Electric Conversion....I don’t get it!!

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I quote:
'The hydrogen produced has to be compressed, chilled and transported to the hydrogen station, a process that is around 90% efficient. Once inside the vehicle, the hydrogen needs converted into electricity, which is 60% efficient. Finally the electricity used in the motor to move the vehicle is is around 95% efficient. Put together, only 38% of the original electricity – 38 watts out of 100 – are used.'
'Passenger car diesel engines have energy efficiency of up to 41% but more typically 30%, and petrol engines of up to 37.3%, but more typically 20%.'

Therefore hydrogen has very little carbon advantage over petrol or diesel cars

EV's are anywhere from 69 to 90% efficient, hydrogen has no real place in reducing global CO2 levels
 
One of the more worrying things I've read on this recently is the weight of copper per EV and how this translates into a huge increase in copper mining. You just have to look at Brazilian mine tailings dam collapses to see that this is not a huge environmental success.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brumadinho_dam_disaster
I like driving my 50 yr old diesel series and I'm in no rush to stop. I can't see how we get from here to no new ICE cars in 20 years, but my fear and the lesson from history is that these things are driven by politics and public mood and when they change they change fast. What I'm trying to do is understand it. Here's an example, 50% of this could be in a foreign language yet its about future cars:
http://www.greydient.eu/project/
The other thing about a carbon neutral (1 st world, a lot of Africa is still on high sulphur diesel - I read recently Euro 6 vans simply go into safe mode because of the emissions - then get abandoned).
We will be carbon neutral at the point of use and where we can see. I once had a squirrel problem, rang a pest control, the guy said we can shoot them or we find many people prefer the human trap. So I asked how is it humane? He said because you don't see us drown them. Zero carbon cars will be the same, as a 1st world user you will see no carbon emitted.
MJI - totally agree, DMUs, how can they ever justify that? I asked by the way. The answer it appears is that DMUs can still make the timetable with an engine out so the operator avoids late train penalties and these far outweigh the penalties for extra CO2.
Oh and my other hobby horse - hydrogen is not a fuel, its an energy transfer medium.
 
Phanc60844 said:
I quote:
'The hydrogen produced has to be compressed, chilled and transported to the hydrogen station, a process that is around 90% efficient. Once inside the vehicle, the hydrogen needs converted into electricity, which is 60% efficient. Finally the electricity used in the motor to move the vehicle is is around 95% efficient. Put together, only 38% of the original electricity – 38 watts out of 100 – are used.'
'Passenger car diesel engines have energy efficiency of up to 41% but more typically 30%, and petrol engines of up to 37.3%, but more typically 20%.'

Therefore hydrogen has very little carbon advantage over petrol or diesel cars

EV's are anywhere from 69 to 90% efficient, hydrogen has no real place in reducing global CO2 levels
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At source... I was referring to the point of delivery and efficiency of EV. I wouldn’t even begin to argue that I fully understand the whole process. EV vehicles have an advantage as this technology as undergone an awful lot of R&D over the past 20/30 years and has progressed unmeasurably, but I said in my initial post, the infrastructure for mass use is not there yet nor will be anytime soon. This will allow for further development of Hydrogen fuel cell technology to develop. Again, I am not knowledgeable enough to argue with any certainty, but I was always of the opinion that Hydrogen was a cleaner fuel. I remember reading an article in Autocar last year which covered this. I accept it wasn’t overly convincing but it made me think. I will have a search for a link.
 
This is the link....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/electric-cars/hydrogen-overhyped-it-depends

This also an interesting read, though the source is highly dubious.
https://www.hotcars.com/heres-why-hydrogens-better-battery-powered-electric-vehicles/

However, I acknowledge I am not versed well enough in the subject to fully understand the intricacies of the technology. I do however refer back to my initial post. I do not feel that the infrastructure is in place at this time to facilitate a mass switchover to EV.
 
