Discovery 5 Discovery 2018 Engine Failure | Replacement

Hi, I'd choose MDRS if i was you with the addentum to ask them to check the DPF as Romjin's assumption seems the most logical while that Bullevard's "injectors will damage engine if degraded" seems a bit b0ll0x to me just be awaare that i'm not an expert. Good luck what ever you decide

I reckon any small high-speed common rail diesel needs its injectors changing at about 100,000 miles.
as you are going all in I would expect new injectors and a new turbo, mainly for peace of mind.
whoever has the best guarantee would get my vote.

Thanks for the replies. I've also consulted ChatGPT and this is the link to its response (scroll to the bottom), also pasted here:

It’s understandable that you're confused by the differing opinions from garages and forum members about the turbo, injectors, and diesel particulate filter (DPF) on your Land Rover. Here's a breakdown of these components and potential issues based on common automotive knowledge:

1. Turbocharger​

• High Mileage Wear: Turbochargers are subjected to extreme heat and pressure, so over time, they can wear out, especially with low oil levels or the wrong oil type. Oil is crucial for lubricating and cooling the turbo’s bearings. If incorrect oil was used or the engine ran low on oil, this could accelerate turbo wear. At 127,000 km, replacing the turbo is a precaution some mechanics might take, especially given the oil-related issues in your case.
• Testing First: Since the turbo hasn’t outright failed yet, testing for boost pressure and signs of excessive oil in the turbo housing is a reasonable approach. Replacing it based solely on mileage isn't always necessary unless there are signs of wear or oil issues.

2. Injectors​

• Can Degraded Injectors Damage the Engine? Yes, injectors can cause engine damage if they aren’t functioning correctly. Worn or clogged injectors can lead to improper fuel delivery, which could cause engine misfires, inefficient combustion, or excess fuel entering the exhaust system. This can create additional strain on components like the catalytic converter or DPF, and in extreme cases, damage pistons or valves.
• Mileage and Injector Life: Diesel injectors generally last a long time, but around 100,000-150,000 km is when they might start wearing down. That said, there’s no set rule for automatic replacement at a particular mileage. Many injectors can last much longer if fuel quality has been good and they haven’t been under excessive stress.
• Testing: It makes sense to test the injectors' spray pattern and flow rates. If they’re functioning well, replacing them preemptively might not be necessary.

3. Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF)​

• Excessive Oil Consumption: Oil consumption can affect the DPF, as oil particles can clog it if they pass through the exhaust system. This might lead to excessive soot buildup, requiring cleaning or replacement.
• DPF Maintenance: At 127,000 km, a DPF may need cleaning, but replacing it depends on its current condition. If it has been subjected to frequent short trips, clogged regenerations, or excess oil/smoke, it could be degraded. However, if the vehicle has been driven at highway speeds and the DPF has had a chance to regenerate properly, it may still be in good condition.

Differing Opinions: What's Going On?​

The mechanics are focusing on different aspects:

• MDRS Automotive emphasizes turbo replacement due to mileage but doesn’t expect issues with injectors or DPF.
• Bullevard suggests replacing injectors, as degraded injectors could damage the engine, but says they will test the turbo and DPF.
• Romijn Den Haag suggests turbo replacement due to oil issues and attention to the DPF due to excessive oil consumption, but no injector replacement.

The different opinions likely come from each mechanic emphasizing what they think is most at risk based on their expertise and the known oil problem.

General Advice​

1. Turbo: Given the oil issues and mileage, replacing the turbo may be worth considering, but testing it first is a smart move.
2. Injectors: If they’re not showing signs of degradation or poor spray patterns, replacing them preemptively may not be necessary, but testing them would be wise. If they are degrading, they could cause engine problems.
3. DPF: Due to the oil consumption, cleaning or replacing the DPF might be necessary. Testing the DPF's soot levels and regeneration ability should be done before deciding.

Conclusion:​

Testing components (turbo, injectors, DPF) before replacing is the most balanced approach. Only replace parts that show signs of wear or malfunction.

Given your vehicle’s mileage and the oil issues, replacing the turbo might be wise, but injectors and DPF should be addressed based on actual condition, not solely on mileage.

This approach allows you to avoid unnecessary expenses while still addressing potential risks due to oil and wear issues.

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In summary, ChatGPT's opinion is that I should probably replace the turbo, but have all components (turbo, injectors, DPF) tested before replacing.

