Electrical fault

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wammers said:
It depends what you mean by fast charging. So if i put a gel battery on my boost charger and stick 20 volts through it is will be fine then? Lead/acid or lead/acid/calcium would stand that, taking appropriate care, gel won't.
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That is not what I said as you well know.
You clearly don't know the difference between constant current and constant voltage charging.
I never quote figures off the top of my head, all the info is from manufacturers data sheets.
 
Datatek said:
That is not what I said as you well know.
You clearly don't know the difference between constant current and constant voltage charging.
I never quote figures off the top of my head, all the info is from manufacturers data sheets.
Click to expand...

Keith one of the biggest problems with lead/acid batteries is sulfation if they are not kept fully charged as you should well know. 14.2 is not enough to keep a calcium battery in this state as you should also well know. Specially if the alternator is in need of service and not giving it's best. And is certainly not enough to recover a sulfated battery to it's best state.
 
wammers said:
Keith one of the biggest problems with lead/acid batteries is sulfation if they are not kept fully charged as you should well know. 14.2 is not enough to keep a calcium battery in this state as you should also well know. Specially if the alternator is in need of service and not giving it's best. And is certainly not enough to recover a sulfated battery to it's best state.
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Strange that a year or two back, you swore blind that 13.8 volts was correct, now you have suddenly decided that 14.2 volts is not adequate, it really is a shame that LR and several other marques failed to consult you on this when they decided, in accordance with the then current data from battery manufacturer, that they would fit alternators with a 14.2 volt set point. It is true that 14.5 is better for cars doing a lot of short runs and 14.8 volts is not uncommon for the same reason.
A Lead Calcium battery will not sulphate on a car in regular use with an alternator set point at 14.2 volts. On a car not in regular use a battery will die whatever voltage the alternator output is set to.
 
Datatek said:
Strange that a year or two back, you swore blind that 13.8 volts was correct, now you have suddenly decided that 14.2 volts is not adequate, it really is a shame that LR and several other marques failed to consult you on this when they decided, in accordance with the then current data from battery manufacturer, that they would fit alternators with a 14.2 volt set point. It is true that 14.5 is better for cars doing a lot of short runs and 14.8 volts is not uncommon for the same reason.
A Lead Calcium battery will not sulphate on a car in regular use with an alternator set point at 14.2 volts. On a car not in regular use a battery will die whatever voltage the alternator output is set to.
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Strange how you have selective memory i said 13.8 was the norm for lead/acid batteries. Calcium batteries were not under discussion as i recall. 14.2 on lead/acid would eventually destroy them by boiling off the electrolyte. Although low maintenance lead/acid would be ok with it. 13.8 will not charge a calcium battery to the required level and cause sulfation. 14.2 is also low for a calcium battery and more suited to gel or more possibly low maintenance lead/acid but any higher would gas them and destroy them. Calcium batteries were not introduced because they are better batteries, but because they hold their charge better, they do not need constant top up as do lead/acid batteries in storage. Calcium/lead/acid batteries will sulfate like lead/acid if not maintained at their base voltage. 14.2 specially with lots of systems drawing power will not keep them above their base voltage specially in winter. That is why 14.4 or higher is used on all modern cars that calcium batteries have come to be normal fit on. The main point being that if you have a car with a 13.8 set point it WILL NOT keep a calcium battery topped up, 14.2 is still marginal. If a calcium battery does become sulfated in use it is possible to recover them but not with 14.2 volts it isn't.
 
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..... ducks to avoid cross fire ....

I'm about to replace my calcium lead battery after only a year or so.

Tried many time to restore it with my CTEK ...

Anyway, I thought I'd research a bit on the net and wish I hadn't started.

I've stopped now because I can't find a definitive answer to the charging voltage, and one of the articles shows Bosch in denial that (maybe) the voltage should have be upped a bit when calcium came in ... too proud to admit that their charging systems needed altering?
 
