Electric cars

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Electric cars are fine, just don't buy one from VW! Funny how the same car from Skoda is better, but this was the case between VW and Skoda like forever now.

Only reason we don't have one: two kids, range (EVs for this do exist) and budget (just not at a price point yet that is within budget). As soon as the second one needa to be replaced, it will be an EV (mostly around town and short distance commuting). There really is not much point in pumping oil from the ground, ruining the environment, transporting it across the globe (again ruining the environment), refine it (again...) only to distribute it across the country (you guessed it) only to burn it very in efficiently in an ICE to drive 1.3 or there abouts people around (really ruining the environment as emmissions are all over the place). Especially since we are close to have a very viable alternative in EVs.

Nobody wants to invest in the necessary infrastructure to make it work for everyone so, from renewables (growing like crazy worldwide, coupd be faster so) over networks (the real issues, grids need to be upgraded and new teansmission lines installed) to charging stations (but hey, there are some one cannot pay with a credit or debit card...).

Not that I'd give up my RRC, but then I simply never could afford it as a daily driver anyway ever. And for those max 2k miles per year I don't care about fuel cost, if I would I'd have bougjt the wrong car anyway.
 
hef19898 said:
Electric cars are fine, just don't buy one from VW! Funny how the same car from Skoda is better, but this was the case between VW and Skoda like forever now.

Only reason we don't have one: two kids, range (EVs for this do exist) and budget (just not at a price point yet that is within budget). As soon as the second one needa to be replaced, it will be an EV (mostly around town and short distance commuting). There really is not much point in pumping oil from the ground, ruining the environment, transporting it across the globe (again ruining the environment), refine it (again...) only to distribute it across the country (you guessed it) only to burn it very in efficiently in an ICE to drive 1.3 or there abouts people around (really ruining the environment as emmissions are all over the place). Especially since we are close to have a very viable alternative in EVs.

Nobody wants to invest in the necessary infrastructure to make it work for everyone so, from renewables (growing like crazy worldwide, coupd be faster so) over networks (the real issues, grids need to be upgraded and new teansmission lines installed) to charging stations (but hey, there are some one cannot pay with a credit or debit card...).

Not that I'd give up my RRC, but then I simply never could afford it as a daily driver anyway ever. And for those max 2k miles per year I don't care about fuel cost, if I would I'd have bougjt the wrong car anyway.
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Since most electricity world wide is generated from fossil fuels using very inefficient external combustion, electric cars are no panacea, they only reduce pollution in cities, overall at the moment they increase it.
 
The share of renewables is increasing faster than electricity consumption so. And if memory serves well, the full chain from fossil fuel power plant to electric motor is more efficient than a small ICE (it has been a couple of whiles since I studied that stuff at university). And with central generation, it is, in theory, easier to remove emissions. Renewables, especially wind and solar, are already cheaper than anything else.

Heck, there are already days were a grand majority of electricity is coming from renewables, so we know it is working. But until the last dime has been exctracted from fossil fuels and related tech, I don't have high hopes anything will change. Problem is, by then it might be too late.
 
hef19898 said:
The share of renewables is increasing faster than electricity consumption so. And if memory serves well, the full chain from fossil fuel power plant to electric motor is more efficient than a small ICE (it has been a couple of whiles since I studied that stuff at university). And with central generation, it is, in theory, easier to remove emissions. Renewables, especially wind and solar, are already cheaper than anything else.

Heck, there are already days were a grand majority of electricity is coming from renewables, so we know it is working. But until the last dime has been exctracted from fossil fuels and related tech, I don't have high hopes anything will change. Problem is, by then it might be too late.
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Transmission line losses, transformer losses, rectification losses for charging, inverter losses to drive the motor, excess vehicle weight, excess uncontrolled torque shredding tyres producing more particulates, unreliability, infrastructure that cannot cope with charging requirements, I could go on, there are plenty of arguments against BEV's. OK as local shopping trollies n ot much good for anything else.
 
