Defender TD5_Gear Shift 1st-2d

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I've got this model. I had the original factory R380 and then a few years ago it got very noisy so I fitted a reconditioned box, so I've had both. It's perfectly happy pulling away in second unless you're going up a steep slope. I just use first as a crawler gear for very low speed precision manoeuvring such as getting into a tight parking space or for setting off on steep hills.
 
Brown said:
I've got this model. I had the original factory R380 and then a few years ago it got very noisy so I fitted a reconditioned box, so I've had both. It's perfectly happy pulling away in second unless you're going up a steep slope. I just use first as a crawler gear for very low speed precision manoeuvring such as getting into a tight parking space or for setting off on steep hills.
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Hello Brown,
Thank you very much for your quick reply. The reason for you pulling away in 2d is because of the difficult (not smooth) 1st to 2d up-shift on the R380 if you rev it high while changing or shift after 15 km/h. Right ?
 
Chalky. said:
If you do the gear change nice and slow it allows the synchros, which may be slightly worn, to disengage and engage.

You cannot do quick snatch gear changes on any older landrover gearbox.

And change from first to second almost as soon as the wheels are rolling. You can also double de-clutch to engage easier.
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+1 ^
 
Cars I drove when I first started driving never had synchro on 1st.
And were often worn in 2nd.
I was taught to take it from first then pause in neutral then put it in 2nd.
In fact you should do that in all gear changes to allow the synchromesh to synch the two gears.
Double declutching does the same but better, and to me is more fun, but again that takes longer in a 4x4.
I was taught to change from 1st to 2nd within 3 car lengths. That still works today.
 
" it allows the synchros, which may be slightly worn, to disengage and engage."

This is a bit mad, but I only learned the other day, and this is after having rebuilt a few gearboxes, :rolleyes: ,that the synchro rings do not stay stuck to the gear wheels once the change has been made, so they do not disengage as such.
When you push the gearlever in to engage the next gear, the synchro ring gets pressed up against the gear wheel and speeds it up or slows it down until the gears can be slipped into position with one another. Then when you release the gear lever the synchro ring slides away a fraction.
Or at least that is how I understand it.
Others will clarify if I am wrong or haven't quite got it right!
 
I don't have a problem going from first to second on either of my R380 gearboxes. It's just less to do if I pull away in second. Plus, as I'm usually at a junction it allows me to focus on steering with both hands and looking for traffic, whichis a better use of my time. First is a bit notchy to get into but that's the gate rather than the gearbox internals per se. Similarly, going from second to third I find easiest if I let go of the lever and let it float for a moment and allow the springs to find the gate. If I try to do it with my hand on the lever the whole time it's much more difficult, and it feels like it's not going to go in. But that's just the peculiarities of the driving experience and I got used to them quite quickly.
 
Tyically the reason 1st and 2nd feel stiff or clash is because there is still some drive going through the gearbox from the clutch and the laysheft is (consequently) not at rest.

To test this you should remove a propshaft and with the car well chocked, look at the output of the LT230.
With engine running around 1500rpm with the R380 in neutral the output should not be moving at all.
It shouldn't feel any stiffer in any direction when you try and move it by hand either.

In first, it will of course spin, however when you engage the clutch it should stop insantly and no movement should be detected as you move the gearstick between 1st and Neutral,
The same applies to second.
As long as the clutch is engaged (pressed) the output shaft of the LT230 should have no drive or torque aplied to it.
Moveing between 1st and 2nd should not offer any movement nand should be relatively slick.

If it is spinning (or feels tight) then the clutch is not full disengaging,
If that is the case then in 4th gear (straight through 1:1) would would see some movement relative to the engine speed even if you have pinned the clutch pedal to the floor.

Come back once you have complete these tests and if you still have a problem.
 
miktdish said:
Tyically the reason 1st and 2nd feel stiff or clash is because there is still some drive going through the gearbox from the clutch and the laysheft is (consequently) not at rest.

To test this you should remove a propshaft and with the car well chocked, look at the output of the LT230.
With engine running around 1500rpm with the R380 in neutral the output should not be moving at all.
It shouldn't feel any stiffer in any direction when you try and move it by hand either.

In first, it will of course spin, however when you engage the clutch it should stop insantly and no movement should be detected as you move the gearstick between 1st and Neutral,
The same applies to second.
As long as the clutch is engaged (pressed) the output shaft of the LT230 should have no drive or torque aplied to it.
Moveing between 1st and 2nd should not offer any movement nand should be relatively slick.

If it is spinning (or feels tight) then the clutch is not full disengaging,
If that is the case then in 4th gear (straight through 1:1) would would see some movement relative to the engine speed even if you have pinned the clutch pedal to the floor.

Come back once you have complete these tests and if you still have a problem.
Click to expand...
Hi miktdish. Thanks for the above. So why this behavior appears only on up shifting from 1st to 2d ? If clutch doesn’t disengage well we should have a problem on other gears (3, 4 & 5). Right ?
 
