P38A EV Conversion / Hybrid conversion - Pie in the sky thinking

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Montyjohn

Montyjohn

Well-Known Member
Posts
241
Location
UK
I love my P38 and I think I will always want to own one.
But it does make me wonder how likely am I to run one in 20+ years time?
By then, fuel will probably all be synthetic, cost four times as much, plus a little extra as politicians will argue that you have no right to pollute the air when you could cheaply by an EV. Times are changing fast.

So is an EV conversion the way forward.
Not for me. Right now anyway.
I love the V8. That would be a loss. But also, conversions cost a fortune, and the batteries are very very heavy. I also worry about battery degradation. EV manufacturers put a lot of effort into managing batteries and cooling. Replicating this in a diy project wouldn't be easy.

Which got me wondering, would a hybrid conversion be the way forward?
Most of my journeys are sub 10 miles (return). I'd get to keep the V8. Battery weight would be minimal. This might not be the worst idea.

So the way I would do it is to swap the auto gearbox for a Lexus GS450H gearbox. The motor within that gearbox is about 200hp which is plenty.
You can get 12kwh batteries by BMW from eBay for about £1k. With a bit of re-fiddling it would mostly fit in the spare tyre well if re-engineered.
Use the Lexus inverter controlled by Damiens thingy https://www.evbmw.com/index.php/evbmw-webshop/vcu-boards/gs450h-vcu. Or maybe the Zombie version.
Bits that would be a problem.

GS450H gearbox is longer than the P38 auto box. So engine might need to move forward. Maybe remove handbrake drum to move the transfer box back. probably would need both. But then how would you provide a handbrake directly to callipers?

The GS450H box would need to be a divorced connection to the transfer box. Sounds complicated. May make the system even longer.

Damien's inverter controller isn't programmed to work in hybrid mode so the code would need to be adapted to use engine power. Engine speed, vehicle speed and throttle position are all known so the logic should be solvable. (I write a lot of code anyway, so provided I can figure out the logic, I'm not worried about this bit).

I've never understood regen braking. How does the inverter know what voltage to charge the battery at when braking. The battery won't be stock so this info would need to be provided somehow. Does Damien's board do this?

These are just the obvious problems, many more to uncover I'm sure.

Just mulling it over at the moment so any thoughts welcome.
 
I do not think BEV's are the way forward, they have been tried before and found wanting.
Most petrol engines can I suspect be converted to run on Hydrogen, just as they can be converted to run on LPG.
 
kermit_rr said:
they are also very toxic, especially when you compare like for like, eg something with 500 mile range
Click to expand...
Volvo did a comparison between two of their cars of the the same model, one a BEV, the other diesel. The emissions break even point was 90000 kilometres, that's how far a BEV has to travel before it's emissions are less than the diesel and that takes no account as far as I'm aware of disposal of the batteries at end of life and the fact that the life expectancy of a BEV is likely to be a lot shorted than the diesel. I see insurance companies are writing off BEV's after even a minor RTA because the safety of the batteries cannot be verified.
Just to add to the pollution https://uk.yahoo.com/style/heavy-electric-cars-release-more-100233010.html
 
Last edited:
kermit_rr said:
i'd be thinking about other solutions, not EV
Click to expand...

I've pretty much discounted the use of Hydrogen as a fuel source for an internal combustion engine.
Take the below figures.

1 litre of petrol = 8.9 kWh
1 litre of H2 at 700 bar (highest you can have without cryo I believe)= 1.4 kWh
So a 90l tank of petrol would require an equivalent H2 tank of 572l. But that's a tank that needs to handle 700 bar (10,000psi) holding 24kg of hydrogen.
Cost to fill that tank today would be about £385. Might come down in the future.

So the size of the tank is a bit of a killer. it would fill the boot entirety. Possible even the back seats. But the cost of that tank would also be immense. I've seen you can buy 30L 700 bar tanks for $4000. You would need 20 of them.

Hydrogen only really works with a fuel cell where you can get crazy efficiencies.
 
Montyjohn said:
I've pretty much discounted the use of Hydrogen as a fuel source for an internal combustion engine.
Take the below figures.

1 litre of petrol = 8.9 kWh
1 litre of H2 at 700 bar (highest you can have without cryo I believe)= 1.4 kWh
So a 90l tank of petrol would require an equivalent H2 tank of 572l. But that's a tank that needs to handle 700 bar (10,000psi) holding 24kg of hydrogen.
Cost to fill that tank today would be about £385. Might come down in the future.