I'll call MDRS and Bullevard about this tomorrow, but I'm concerned that Bullevard might be a bit resistant based on the price offer they made.

Bullevard originally quoted me €15k for a new engine and €1600 additional to replace the injectors (if required). When I presented MDRS's more favourable quote, they changed the quote to €15k including injectors.

However, I spoke to Bullevard again yesterday, and they said that they always charge €15k for an engine and injectors because they cannot provide a warranty without the injectors being replaced, and for customers that insist, they will replace only the engine for €13.5k without a warranty.

So, I'm not sure if he tried to pull a fast one initially - he said he misquoted.

In any case, I would prefer to use Bullevard ideally if only because they're local to where I live and this would make it much easier in the event of any snags or warranty issues. But I would really like to get to the bottom of how a new engine would not have a warranty if the injectors are not replaced. I'm pretty sure that they would have to prove that the old injectors damaged the new engine. I did ask if the injectors can be tested. He said they can, but the test will only confirm that they are good at that moment. It would not confirm that they would be about to fail, and this is why he insists on new injectors for the purpose of the warranty, even if the old injectors are successfully tested.

It all feels a bit dubious or vague to me, but I'm in the unfortunate position of not being an expert or having access to anyone who seems to have a definitive answer.

Plenty of modern diesels are destroyed by fuelling issues. I have a good mate who's an engine reconditioner and my brother-in-law owns a diesel shop (injection and turbos).

Both have many stories about fuelling issues and major problems. One guy had to rebuild his Nissan engine TWICE, after not fixing the overfueling that caused the first fault, so the rebuild only lasted about 20,000 miles. Once the engine was done, the Maf replaced with a non-faulty one and the injectors all tested/replaced; it's been fine since... but cost the guy a fortune.

Old mechanical diesels need adjusments and injector servicing to run properly. Modern diesels, require more testing and replacement, as many injectors aren't as serviceable as the old ones.

I've decided to go with Bullevard for €15k including injectors. It's more or less comparable to MDRS given the transport costs that would be involved with going to MDRS, and I'd prefer to keep it local to where I live (at least in the same country!). This will also likely make it easier when suing the seller which I am now in active contact with a lawyer about who is going to send them an initial formal letter (I've already drafted the subpoena ready for serving by bailiffs at a later stage).

One question. Should I get to keep my existing engine when I get it replaced? And can I sell it to recoup some costs? It may even be the case that I need to keep it in case the seller of my car requires to have it inspected for the later legal proceedings.

Depends on the agreement. In the uk they normally exchange the engine. You get a discount if giving back the same type engine to the supplier, if it can be fixed.

I'm now in a legal process with the seller. I've informed them that 3 litres of oil had to be topped up 9 months (by Romijn) after purchasing the vehicle (they confirmed the oil level was good at that point) to demonstrate that it was consuming excessive oil. They have responded claiming that it is normal to consume half a litre per 1000 km. I find this ridiculous, because that means it will use all the oil in less than 12,000 km given that the capacity is 5.9 litres, especially as the service interval is 34,000 km.

However, I want to confirm that the oil was not below the minimum marker when it was topped up with 3 litres. Assuming the maximum marker represents 5.9 litres, and that it was topped up to this point by Romijn, what level in litres does the minimum marker represent?

The replacement engine has been in for just over a month and it's done easily a thousand miles in that time and also had an oil change after 3 weeks. The car has been running well. Then this started happening:


It only happens when the engine is warm at the end of a drive, and not every time. I took the car to Bullevard this morning (where the engine was replaced) and they assured us that it's steam from residual excess water in the exhaust system from the previous engine fault, and will stop happening after a few thousand miles. They checked the coolant and oil, and all was OK.

I smelled the plumes and it was certainly poignant (not pure steam), but it didn't seem like smoke.

Anyone seen anything like this before?

It certainly looks like steam in how it settles down, but if it smells poignant as you suggest then I would say it could be fuel related, any coolant should be burnt off within a few hundred kms at the most, unless you are doing very short journeys.
I assume it is not using any coolant/oil etc?
If you poke your finger up the tailpipe, is it just water there or oil/diesel?