SpiggyTopes said:
..... ducks to avoid cross fire ....

I'm about to replace my calcium lead battery after only a year or so.

Tried many time to restore it with my CTEK ...

Anyway, I thought I'd research a bit on the net and wish I hadn't started.

I've stopped now because I can't find a definitive answer to the charging voltage, and one of the articles shows Bosch in denial that (maybe) the voltage should have be upped a bit when calcium came in ... too proud to admit that their charging systems needed altering?
Click to expand...

Calcium batteries that have become hard sulfated over time due to low charge set point mostly cannot be recovered. If you have a manual variable voltage charger you can try 14.8 to 15 volts for up to 24 hrs and see what you get. But don't let the battery get to hot needs watching.
 
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I tried the "restoration" cycle two weeks ago and now the battery will go to half charge but the normal cycle won't complete ...

Does this mean I should try to get a lead acid battery?

Charge voltage is 14.2 - I've checked this at length using Torque Pro.

Batteries just don't last here so it is easy to give up and just replace every year ..... but if it because of the calcium I'll persist and search for a lead acid one.
 
wammers said:
Strange how you have selective memory i said 13.8 was the norm for lead/acid batteries. Calcium batteries were not under discussion as i recall. 14.2 on lead/acid would eventually destroy them by boiling off the electrolyte. Although low maintenance lead/acid would be ok with it. 13.8 will not charge a calcium battery to the required level and cause sulfation. 14.2 is also low for a calcium battery and more suited to gel or more possibly low maintenance lead/acid but any higher would gas them and destroy them. Calcium batteries were not introduced because they are better batteries, but because they hold their charge better, they do not need constant top up as do lead/acid batteries in storage. Calcium/lead/acid batteries will sulfate like lead/acid if not maintained at their base voltage. 14.2 specially with lots of systems drawing power will not keep them above their base voltage specially in winter. That is why 14.4 or higher is used on all modern cars that calcium batteries have come to be normal fit on. The main point being that if you have a car with a 13.8 set point it WILL NOT keep a calcium battery topped up, 14.2 is still marginal. If a calcium battery does become sulfated in use it is possible to recover them but not with 14.2 volts it isn't.
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No selective memory, you denied that LC batteries were being fitted, I have consistantly pointed out that 13.8 is inadequate for modern maintenance free automotive batteries contrary to the position you originally took.
The LC battery in mine is now over 4 years old, car is used once a week and 14.2 volts has maintained it without problems. As I said more volts is better if on repeated short runs. The various manufacturers recommended range varies from 14.2 to 14.8 or more and some vehicle manufacturers are using alternators with 15.0 set points. There is no hard and fast rule apart from the 14.2 minimum.
LC were introduced as a low cost maintenance free battery (No topping up required) for automotive use, charge retention is little different from standard LA. NP series Yuasa batteries with no free liquid electrolyte hold a charge for extended periods, I start my generator once a year if it hasn't been used and the battery is still fine winter or summer GEL also hold charge well but need the regulator changed if fitted in modern cars.
 
Datatek said:
No selective memory, you denied that LC batteries were being fitted, I have consistantly pointed out that 13.8 is inadequate for modern maintenance free automotive batteries contrary to the position you originally took.
The LC battery in mine is now over 4 years old, car is used once a week and 14.2 volts has maintained it without problems. As I said more volts is better if on repeated short runs. The various manufacturers recommended range varies from 14.2 to 14.8 or more and some vehicle manufacturers are using alternators with 15.0 set points. There is no hard and fast rule apart from the 14.2 minimum.
LC were introduced as a low cost maintenance free battery (No topping up required) for automotive use, charge retention is little different from standard LA. NP series Yuasa batteries with no free liquid electrolyte hold a charge for extended periods, I start my generator once a year if it hasn't been used and the battery is still fine winter or summer GEL also hold charge well but need the regulator changed if fitted in modern cars.
Click to expand...