So the size of the tank is a bit of a killer. it would fill the boot entirety. Possible even the back seats. But the cost of that tank would also be immense. I've seen you can buy 30L 700 bar tanks for $4000. You would need 20 of them.

Hydrogen only really works with a fuel cell where you can get crazy efficiencies.
Click to expand...
I do agree with that, it only works for short range stuff but that would suit us for our local runabout.
Fuel cells are to me the future.
 
Datatek said:
I do agree with that, it only works for short range stuff but that would suit us for our local runabout.
Fuel cells are to me the future.
Click to expand...
I'm not so convinced.
The inherent problem with hydrogen will always be that the electrolysis to produce the hydrogen is very inefficient.
I don't remember the exact values, but it was something like for every KW of energy you put into a BEV, you need three times as much per KW of hydrogen.
Then there's the expensive metals like platinum needed for a fuel cell. There doesn't appear to be a technology on the horizon to reduce fuel cell costs, so they will for now be the more expensive option when compared to BEVs.
But you look at batteries, and they are advancing very quickly. It's predicted that all materials to manufacturer batteries will soon be plentiful and safe to mine. Cobalt has recently been removed from some lithium batteries. Then there's several other hopeful technologies like Graphene batteries etc. that offer huge sustainability improvements.
I don't think it will be long before all the arguments against EVs are soon tackled.
 
Montyjohn said:
I'm not so convinced.
The inherent problem with hydrogen will always be that the electrolysis to produce the hydrogen is very inefficient.
I don't remember the exact values, but it was something like for every KW of energy you put into a BEV, you need three times as much per KW of hydrogen.
Then there's the expensive metals like platinum needed for a fuel cell. There doesn't appear to be a technology on the horizon to reduce fuel cell costs, so they will for now be the more expensive option when compared to BEVs.
But you look at batteries, and they are advancing very quickly. It's predicted that all materials to manufacturer batteries will soon be plentiful and safe to mine. Cobalt has recently been removed from some lithium batteries. Then there's several other hopeful technologies like Graphene batteries etc. that offer huge sustainability improvements.
I don't think it will be long before all the arguments against EVs are soon tackled.
Click to expand...
In Holland, they have started producing Hydrogen from wind turbines when the energy is not needed for the grid, they are doing it on site so very efficient. Technology for splitting hydrogen and oxygen from water is also progressing and hydrogen has the advantage that supplies are virtually unlimited.
The problem with battery BEV's in the UK is that successive governments have failed to ensure generating capacity kept up with demand, preferring instead to buy in power from other countirs which has led to the enormous price rises. I see no plans on the horizon to build more capacity, indeed perfectly good coal fired power stations that could be mothballed and kept for emergencies like this past winter are being destroyed. Regardless of generating capacity, local distribution networks ar not up to providing all the power that would be needed for millions of BEV's. Then you have the relatively short service life of the batteries to consider.
uk.yahoo.com

‘Highly carcinogenic’ tyre toxins give electric car drivers a nasty surprise

Drivers of electric cars are unwittingly releasing more toxic tyre particles into the air than those driving petrol vehicles, experts have warned.
uk.yahoo.com uk.yahoo.com
 
Last edited:
Montyjohn said:
I love my P38 and I think I will always want to own one.
But it does make me wonder how likely am I to run one in 20+ years time?
By then, fuel will probably all be synthetic, cost four times as much, plus a little extra as politicians will argue that you have no right to pollute the air when you could cheaply by an EV. Times are changing fast.

So is an EV conversion the way forward.
Not for me. Right now anyway.
I love the V8. That would be a loss. But also, conversions cost a fortune, and the batteries are very very heavy. I also worry about battery degradation. EV manufacturers put a lot of effort into managing batteries and cooling. Replicating this in a diy project wouldn't be easy.

Which got me wondering, would a hybrid conversion be the way forward?
Most of my journeys are sub 10 miles (return). I'd get to keep the V8. Battery weight would be minimal. This might not be the worst idea.

So the way I would do it is to swap the auto gearbox for a Lexus GS450H gearbox. The motor within that gearbox is about 200hp which is plenty.
You can get 12kwh batteries by BMW from eBay for about £1k. With a bit of re-fiddling it would mostly fit in the spare tyre well if re-engineered.
Use the Lexus inverter controlled by Damiens thingy https://www.evbmw.com/index.php/evbmw-webshop/vcu-boards/gs450h-vcu. Or maybe the Zombie version.
Bits that would be a problem.

GS450H gearbox is longer than the P38 auto box. So engine might need to move forward. Maybe remove handbrake drum to move the transfer box back. probably would need both. But then how would you provide a handbrake directly to callipers?

