False start on 200tdi in series 2a 109

Hi everyone, in typical forum fashion, the first time I start a thread it is to pick others brains about a problem that has grounded my landy.

I have read lots of interesting threads about starting problems that have moved my thinking on but not undertaken any work to rule anything out as I need to understand what I am looking at to work out how I can rule faults out.

While I have found similar threads, none are quite the same as my fault as my vehicle turns over and fires it just won't carry on going, a precise description of the symptoms is below.

The symptoms
Turn ignition key to start, engine starts, as turn key from starter, revs die and engine fails.
Tried pushing throttle pedal and when depressing pedal while starter is engaged, engine revs will respond, when pressing throttle pedal without starter engaged, no response from engine.

My guesses so far
1. Fuel stop solenoid, but why does throttle work when starter engaged (200tdi conversion made the cable pull fuel stop redundant)
2. Injector pump/fuel lift pump, but if it is not working, fuel system would not Prime for start and it would not fire at all, but symptoms do seem like fuel starvation, I don't know how the starter will make a difference though.
3. Relay, doing things with starter engaged but not without, suggests relays not doing what they should, as an implanted engine there are very few relays, well only one I can see and that is connected to the starter motor
4. Glow plugs, it is cold but again, engine initially starts just not responding to throttle
Throttle linkage (governor), but responds to throttle if I hold the key in starter position and the starter motor is still spinning (I can't drive it to the garage like this)
5. Battery/alternator/insufficient electrical power
Previous experience of an intermittent charging fault tells me that when electrics don't get their 13.5 volts while the engine is running, bad things happen and the wiring still needs a wiggle while running to get the alternator to charge the battery, I have been trying to trace the loose connections but mix of 200tdi and series 2a wiring makes this difficult.

What I would like from forum members
My landy is being towed to my local Land Rover specialist tomorrow and I will let you know what they think and how I progress.
However, i would appreciate people's thoughts on the above guesses and any others they may have.
It would also help to understand how all these systems work to assist my roadside diagnosis in future.

it sounds like pump solenoid fed is by starter circuit, try a fresh feed to pump from the main power cable at starter or alt or other source

Agreed, you need two feeds to the fuel cut off solenoid if you are using the old diesel key starter switch, I use one from the brake light switch which is a switched live and another from the starter feed with a diode in line.

Gosh, quick response, thanks.
I did wonder if there was a fault in the way it was wired from the ignition switch but it worked fine for the 2 months I owned it before developing this fault this week.
To dark for wiring a bypass tonight but I will look in the morning.

might well be a faulty switch ie that terminal only live now whilst cranking, a voltmeter etc would prove switch wiring ie whats live and when

Thanks James,
My thinking about a bypass was so I could take the switches out of the equation by wiring a live feed to the fuel stop solenoid and if that worked then look at switching.
I must say that I preferred the old series method of a cable pull for the fuel stop as this avoided needing any electrics to keep the engine running and was very effective in the case of runaways.
I guess i don't want to give a live feed to the solenoid on a permanent basis as I would not be able to switch the engine off from in the cab.

PAH said:

Thanks James,
My thinking about a bypass was so I could take the switches out of the equation by wiring a live feed to the fuel stop solenoid and if that worked then look at switching.
I must say that I preferred the old series method of a cable pull for the fuel stop as this avoided needing any electrics to keep the engine running and was very effective in the case of runaways.
I guess i don't want to give a live feed to the solenoid on a permanent basis as I would not be able to switch the engine off from in the cab.

Click to expand...

that was my idea too ,just to prove the point

Just wonder...has it ever run proper for you??

Nick.

When I wiggled the engine harness enough for it to charge, it ran fine.
Started on first turn over (it still does, just won't carry on)
It did stop when I pulled one of the bullet connectors of the engine harness multi-plug and I suspect that water in this connector has been causing the intermittent fault with the charging.

Mmmm what I meant was...how long have you owned it...have you driven it much since you owned it and did it run ok??