Low maintenance batteries fitted to the P38 which you seemed to think were Lead calcium are in fact not calcium. They are low antimony, reduced from 3% to 1% which reduced gassing and so enabled a set point of 14.2 to be used. Then followed hybrid calcium which had antimony positive and calcium negative plates. Full calcium/lead/acid have not been around for all that long. As far as i am aware all P38 diesels fitted with the A133 alternator have always had 14.2 set point to service the maintenance free batteries fitted to them. However the A133 at 80 amps was fitted to the VM engine in classics 1986 to 1991 they would certainly have had a 13.8 set point. So the ones in your P38s maybe one of those. I don't know.
 
Wow, an expert on battery chemistry to add to your other talents.
Lead Calcium was introduced for automotive use by Delco Remy in 1979 according to my info. What LR chose to fit at different times would most likely have been decided solely on price at the time. Most likely when the P38 diesel alternator went from 13.8 to 14.2 it would have been when Lead Calcium batteries were fitted. My MR2 is early 1986 it has an alternator set point of 14.5 and a Lead Calcium battery, same goes for our 1984 R11.
Lead antimony sulphates in 1/9 the time of pure lead and 1/10 the time of LC as you introduced the subject of sulphation.
Separator technology has gone from wood to natural rubber, synthetic rubber and fiberglass and other synthetic fibers. Plate chemistry has changed from pure lead, to include lead-antimony, lead-calcium, lead-selenium (and its relatives) and lead-tin.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm no expert on the complex chemistry of the various battery types, I just use the manufactures data sheets, (which show great variation in recommendations even for what are supposedly the same class of battery) when modifying alternators by fitting smart 3 stage regulators.

A Quote for you:-
Lead-Calcium Grid
The maintenance-free batteries, such as Delco Freedom batteries, uses calcium. The lead-calcium grid is strong, more resistant to corrosion as well as overcharging, gassing, water usage, and self-discharge, all of which shorten battery life in conventional lead-acid batteries. Lead calcium is used in Maintenance Free batteries. Battery construction provides a deeper well area to allow a slight water loss over the life of the battery. No provision for adding water to the cells is provided because the battery is sealed.
 
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Datatek said:
Wow, an expert on battery chemistry to add to your other talents.
Lead Calcium was introduced for automotive use by Delco Remy in 1979 according to my info. What LR chose to fit at different times would most likely have been decided solely on price at the time. Most likely when the P38 diesel alternator went from 13.8 to 14.2 it would have been when Lead Calcium batteries were fitted. My MR2 is early 1986 it has an alternator set point of 14.5 and a Lead Calcium battery, same goes for our 1984 R11.
Lead antimony sulphates in 1/9 the time of pure lead and 1/10 the time of LC as you introduced the subject of sulphation.
Separator technology has gone from wood to natural rubber, synthetic rubber and fiberglass and other synthetic fibers. Plate chemistry has changed from pure lead, to include lead-antimony, lead-calcium, lead-selenium (and its relatives) and lead-tin.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm no expert on the complex chemistry of the various battery types, I just use the manufactures data sheets, (which show great variation in recommendations even for what are supposedly the same class of battery) when modifying alternators by fitting smart 3 stage regulators.

A Quote for you:-
Lead-Calcium Grid
The maintenance-free batteries, such as Delco Freedom batteries, uses calcium. The lead-calcium grid is strong, more resistant to corrosion as well as overcharging, gassing, water usage, and self-discharge, all of which shorten battery life in conventional lead-acid batteries. Lead calcium is used in Maintenance Free batteries. Battery construction provides a deeper well area to allow a slight water loss over the life of the battery. No provision for adding water to the cells is provided because the battery is sealed.
Click to expand...

Not really interested in your MR2. Fit a lead calcium battery to a 1972 Mini and see how it goes. Are you just going to carry on trying to prove you are the world authority on battery charging. I accept you know a little more about electricary than i do. But you clearly don't know everything.
 
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