MJI said:
I am getting ratty at goverment cuts in rail electrification.

Choice is between wiring a few miles or making the new trains hybrids, they are forcing new underfloor Diesels in so called express trains.
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I agree. Diesel trains now have no place in a modern rail network.
We're all Diesel down here, which is really backward. :confused:
 
MJI said:
I think a better idea for cars is an infrastructure which can charge on the go, or simply keep them running without battery.
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It's too inefficient, as it takes huge amounts of energy in the ground based charging coils, which unfortunately doesn't get to the vehicle receiving the charge. It's literally 5% efficient, so it's a non starter.
 
MJI said:
Motorways should have a trolley system for lorries.
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That could work. Although surely it's better to simply put all the stuff from lorries onto trains instead.
Phanc60844 said:
Ive never struggled to find one for my tesla
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And that's set to improve massively over the next decade.
Phanc60844 said:
however Im sure that when petrol vehicles became popular, there weren't enough petrol stations around at some point.
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When petrol powered vehicles first arrived, petrol was purchased by the gallon at the local hardware store, just as kerosene had been for decades before. ;)

Phanc60844 said:
Not to mention blowing off 99.9% of all other cars (unless its another tesla) off at the lights.
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Absolutely. ;)
 
Landyfox said:
At source... I was referring to the point of delivery and efficiency of EV. I wouldn’t even begin to argue that I fully understand the whole process. EV vehicles have an advantage as this technology as undergone an awful lot of R&D over the past 20/30 years and has progressed unmeasurably, but I said in my initial post, the infrastructure for mass use is not there yet nor will be anytime soon. This will allow for further development of Hydrogen fuel cell technology to develop. Again, I am not knowledgeable enough to argue with any certainty, but I was always of the opinion that Hydrogen was a cleaner fuel. I remember reading an article in Autocar last year which covered this. I accept it wasn’t overly convincing but it made me think. I will have a search for a link.
Click to expand...
Yes it is a cleaner fuel ,zero carbon when burnt or passed through a fuel cell only emissions are water. However to actually get the hydrogen uses electricity in the cleanest process and where does that come from? The other means of getting it is from methane which is alot dirtier and also extracted from crude oil, even dirtier.
Then you cant use 100% of what is produced. Any cryogenic gas will gain heat as soon as it is produced and unless you can use the gas immediately, you have to vent it to atmosphere to prevent over pressurisation. So while its at the storage tank at the production plant, in the road tanker, in the tank at the filling station to finally in your car it will vent off. Thats gas that youve paid for to produce, just floating off into the sky. You cant tell me that that makes any sense at all?
 
Landyfox said:
I disagree, there is far more scope to deliver a Hydrogen infrastructure than with the EV infrastructure. The beauty of Hydrogen is its efficiency and ability to improve its delivery.
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It's easier and cheaper to send electricity down wires to where its needed, instead of packing hydrogen tankers off all over the country, creating more energy loss and pollution as they do it.
Why send energy by road, when it comes down wires instantly, and completely pollution free.
 
Nodge68 said:
It's easier and cheaper to send electricity down wires to where its needed, instead of packing hydrogen tankers off all over the country, creating more energy loss and pollution as they do it.
Why send energy by road, when it comes down wires instantly, and completely pollution free.
Click to expand...
 
Phanc60844 said:
Better to use excess wind and solar energy to make hydrogen to store for peak electricity demand times, burning the hydogen in power stations to produce more electricity.
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I can understand the appeal of that. I suspect we will have to wait and see. Although I would be fibbing if I said I seriously believed adequately EV infrastructure will be in place for mass charging within the next 20 years. However I am always happy to be proven wrong. If or when there are more EV than there are ICE vehicles driving on UK roads in the next 20 years I will happily say that I was wrong. :D
 