Not so long back I read of one car dealer who bought a car and they coudl not get it to run right, it had new injectors etc, in the end a specialist sussed it, and they were the correct injectors for the car, just not that engine, seems serial nos are everything.

lynall said:

It certainly looks like steam in how it settles down, but if it smells poignant as you suggest then I would say it could be fuel related, any coolant should be burnt off within a few hundred kms at the most, unless you are doing very short journeys.
I assume it is not using any coolant/oil etc?
If you poke your finger up the tailpipe, is it just water there or oil/diesel?


Not so long back I read of one car dealer who bought a car and they coudl not get it to run right, it had new injectors etc, in the end a specialist sussed it, and they were the correct injectors for the car, just not that engine, seems serial nos are everything.

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Hopefully a Land Rover Discovery is not that complicated when it comes to varieties of engines and injectors, especially as two injectors were replaced as part of my engine replacement.

The vehicle doesn't seem to be using any coolant or oil. The garage checked these, and they were fine.

I'm away at present, but I'll check the tailpipe for oil/diesel when I'm back end of this week.

In the meantime, I asked ChatGPT for its opinion:

The presence of steam from the exhaust, particularly if it is intermittent and occurs when the engine is warm, may not necessarily be a cause for immediate concern, especially given the recent engine replacement and assurances from Bullevard. However, the pungent smell and the fact that it is not purely steam warrant keeping an eye on the situation. Here's a breakdown of what might be happening:

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1. Residual Moisture in the Exhaust System​

• Explanation: During the engine failure, excessive oil consumption or coolant leaks may have introduced contaminants (oil, water, or coolant) into the exhaust system, including the catalytic converter and DPF. These contaminants can take time to fully burn off, resulting in steam and potentially a lingering odour.
• Bullevard’s Assurance: If they inspected the coolant and oil levels and found them stable, their explanation of residual moisture is plausible. It can take several thousand miles for all contaminants to clear, particularly if the system wasn't replaced entirely.

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2. Signs of an Active Coolant Leak​

• Smell: A pungent or sweet smell might indicate coolant burning in the exhaust due to a small leak, even if the levels appear stable.
• Indicators:
  • Frequent need to top up coolant.
  • Thick white "steam" that lingers in the air (coolant vapour is denser than regular steam).
  • Potential overheating or engine performance issues.
• What to Do: Monitor the coolant level over the next few drives. If you notice any decrease, it may point to a leak, and further investigation would be needed (e.g., head gasket, EGR cooler).

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3. Oil Contamination​

• Odour: Oil in the exhaust system can produce a pungent smell when it burns off, especially if residue from the old engine remains in the exhaust.
• Indicators:
  • Blueish tint to the steam/smoke.
  • Oily residue in the exhaust pipe.
• What to Do: If the smell persists or changes (e.g., becomes more burnt), have Bullevard recheck the exhaust system for oil contamination.

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4. Normal Water Vapour​

• Explanation: All combustion engines produce water as a byproduct of fuel combustion. This water can condense in the exhaust system when the engine cools and turn into visible steam when the system warms up.
• Why it Might Be Intermittent: Environmental factors like humidity, ambient temperature, and driving style can influence when and how much water vapour appears.

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What You Should Monitor​

• Coolant Levels: Check weekly to ensure no unexpected loss.
• Oil Levels: Ensure these remain stable.
• Performance Issues: Watch for misfires, overheating, or unusual engine noise.
• Exhaust Characteristics: Pay attention to the colour and smell of the emissions. If it shifts to blue smoke or becomes excessively dense, this may indicate oil or coolant burning.

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When to Escalate​

• If the steam persists beyond a few thousand miles or becomes more frequent.
• If there are drops in coolant or oil levels.
• If engine performance deteriorates or warning lights appear.

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Conclusion​

Bullevard’s explanation aligns with known scenarios after an engine replacement, especially if residual water or contaminants were left in the exhaust system. While it’s reasonable not to be overly concerned at this stage, continued monitoring is essential. If the issue persists or worsens, seek a second opinion or request additional diagnostic checks, such as a compression test or exhaust gas analysis, to rule out underlying issues like a small coolant or oil leak.

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I've seen this type of (steam) when an engine is cold or the outside temperature is well into the minus degrees.
Are you doing short journeys, where condensation builds in the exhaust, this can be an issue.
But I drive many thousands of miles a year and I can't say I've noticed this after a long drive.

They didn't fit a hydrogen engine by mistake