying Land Rover. But there must be one model out there that doesn't break down every minute.
Click to expand...

You'll get a 2009-2011 SE with about 80 to 100k on the clock for a £6k budget, but it varies by location.

It's best to start your own thread, or answers will get lost in other noise on this thread. ;)
 
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GeogreO2717 said:
I've double checked under the car as well and all the parts seem to be there as per the Haynes manual, is there anything I should be specifically looking for to check it hasn't been converted to 2WD?
Click to expand...
There's definitely no drive to the back wheels. Mine would climb that gently hill without any wheels spinning.

It's not easy to convert the FL2 to 2WD, but it can do it on its own in 2 ways.
The Haldex being faulty is one way, so when was that last serviced, if it was serviced?
The only other way is for the drive to be disconnected at the spline link between the gearbox and PTU, which seems to be a common fault.

The only way to tell is to record what the propshaft is doing, when the front wheels are spinning. If the propshaft isn't rotating with the front wheels, then the PTU splines have failed.
 
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Nodge68 said:
There's definitely no drive to the back wheels. Mine would climb that gently hill without any wheels spinning.

It's not easy to convert the FL2 to 2WD, but it can do it on its own in 2 ways.
The Haldex being faulty is one way, so when was that last serviced, if it was serviced?
The only other way is for the drive to be disconnected at the spline link between the gearbox and PTU, which seems to be a common fault.

The only way to tell is to record what the propshaft is doing, when the front wheels are spinning. If the propshaft isn't rotating with the front wheels, then the PTU splines have failed.
Click to expand...
I've got it booked into Froggatts 4x4 on Tuesday for them to do a diagnostic so hopefully this and any other issues will be identified during that.
 
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