The GS450H box would need to be a divorced connection to the transfer box. Sounds complicated. May make the system even longer.

Damien's inverter controller isn't programmed to work in hybrid mode so the code would need to be adapted to use engine power. Engine speed, vehicle speed and throttle position are all known so the logic should be solvable. (I write a lot of code anyway, so provided I can figure out the logic, I'm not worried about this bit).

I've never understood regen braking. How does the inverter know what voltage to charge the battery at when braking. The battery won't be stock so this info would need to be provided somehow. Does Damien's board do this?

These are just the obvious problems, many more to uncover I'm sure.

Just mulling it over at the moment so any thoughts welcome.
Click to expand...

Sure that guy in Wales did one. Perfect car as the air-suspension deals with the weight difference without breaking a sweat. Problem is, the parts alone cost 15 grand, and that's before fettling.
 
Datatek said:
In Holland, they have started producing Hydrogen from wind turbines when the energy is not needed for the grid, they are doing it on site so very efficient. Technology for splitting hydrogen and oxygen from water is also progressing and hydrogen has the advantage that supplies are virtually unlimited.
The problem with battery BEV's in the UK is that successive governments have failed to ensure generating capacity kept up with demand, preferring instead to buy in power from other countirs which has led to the enormous price rises. I see no plans on the horizon to build more capacity, indeed perfectly good coal fired power stations that could be mothballed and kept for emergencies like this past winter are being destroyed. Regardless of generating capacity, local distribution networks ar not up to providing all the power that would be needed for millions of BEV's. Then you have the relatively short service life of the batteries to consider.
uk.yahoo.com

‘Highly carcinogenic’ tyre toxins give electric car drivers a nasty surprise

Drivers of electric cars are unwittingly releasing more toxic tyre particles into the air than those driving petrol vehicles, experts have warned.
uk.yahoo.com uk.yahoo.com
Click to expand...

Spot on. There's a slight issue with hydrogen being so explosive at all mixtures but you can potentially adsorb it to something else or covert to ammonia. Other option is super-capacitors but they're at about the same stage of development. Both are preferable to lithium batteries and worth investing in.
 
This has got my attention. I've been driving EVs for over 10 years now to commute, have an electric motorbike too...all these alongside my petrol classics and petrol big motorbike for proper touring. But, it's got me thinking about hybrid for my 1985 petrol 90. I'd hate to lose the motor but love the idea of commuting on EV...I get to charge for free at work and home.
One way may be to fit in hub motors, there's a company that has developed these, (bedeo). That would work in that you'd fit the battery underneath and out of the way (if possible), then maybe just 2 rear electric motors. Even if you go with a relativly small battery to give you 100miles (yeah right, more like 80miles if you are lucky), that would do the trick for me. I'd be able to do local run arounds and even my commute and charge up from solar at home. I'd have rear wheel drive only, but hey, if I want to go further or tow something, fire up the old 2.25 70hp clanker!
- No idea how you'd keep drive from engine for the rear wheels
- You would not get regen...I guess, but that's not problem.
- batteries underneath might mean less off road if you like that sort of thing.
- Currently they only sell to fitters, so you'd not be able to do it yourself....that means it'll cost a lot to do.


Food for thought.
 
Grrrrrr said:
In hub motors sounds like a lot of sprung weight? I realise we're talking a 4x4 and not a sports car but might be even worse handling than it already is?
Click to expand...
Yes, this will be unsprung mass, but for my use, it would be acceptable. Their web site has an example LR running them, it's not ideal but might be a way round fitting motors elsewhere.
 
This is the Damian Maguire video about a P38 EV. Don't think he did the original work, but got it working. Bit of a mess conversion though. P38 EV

Personally I could never justify the cost, unless we win the Lottery !! Then I would get it done by the experts !!
 
pwood999 said:
This is the Damian Maguire video about a P38 EV. Don't think he did the original work, but got it working. Bit of a mess conversion though. P38 EV

Personally I could never justify the cost, unless we win the Lottery !! Then I would get it done by the experts !!
Click to expand...
yep, another EV conversion. There's 100s of them. But hybrid is a different in many ways. firstly, you keep the engine and can drive all day (these days), as you can pop into a petrol station. With the addition of doing short journeys using EV, it's not about power either, a lot of these full EV convertors charge £60k for a complete mod and it gives you loads more power etc...but for me, I'm happy with the 70hp I have, so a low power motor somewhere would be a good solution. cost will be much lower, challenges are harder, they certainly are harder for a company to sell the product. It suits a home made project more.
 
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