Defender 90 TD5 - Remapped. Power issues beyond 65mph

Chalky. · Dec 23, 2016

ozzyboydeano said:
I rebuild turbos mate I also install them I also diagnose why the turbo could of failed
please listen or least view the links I provided I have read yours

here is a VGT variable geometry turbo ..please tell me what happened to this and why do I have it sitting on the bench ?

And yet you STILL don't understand how a turbo works.

jamesmartin · Dec 23, 2016

ozzyboydeano said:
yes straight through is less restriction but if you thing the turbo is cold why not place your hand on the hot side of the turbo
there is allot of confusion about this
the hot side is the exhaust part where the exhaust turbine is housed ..let me know if its cool or cold after a drive just saying

turbo does get very hot very quick because expansion of gasses is caused by combustion ,losses from cooling from the manifold and turbo casing would come from the gas becoming more dense so have less force flow,is fractional

bankz5152 · Dec 23, 2016

Ive got a Stack boost gauge. When revving high it hits around 8 - 10psi. Tapped off the inlet manifold.

I did read some of it, just not all of it. I did explain that turbo blankets are basically snake oil.

ozzyboydeano · Dec 23, 2016

Gottschalk said:
And yet you STILL don't understand how a turbo works.

I'm not here to play cat and mouse am tying to share my knowledge to the brains I had when I was still in school and collage my city and guild mean nothing then
its a known fact
as for the hot side
no fuel no heat no oxygen no heat

as for the cold side of the turbo like I said yes we need to cool the air

but the hot side where the turbo scavenges the heat is a different thing

sierrafery · Dec 23, 2016

Guys, i've read with interest this "debate" about heat in the turbo and i have to agree with ozzyboydeano , heat in the turbine side of the turbocharger is not neglectable at all even on small turbos(provided it's gained in normal operating conditions not by overfuelling), i fitted a turbo blanket on mine and i can feel a slight improvement in throttle response, the intercooler size or wastegate setting has nothing to do with that IMO, the turbine works on exhaust and the compressor on inlet-intake... at a certain boost which means same exhaust pressure if the heat is kept in the turbine it will spin faster, that's a fact, if the management is faultyless the EGT will rise on unproper driver demand/gear conjunction which means lower rpm with higher fuelling so lower boost at higher IAT but the effect of excessive EGT is not couneracting the lack of rpm for the turbo speed whatsoever...and so on, i hope this makes sense for those who think that heat in the turbine is futile

i reiterate, i have a turbo blanket fitted and there is a slight improvement in low speed throttle response... though i have a forge wastegate actuator as well

bankz5152 · Dec 23, 2016

How is the Forge actuator? I was thinking about getting one for mine

ozzyboydeano · Dec 23, 2016

bankz5152 said:
Ive got a Stack boost gauge. When revving high it hits around 8 - 10psi. Tapped off the inlet manifold.

I did read some of it, just not all of it. I did explain that turbo blankets are basically snake oil.

try 2000 rpm not high high revs
then go for a drive and cruze at the same rpm
the inducer and exducer turbines are to small for this engine

since you have a boost gauge

not to sure if your manuel or auto but cruzing down the motor way you can slowly push on the peddle boost rises but rpm is still down low

sierrafery · Dec 23, 2016

bankz5152 said:
How is the Forge actuator? I was thinking about getting one for mine

IMO it worths every penny of it, much better throttle response at low revs and smoother boost increasement... it was fitted prior of the blanket so the effect of the blanket was complementary

ozzyboydeano · Dec 23, 2016

sierrafery said:
IMO it worths every penny of it, much better throttle response at low revs and smoother boost increasement... it was fitted prior of the blanket so the effect of the blanket was complementary

do you let the turbo idle down .I found when I wrapped mine I needed to idle down longer .I could here whistle coming from the exhaust and after 1 minute the whistle would fade off this told me the turbo was cooler

I unwrapped mine but left the manifold wrapped reason being my engine does allot of stop and starts through out the day .I do have an accumulator tank installed this works really well after shut down

sierrafery · Dec 23, 2016

I dont quite understand what you are asking about that "idle down" thing, after a long run i always let it about 30 seconds to idle before i turn the ignition off... i dont feel any negative side effects of the blanket... i have the feeling that even the ECT(not EGT) is a bit lower at full load since which is also good for the fuelling

Farmer Brown · Dec 23, 2016

Just had a look through the argument on here. As a neutral I am happy to say that heat does not spin turbo's, it is expanding/exploding exhaust gases that do and the more fuel going into an engine the more exhaust gases there are to go through the turbo. More load on an engine means more fuel which means more exhaust gases which means turbo boost which means more air being pumped through the intercooler into the engine to allow it to burn more fuel. Also some turbos work better with a bit of back pressure, some prefer a straight through less restrictive exhaust as it allows the exhaust gases to go through them quicker and spool them up faster. Dump valves also help some turbos spool quicker by releasing back pressure on the turbo and some engines like my focus RS use a recirc valve to do the same in a better fashion.