Could be air in ths system up to injector pump. If running its fine, when stopped air gets in the system. it will fire up on the fuel in the injector pipes and then die. Happened to mine. I also found that my lift pump was on the way out but that could have been unrelated as when the air leak was fixed it was fine.

However saying that, if lift pump non return valves are going, the same thing will happen but instead of letting air in, fuel will just run straight back to the tank

Thanks nickjaxe,
I have not owned it long, just over two months and drove it 200 miles back when I bought it, since then it has only been on short runs to garage and back and on test runs as the not charging issue reared its head on the drive home when my battery ran so low, my lights and indicators stopped working on motorway (interesting day)
My local landy garage traced loose connections through the charging circuit and got it to charge but the loom still occasionally needs a wiggle.
Samc88
Thanks for the suggestion.
Fuel delivery and throttle response is fine as long as I hold the key in the starter position and I hear the starter motor turning (I can move the vehicle around my drive like this but obviously not good for driving on the road with one hand holding the key)
As soon as I release the key to the normal running position the engine revs slow until the engine stops and no response on the throttle, like someone has cut the fuel line.
This is why the fuel stop solenoid is my 'Prime suspect's and on inspection, the solenoid has two wires attached to it.
Can someone tell me if my assumption (that these wires are: one for power with starter engaged: one from the ignition switch for power while going) that would help as I suspect either a loose connection or faulty wire on this ignition circuit is causing the fuel stop solenoid is closing when I release the starter.
My landy garage has it at the moment so I can't bypass this wire to check my theory, but I would like to know for when I talk to the garage as they, like many garages, have a habit of saying things are fixed when the fix is only a temporary coincidence and they have not had time to test properly.

There is only one connection to the solenoid. It's very simple re make one. You need something that remains live in every position except off. So when you turn the key off the fuel solenoid shuts the fuel off. You need a multimeter and remove the dash panel and see if you can find one. If not you'll have to have a seperate switch.

I agree with 109...only one wire...as a temp measure run a pos wire from the batt....take it off when parked up...just to prove thats the prob.
Nick.

Depends, if it started as a diesel series before the 200 conversion you need another feed from the starter as all other services are shut down when cranking. This is normally taken from the starter solenoid supply but obviously you need to prevent current flowing to the starter solenoid from the switched live otherwise the starter will be running all the time. This can be done with a diode or relay. In this case it sounds like the fuel cut off is seeing current when cranking only. Just attach a temporary 12v supply to the fuel cut off solenoid to test.

On my 2.5na which has an electric solenoid, i have switch seperate from the igniton for the solenoid. Try hot wiring it direct to battery temporarily and see if that cures your issue

think i just used a spare white wire in the engine bay. doh just saw it's a 109.. not early def

Sounds like an ideal opportunity to run a solenoid feed through a discreetly placed switch.

Not the greatest security in the world but ever little helps

Fixed, thanks for your help.
We were right in identifying the fuel cut off solenoid as the temporary power supply cured the problem.
I traced the wiring from the solenoid (yes there were two wires) and while the wire to the starter motor circuit worked, the wire from the ignition switch did not.
Fault found in wire behind dash not far from the ignition switch.
Replaced wire, no more fuel starvation.

So for reference;
Fault: Fuel and throttle control OK while starter motor engaged but then dies when release starter motor and lack of throttle control while ignition on.
Suspect no: Fuel starvation
Check: Wiring from fuel cut off solenoid (small electrical connection just below the throttle linkage)
Temporary wiring test: Run power feed from battery (or other circuit that has power in ignition phase) to cut off solenoid directly.
Test result: If temporary power works, you have a wiring fault.
(If temporary power does not solve problem, solenoid itself is next suspect, followed by fuel pump power, fuel line and fuel filter).
DO NOT LEAVE PERMANENT POWER SUPPLY TO CUT OF SOLENOID IN PLACE (You will not be able to stop the vehicle when you need to)
Fix: locate wire from solenoid to ignition and test with multi-meter resistance reading, replace wire/connectors where not working / replace wire over entire length.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Thanks for the feedback always appreciated.
ie:- nowt worse than a thread with no conclusion.