Julien_Paris said:
Hi miktdish. Thanks for the above. So why this behavior appears only on up shifting from 1st to 2d ? If clutch doesn’t disengage well we should have a problem on other gears (3, 4 & 5). Right ?
Click to expand...

It the clutch is slightly dragging then there is always some 'spin' going on but the 1st and 2nd layshafts spin the fastest, so it's more noticable.
3rd is only slightly faster and 4th spins the same as the engine with 5th being slower than the engine.
The effect is negligable in these gears.
 
Yes, that's my experience of the R380 too. It doesn't like changing gear at all if there's any power getting transmitted. There might be a tiny bit of movement coming through with the clutch disengaged, because after all, the gearbox input shaft goes in a bronze bush on the back of the crankshaft, but the power is negligible. A couple of other possibilities that I've noted on mine: 1) check clutch fluid - it can be low, in which case it may not be disengaging the plates fully. If it looks very dark it might be that the seals are deteriorating and letting fluid past. It doesn't hurt to give it a bleed to make sure it's not ingested any air. 2) I had a faulty slave cylinder once which made it very difficult to change gear, particularly after a long run. The fluid wasn't dripping out the bottom, but I think it was somehow allowing fluid to bypass the piston. It was like that from new. Eventually I changed it for another one and everything was fine, with nice easy gearchanges.
 
miktdish said:
Tyically the reason 1st and 2nd feel stiff or clash is because there is still some drive going through the gearbox from the clutch and the laysheft is (consequently) not at rest.

To test this you should remove a propshaft and with the car well chocked, look at the output of the LT230.
With engine running around 1500rpm with the R380 in neutral the output should not be moving at all.
It shouldn't feel any stiffer in any direction when you try and move it by hand either.

In first, it will of course spin, however when you engage the clutch it should stop insantly and no movement should be detected as you move the gearstick between 1st and Neutral,
The same applies to second.
As long as the clutch is engaged (pressed) the output shaft of the LT230 should have no drive or torque aplied to it.
Moveing between 1st and 2nd should not offer any movement nand should be relatively slick.

If it is spinning (or feels tight) then the clutch is not full disengaging,
If that is the case then in 4th gear (straight through 1:1) would would see some movement relative to the engine speed even if you have pinned the clutch pedal to the floor.

Come back once you have complete these tests and if you still have a problem.
Click to expand...
Hello,

Tried another tip without removing anything. LT230 transfer box in Neutral. Engine running in stationary (so with drive going out from the engine to gearbox). I can change 1st and 2d gear smoothly without even using the clutch. So the synchros on 1st and 2d are in good conditions. I think the difficult up-shift 1st to 2d is more of a combination between Transfer box resistance on first gears, High rev (should not high rev on first gear), and road speed match to get a smooth 1st to 2d shift. What do you thing ?
 
Last edited:
Julien_Paris said:
Hello,

Tried another tip without removing anything. LT230 transfer box in Neutral. Engine running in stationary (so with drive going out from the engine to gearbox). I can change 1st and 2d gear smoothly without even using the clutch. So the synchros on 1st and 2d are in good conditions. I think the difficult up-shift 1st to 2d is more of a combination between Transfer box resistance on first gears, High rev (should not high rev on first gear), and road speed match to get a smooth 1st to 2d shift. What do you thing ?
Click to expand...
I’d be changing gearbox oil with the genuine mtf94 in a Land Rover bottle
 
Julien_Paris said:
Hello discodevon - original MTF94 already in. Gearbox doesn’t like fast gear change 1st to 2d if high rev or above 10-15 km/h. Also, I should mention that when cold impossible to shift 2d.
Click to expand...
Did you bleed the clutch properly and is the slave cylinder new?
 
Julien_Paris said:
@miktdish Hello, No I don't dare to remove anything as I am not a mechanic. I did a different test as stated above. Thnak you very much for your attention on this matter. Much appreciated.
Click to expand...

If you can't undo eight nuts and bolts then I can't help you any further and neither can anyone else.

Also you maybe should have not have bought a Defender as these cars do need a fair amount of care and attention which will become very expensive using a garage to do these simple jobs.
 
miktdish said:
If you can't undo eight nuts and bolts then I can't help you any further and neither can anyone else.

Also you maybe should have not have bought a Defender as these cars do need a fair amount of care and attention which will become very expensive using a garage to do these simple jobs.
Click to expand...
I have to agree with miktdish.

Something that really grinds my gears, is someone saying they can't do something because they haven't received a fancy piece of paper saying they passed a course (which I have) or because they don't have a title.

Ask yourself, do you really think 95% of people here are mechanics. I am a 100% self-made DIY. Owned my truck for 3 years now. I have not let another man put his hands on her. Brake, wheel bearings, maintenance, suspension, next is clutch + flywheel etc. learnt it all on forums, research, determination and a little masculinity.
 
When I was young we never had any money and almost everything was broken. So I started taking things to pieces as this was unlikely to make matters worse, and sometimes made them better. This sort of thing was carried forward into later life. It would be prohibitively expensive to have a Land Rover if you didn't do it yourself!
 
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