Hydrogen is not a fuel, its an means to store and transport energy. It doesn't make much sense for vehicles, although there are some companies pushing it - BMW were a while back. Its big benefit is that it can be used in a lot of "legacy" equipment and its probably the one thing that can power an airliner long haul. The other big issue for hydrogen is you can shove it in the gas mains, that means you can power heating which at (our house as an example) is 18kw so if you add that to an EV per house the grid could never come close to coping (read up on the Electric Avenue study - the substation couldn't cope with 25% EVs) so they need to distribute energy using existing pipes. Trouble is you have the like of Germany - big green lobby got rid of Nuclear power so they are burning high sulphur coal and keeping quiet about it. The much heralded German clean hydrogen is 20% coal generated. Hydrogen makes sense if you make it from solar or wind even if its inefficient so long as you don't need the energy for something else, but once you burn fossil fuel to make it its a disaster, same goes if you use the renewables for hydrogen and still use the fossil fuel to heat. Hydrogen is clean at the point of use but its only clean if its clean at the point of generation too.
 
hydrogen_1.png
 
Phanc60844 said:
only at source , what?
The whole process from generation, transport and use of hydrogen is no where near as efficient in energy conversion as the direct use of electricity in EV's, end of
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I would not question the efficiency of electricity the problem that no one has yet answered is where all this electric will come from and how do we charge tens of thousands of cars ?
 
Shedload said:
I would not question the efficiency of electricity the problem that no one has yet answered is where all this electric will come from and how do we charge tens of thousands of cars ?
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Wind and solar, coupled to storage solutions.
Currently the UK can't use all the wind and solar at the time it's generated, so those sources are simply switched off.
Now if the excess energy was to be stored in massive battery banks, like those in Australia, then the power can be utilised when it's dark, or the wind isn't blowing.

If more money was spent on renewable energy sources and storage, instead of wasting billions on nuclear power stations, then we'd have plenty of green energy, without long term storage of highly radioactive waste.
 
Yuasa are already setup to sell and supply land banks in the uk.

Battery swapping only works if the car and batteries match each other. Some cars like the small pug and c1 already share the same bits. They just have a different body work on top of it. So industry has already used this idea successfully before. Battery swapping would work well for vehicles like buses and taxi's that want to work 24/7. Battery swapping already happens in fork lift trucks. Ours has a slide out battery. Use a pallet truck to swap with a charged one. Save its having to wait 6 hours for a full charge.

Peeps doubt we'll be ready for ev's and will somehow fail. The infrastructure for the future total demand isn't currently available. But it will in the future. They're working towards it with lots of plans. Petrol stations already have fast chargers. Service stations already have fast chargers. The network is growing ahead of current demand.

When peeps talk of the financial cost of the infrastructure for ev, they need to compare to the continuous costs of keeping petrol/diesel going. Petrol station refits. Tankers delivering don't last forever. The cost to change ana ev may look eggspensive but the reduction in petrol/diesel supply costs will help find the ev change.
 
Hippo said:
Yuasa are already setup to sell and supply land banks in the uk.

Battery swapping only works if the car and batteries match each other. Some cars like the small pug and c1 already share the same bits. They just have a different body work on top of it. So industry has already used this idea successfully before. Battery swapping would work well for vehicles like buses and taxi's that want to work 24/7. Battery swapping already happens in fork lift trucks. Ours has a slide out battery. Use a pallet truck to swap with a charged one. Save its having to wait 6 hours for a full charge.

Peeps doubt we'll be ready for ev's and will somehow fail. The infrastructure for the future total demand isn't currently available. But it will in the future. They're working towards it with lots of plans. Petrol stations already have fast chargers. Service stations already have fast chargers. The network is growing ahead of current demand.

When peeps talk of the financial cost of the infrastructure for ev, they need to compare to the continuous costs of keeping petrol/diesel going. Petrol station refits. Tankers delivering don't last forever. The cost to change ana ev may look eggspensive but the reduction in petrol/diesel supply costs will help find the ev change.
Click to expand...

Another VHS Betamax competition coming;).

J
 
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