A better example than a Landrover is a large turbo diesel like a combine or tractor. I've stood up on the back of a combine with a 7.5 litre turbo diesel working hard at night and seen the turbo glowing red hot within minutes of it starting to work, that engine would have been burning perhaps 30+ litres of diesel an hour which obviously generates a lot of heat and gases resulting in a lot of boost through its huge turbo. it doesn't take long for a turbo to get so hot you can't touch it when working on one. Usually a few seconds is enough!

Turbo blankets are not to keep turbos warm but to stop hot turbos overheating the engine bay and affecting other things such as intake temperatures. Any benefit you see from this will be because of lower intake temps rather than a hotter turbo, lower intake temps mean more oxygen as colder air is more dense and therefore contains more oxygen in any given volume. A maf sensor is to measure the amount of oxygen going into the engine so the management system knows how much fuel to introduce into the mix.

ozzyboydeano · Dec 23, 2016

sierrafery said:
I dont quite understand what you are asking about that "idle down" thing, after a long run i always let it about 30 seconds to idle before i turn the ignition off... i dont feel any negative side effects of the blanket... i have the feeling that even the ECT is a bit lower at full load since which is also good for the fuelling

sorry mate my workshop lingo is coming out ..I mean idle down time

that's good you let it idle down for 30 seconds ..another tip that works is changing driving style 2 minutes before getting to your destination
a big killer in turbos is the bearing seating.. basically the bearing sitting in one spot to long while cooling down ..bit like a brake disk brake pads fully pressed red hot and sit there for to long .eventually some thing will warp due to heat transfer

wrapping the turbo and manifold also keeps under bonnet temps down means more time for heat soak

sierrafery · Dec 23, 2016

Farmer Brown said:
1.Turbo blankets are not to keep turbos warm but to stop hot turbos overheating the engine bay and affecting other things such as intake temperatures. Any benefit you see from this will be because of lower intake temps rather than a hotter turbo, lower intake temps mean more oxygen as colder air is more dense and therefore contains more oxygen in any given volume. 2.A maf sensor is to measure the amount of oxygen going into the engine so the management system knows how much fuel to introduce into the mix.

Don't think i dont know what i'm talking about though, i made some research before fitting that blanket and i think i know exactly how the Td5's engine management works,

1. read this: source http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1103-turbocharger-heat-shielding-fact-fiction/ but if you take the time to google out "turbo blanket benefits" you'll find many answers... even the myth busters tried to kill it and they failed

"The theory is simple: Heat is energy, and gas expands more the hotter it becomes. More heat kept in a turbo manifold or inside a turbine housing equates to more pressure (energy) that can be directed through a turbine wheel, improving turbine performance, and subsequently compressor performance, for an increase in overall boost pressure and a decrease in the time it takes to build that pressure.

To test the claim, we collaborated with engine insulation specialists Protech Performance (PTP), and commenced back-to-back testing with a turbocharged Miata and the Dynojet dynamometer and infrared pyrometer of the crew's facility in Austin, TX. The first series of runs was performed with nothing insulating the car's GT35R turbocharger. The second group was done with a PTP blanket (PN FPR03S-003) surrounding the turbine. Both groups of testing involved multiple back-to-back runs, at operating temperature, with the hood closed.

Photo 5/9 | Turbocharger Heat Shielding - Fact Or Fiction
Recording temperatures at the turbo compressor inlet and valve cover upon the completion of each run verified that the blanket staved off temperatures, as we knew it would. And as we suspected, power and torque increases-as well as a spool time decreases-were present as well.

The Verdict:
Although the gains weren't humongous, neither was our 1.8L BP Miata engine or its turbocharger. The benefits this simple modification could bring to something like a time-attack RX-7 would likely make it one of the most cost-effective power increasing mods one could make, and as always, the decreased underhood temperatures mean better radiator performance, cooler intake charges, and longer life for vacuum lines and wiring harnesses."

2. MAF doesnt measure oxygen but the air mass which IMO is not the same

i'd say better make some research before emitting contradictory oppinions... which otherwise are always welcome

ozzyboydeano · Dec 23, 2016

Farmer Brown said:
Just had a look through the argument on here. As a neutral I am happy to say that heat does not spin turbo's, it is expanding exhaust gases that do
.

you guys are unreal

the turbo is not free energy like a windmill

those expanding gasses are they cold are hot

Chalky. · Dec 23, 2016

Yes they are hot, the main proponant of the the turbine spinning up is the fu'k off amount of exhaust gas being pushed through

sierrafery · Dec 23, 2016

Gottschalk said:
Yes they are hot, the main proponant of the the turbine spinning up is the fu'k off amount of exhaust gas being pushed through

so is the amount of fuel and air for the engine...but either's temperature is important in how the engine is running ... like the exhaust gas's fu'kin temperature within the turbine

i rest my case on this...believe it or not

Chalky. · Dec 23, 2016

sierrafery said:
so is the amount of fuel and air for the engine...but either's temperature is important in how the engine is running ... like the exhaust gas's fu'kin temperature within the turbine

i rest my case on this...believe it or not

Yes it may be important, but its not the MAIN source of energy from which makes the turbine spin up, that comes from the flow of gas