Efficiency of a modern ICE is somewhere between 40-50% theoretical maximum. Never ever achieved in real life. Thermodynamics are a bitch. Large gas turbines are much better, size helps, they always run near the theoretical max anyway (something a car never can, ship engines are more capable of that). Also, all the wasted energy is heat, which is recovered in the case of power plants, e.g. to provide heating for industry or such. Cars cannot do that.

Transmission line losses are negligible, as are losses at the inverter. Electric motors are above 85% efficiency. PV panels are around 20% or so, but you don't really care when the "fuel" is free, abundant and clean, just build more.

Agree on vehicle weight, batteries are heavy. And infrastructure is something that can be built, for now we don't fast enough. Would be a good investment so, providing jobs, economic stimulus among other things. There is not enough pressure behind that. Personally, I couldn't care less about how my vehicle is powered, Diesel, petrol, electric doesn't matter as long as the car is doing its job and, yes, looks ok to good. Oh, and is affordable, which is somewhat of a problem at the moment.
 
hef19898 said:
Efficiency of a modern ICE is somewhere between 40-50% theoretical maximum. Never ever achieved in real life. Thermodynamics are a bitch. Large gas turbines are much better, size helps, they always run near the theoretical max anyway (something a car never can, ship engines are more capable of that). Also, all the wasted energy is heat, which is recovered in the case of power plants, e.g. to provide heating for industry or such. Cars cannot do that.

Transmission line losses are negligible, as are losses at the inverter. Electric motors are above 85% efficiency. PV panels are around 20% or so, but you don't really care when the "fuel" is free, abundant and clean, just build more.

Agree on vehicle weight, batteries are heavy. And infrastructure is something that can be built, for now we don't fast enough. Would be a good investment so, providing jobs, economic stimulus among other things. There is not enough pressure behind that. Personally, I couldn't care less about how my vehicle is powered, Diesel, petrol, electric doesn't matter as long as the car is doing its job and, yes, looks ok to good. Oh, and is affordable, which is somewhat of a problem at the moment.
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I must concur, we can all make changes to our consumption of energy in many ways that would be better than converting all cars to electric. I still need to be convinced that EV’s are not a smoke and mirrors project by the automotive industry. We are fully aware that Tesler (the scientist) had invented wireless electricity but it was shut down by the establishment so why not keep us in the dark over the true cost to the planet of manufacturing EV’s. Sadly I fear only time will tell but will it be too late for our descendants?
Tricky :cool:
 
Tricky of York said:
I must concur, we can all make changes to our consumption of energy in many ways that would be better than converting all cars to electric. I still need to be convinced that EV’s are not a smoke and mirrors project by the automotive industry. We are fully aware that Tesler (the scientist) had invented wireless electricity but it was shut down by the establishment so why not keep us in the dark over the true cost to the planet of manufacturing EV’s. Sadly I fear only time will tell but will it be too late for our descendants?
Tricky :cool:
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Rare earth are a mess, and Lithium mining isn't hreat neither. Still beats open pit coal mining and coal burning.

Climate change so is already ruining everything and everyones lives. Generally, I think all of us in the developed world are living lifestyles that are not really healthy, neither for us nor for the planet. That won't change anytime soon so. And I explicitely include myself as part of the problem here.
 
Living in a city like York I can confirm that electric vehicles, especially buses and vans have completely transformed noise and air quality in the city centre. Also the increased number of electric delivery vans across the city have made a difference to the wider environment but at what cost locally it’s almost impossible to see but when the petrol stations with their shops and car washes start to close people my get the message. Add to this the loss of local independent motor repair shops and the associated experienced staff and we’ll soon be totally dependent upon “Main Dealers (Stealers)” and we already know as Land Rover owners what that means.
I can’t see independent EV workshops popping up everywhere given the cost of training and specialist safety equipment. I can see the hourly rate moving towards £200..!!
 
Don't forget the oil fired ships to move the raw materials around the world, leaving pollution across the oceans !! I agree EV's are mostly about moving the pollution out of western cities.

Prices are still prohibitive to most people, and the charging infrastructure is a joke.
 
EVs as in cars, maybe. EVs as in scooters and as a replacement for small motor cycles on the other hand have a ton of benefits for cities in other parts of the world.

Those electrical rent-a-scooter things in our cities so do not replace anything, they allow people to walk less making them a net negative overall.
 
Ditto - Interestingly in York the electric scooters have been removed because of lack of use, clearly the good people of York like to walk everywhere. :cool:
 
So true! They peaked, in the places I know, kust nefore covid hit, back when those companies were swimming in cash. Now that the money is gone, the scooter went the way of rental bikes. We had four different brands of eScooters, with multiple standing at every street corner. Now we have one left, and one has to look for them.
 
hef19898 said:
Efficiency of a modern ICE is somewhere between 40-50% theoretical maximum. Never ever achieved in real life. Thermodynamics are a bitch. Large gas turbines are much better, size helps, they always run near the theoretical max anyway (something a car never can, ship engines are more capable of that). Also, all the wasted energy is heat, which is recovered in the case of power plants, e.g. to provide heating for industry or such. Cars cannot do that.

Transmission line losses are negligible, as are losses at the inverter. Electric motors are above 85% efficiency. PV panels are around 20% or so, but you don't really care when the "fuel" is free, abundant and clean, just build more.

Agree on vehicle weight, batteries are heavy. And infrastructure is something that can be built, for now we don't fast enough. Would be a good investment so, providing jobs, economic stimulus among other things. There is not enough pressure behind that. Personally, I couldn't care less about how my vehicle is powered, Diesel, petrol, electric doesn't matter as long as the car is doing its job and, yes, looks ok to good. Oh, and is affordable, which is somewhat of a problem at the moment.
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Line losses negligible? Not in the reports I have read, up to 18% in wet weather on UHT lines. The cumulative effect of all the line losses, transformer losses (dissipated as heat), rectification losses, inverter losses, controller losses is significant, it takes more than 100KWH to charge a 100KWH battery. add in the mining of Lithium and Cobalt, the possibly short life of the batteries and overall, BEV's are not so clean. So far it seems that the batteries cannot be recycled.
Worldwide, as I said, most electricity is generated using fossil fuels, external combustion and steam turbines, not very efficient.
 
8.5% transmission losses globally between 1960 and 2014, measured as the ration of power generated and power consumed. Not nothing, but assuming a modern fossil fuel plant the overall efficiency from power plant to EV wheels on the road is much better than for an ICE vehicle, if you look at refinery to wheels on road (and using other values is no longer an apple to apple comparison).

Steam turbine efficiency, for a full plant that is, is somewhere around 75% electrical. Pretty good actually. Of course EVs show their full benefit once the grid is 100% renewable, something that will happen one day. Transitioning cars to EVs makes it easier to later get rid of gossil fuels for electricity, the EV doesn't care how its electricity is generated.
 
It's not just the Electric bit. Raw materials mining, refining & shipping around the world. The "recycled" bit probably only includes metal stuff. As other have said, at the moment they are simply moving the emissions out of the cities. DPF does that same, storing the particulates & blasting them out on the motorways !!

Try taking thin pvc/copper wire to the local recycler . . . . they don't want it, so it goes in landfill. How much of the car plastic is recycled ? Probably not much because it cost too much to remove before crushing the whole thing.

There's not a single car breakers within 60 miles of me anymore (used to be dozens), so anything that is 2nd hand traverses the country in diesel trucks !!
 
Yeah, I spend my entire career in supply chain, and once you realize where all our stuff comes from and goes to you become a cynic. There are different degrees of bad so, getting rid of the worst is good even if enough bad remains.

This subject is a pet peeve of mine, so please excuse if I go carried away a bit.
 
hef19898 said:
Yeah, I spend my entire career in supply chain, and once you realize where all our stuff comes from and goes to you become a cynic. There are different degrees of bad so, getting rid of the worst is good even if enough bad remains.

This subject is a pet peeve of mine, so please excuse if I go carried away a bit.
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Green hydrogen will turn out to be the way forward, almost all old petrol cars can be converted much as they can be converted to LPG. BEV's are another blind alley that homo sapiens sapiens is so fond of rushing down.
 
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