Farmer Brown · Dec 23, 2016

sierrafery said:
Don't think i dont know what i'm talking about though, i made some research before fitting that blanket and i think i know exactly how the Td5's engine management works,

1. read this: source http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1103-turbocharger-heat-shielding-fact-fiction/ but if you take the time to google out "turbo blanket benefits" you'll find many answers... even the myth busters tried to kill it and they failed

"The theory is simple: Heat is energy, and gas expands more the hotter it becomes. More heat kept in a turbo manifold or inside a turbine housing equates to more pressure (energy) that can be directed through a turbine wheel, improving turbine performance, and subsequently compressor performance, for an increase in overall boost pressure and a decrease in the time it takes to build that pressure.

To test the claim, we collaborated with engine insulation specialists Protech Performance (PTP), and commenced back-to-back testing with a turbocharged Miata and the Dynojet dynamometer and infrared pyrometer of the crew's facility in Austin, TX. The first series of runs was performed with nothing insulating the car's GT35R turbocharger. The second group was done with a PTP blanket (PN FPR03S-003) surrounding the turbine. Both groups of testing involved multiple back-to-back runs, at operating temperature, with the hood closed.

Photo 5/9 | Turbocharger Heat Shielding - Fact Or Fiction
Recording temperatures at the turbo compressor inlet and valve cover upon the completion of each run verified that the blanket staved off temperatures, as we knew it would. And as we suspected, power and torque increases-as well as a spool time decreases-were present as well.

The Verdict:
Although the gains weren't humongous, neither was our 1.8L BP Miata engine or its turbocharger. The benefits this simple modification could bring to something like a time-attack RX-7 would likely make it one of the most cost-effective power increasing mods one could make, and as always, the decreased underhood temperatures mean better radiator performance, cooler intake charges, and longer life for vacuum lines and wiring harnesses."

2. MAF doesnt measure oxygen but the air mass which IMO is not the same

i'd say better make some research before emitting contradictory oppinions... which otherwise are always welcome

Two things.

1. That test was not a proper test with controls as they admit that the turbo insulation will have had an effect on intake temperatures and radiator performance. Cooler air means more oxygen which equals the ability to burn more fuel which means more power. Until you show me a test where the intake temps are exactly the same for the engine, I.e on test beds connected to a dyno I do not agree that the extra temp of the insulated turbo is making the difference. I am fully aware that gas expands as it is heated but the biggest expansion going on here is liquid diesel turning to exhaust gases and as the gases are coming through the exhaust manifold at X hundred degrees C a bit of heat loss from the manifold and turbo isn't going to make a massive difference as you already have heat loss through the engine block itself ( you gonna insulate that as well?) which of course has a water jacket, pump and radiator attached designed to keep it cool, or certainly as much of a difference as the cooler intake temps.

2. A maf sensor does measure air density, which in turn allows the engine management system to calculate how much oxygen is available. Why is it effectively the same thing? Because all air is 20.95% oxygen by volume and therefore the colder or denser the air the more oxygen it contains in a given volume because the molecules in the air are closer together. That is why a heavily boosted engine, like the one in my focus RS puts out more power on cold frosty mornings that when it is warm and sunny, you can actually tell quite a difference. It is also why engines can feel breathless at high altitudes or why people get out of breath on top of a mountain, because there is less oxygen available as the air pressure is lower and the air molecules are further apart. Now if you want to go on about research I did do chemistry at university so I do know a bit about gases and how temperature affects them.

ozzyboydeano · Dec 23, 2016

Gottschalk said:
Yes they are hot, the main proponant of the the turbine spinning up is the fu'k off amount of exhaust gas being pushed through

what happens to a hot gas
does it expand
or does it shrink in volume
when the hot gasses expand this pushes the turbine
or do you still have your heart set on flow rate

the exhaust turbine and housing is designed for such a thing

if in doubt do some research
google turbo kinetic energy

Farmer Brown · Dec 23, 2016

ozzyboydeano said:
you guys are unreal

the turbo is not free energy like a windmill

those expanding gasses are they cold are hot

Ok, try this one, if you regard an engine as an air pump ( which some people do) are you going to tell me that a turbo wouldn't spin if you blew cold air through it?

No it isn't free energy and neither is a windmill. The kinetic energy of the exhaust gases is spinning the turbine on the hot side of the turbo to then compress air into the intake on the cold side of the turbo. Turbos are powered by kinetic energy not heat energy. Hot gas is less dense that cold gas as the molecules are whizzing about in an excited state but they are moving in all directions, not just in one. Turbos are powered by the pressure exerted on the blades in the turbine by the exhaust gases (burnt fuel and air) exploding out the engine. Hot gas in itself is not going to spin a turbo unless it doesn't have enough air pressure behind it to spin the turbine blades.

You do realise that wind turbines perform better in cold temperatures than hot temperatures as the air blowing on the blades ( at exactly the same wind speed) has more mass?

Defender 90 TD5 - Remapped. Power issues beyond 65mph

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