Dead Glow Plugs - help!

Don't want to complicate things but I don't think the wiring diag view of the IGN switch is right. My Series III (1980) definitely has a 'Glow' position on the switch - the plugs go live in that position. According to Haynes, the OE IGN switch has *5* connections, of which only 4 are used (prob BL just re-using a switch from another model)
I'd like to know from where you got the wiring diag showing the plugs wired in Parallel. My LR handbook - and Haynes - shows them (incorrectly) as wired in Series.
I have the Haynes Service & Repair Manual for Series IIA & III Diesel, 1958-1985 if anyone needs info from it
Chapgrill

I am as asure as I can be that SOME diesel series Landies have glow plugs wired in series. But beyond any doubt most are wired in parallel.

I wonder if it was only the very first 2.25 diesels that used series wired plugs?

Perhaps most of them were converted to parallel wiring later?

My manual is a Autodata Diesel Injection manual part 1 dated 1989.
The data in it is extremely reliable - so far !

CharlesY

I have now wired in the original type glow plugs. I had to disguard the rewiring for the parallel type plugs it was all a bit of a lash up wires just twisted together.
But I was lucky as I discovered that all the old wiring was there I just had to make sense of it using the wiring diagrams in the owners manual.
The glow plug light now comes on when the key is held against the spring and also continues to glow when the engine is cranked.
When the key is in either of these positions there is a reading of 8volts to the first plug dropping to 2 volts at the last, does anyone know if these readings are correct.
The engine has started a couple of times (lots of cranking needed) but cuts out so I now need to find out what else is not is wrong.

Chapgrill do you have an owners manual ?

crossa said:

I have now wired in the original type glow plugs. I had to discard the rewiring for the parallel type plugs it was all a bit of a lash up wires just twisted together.

Too much current to get away with twisted wires I'm afraid.

But I was lucky as I discovered that all the old wiring was there I just had to make sense of it using the wiring diagrams in the owners manual.
The glow plug light now comes on when the key is held against the spring and also continues to glow when the engine is cranked.
When the key is in either of these positions there is a reading of 8volts to the first plug dropping to 2 volts at the last, does anyone know if these readings are correct.

Brilliant! That is exactly correct.

The engine has started a couple of times (lots of cranking needed) but cuts out so I now need to find out what else is not is wrong.

FUEL PROBLEM .... the usual suspects .... air, filters, lift pump, self-bleeder blocked on filter head, that sort of thing.

Once you sort that it may need a lot less cranking.

Remember, NO THROTTLE when cold starting. A very very early 2.25 D injection pump might have a provision for a manual cold start - like a choke knob.

But now it's running!

Chapgrill do you have an owners manual ?

Click to expand...

CharlesY

My next step is to drain and refill the tank as I am not sure what is in there but looking in with a torch it is either brown (rust) or red (illegal) or a mix of both.

crossa said:

My next step is to drain and refill the tank as I am not sure what is in there but looking in with a torch it is either brown (rust) or red (illegal) or a mix of both.

Click to expand...

Get a long length of fuel hose, and a can of CLEAN fuel.
Take the present fuel inlet pipe off the lift pump.
Fit long hose instead and stick deep into fuel can.

CHANGE FUEL FILTER.

Flush lift pump WITHOUT shoving crap into new filter!

Fit new filter, bleed filter and injection pump.
Slacken all 4 injector pipes at the injectors.

Turn over till all four "spit" diesel, then tighten them.

Turn on starter till the exhaust smokes a bit (time to fill injectors inside)

GLOW GLOW GLOW, PRAY PRAY PRAY, and fire up!

CharlesY

CharlesY quote: "Remember, NO THROTTLE when cold starting"
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Are you SURE about this? My Series III handbook says (in the Diesel section, p17): "To start the engine, fully depress the accelerator while the starter motor is turning". If you're right and they're wrong, then maybe I've been flooding the poor old thing.
Yes I have the Series III owner's manual (Edition 4). It doesn't 100% match my LR's specs, but given the endless minor mods that the Series III seems to have undergone, it's not surprising! I got it off EBay
Chapgrill
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But now it's running!

Chapgrill do you have an owners manual ?

Chapgrill said:

Yes I have the Series III owner's manual (Edition 4). It doesn't 100% match my LR's specs, but given the endless minor mods that the Series III seems to have undergone, it's not surprising! I got it off EBay

Click to expand...

Thats where I got mine as well.

I have now drained the tank of the strange red/brown fuel, and filled it with £10 of Shell V power Diesel (V Power well there's always hope), I tried to start it but still no joy, later tomorrow I crack all the injector pipes to make sure clean fuel is getting through and will try and start it with the throttle open as Chapgrill suggested.

Chapgrill yours is now starting what helped you to get there.

If you are happy that the Manual matches the car, use their starting advice - to the deck on the GO pedal. It all depends which injection pump is fitted, and what (if anything) sets the cold start aids in the pump.

CharlesY

Hi Crossa
Well, I got my SIII going thru a mixture of logic & trial and error (more errors in the future I suspect) + big help from Charles Y
The LOGIC - I overhauled everything I COULD overhaul/replace: I had a major problem starting it and keeping it running till I discovered that all the seals in the fuel pump had perished due to lack of use - in the end I had to invest in a new fuel pump. Because of the pressurised fuel system ANY little problem is a big problem - the system is VERY unforgiving. So, apart from the pump, I drained the fuel tank, primed everything through, changed the fuel filter, emptied the sedimenter and only after all that were things OK on the FUEL side.
No probs with ignition, but I (with CharlesY) am still trying to work out anomalies with the glow-plugs. My (1980) SIII is connected in parallel while the book shows the plugs being in series; LOTS of complications.
One of the big problems with SIIIs is that BL were modding them almost on the assembly-line. The experts I asked to get me the replacement fuel-pump took 2 months to find the right one: to quote them: "In 1980 they were grabbing anything off the parts shelf, including DAF truck parts, and just sticking them on". So SIIIs of that era tend to be unpredictable and have 2 be approached from '1st principles' - the handbooks and Haynes ain't gospel! (See CharlesY's comments on starting procedure - when an expert like him says "If you're happy that the manual matches the car..." you can be sure that car mods and manual editions are unlikely to match!)
Chapgrill

Oh dear I might have a way to go yet then.

Tried starting mine today with the pedal to the metal after a while it will start but then die after a couple of seconds as if there was lack of fuel. While cranking there is white smoke getting blown out of the back which I assume is unburnt diesel.
So could it be possible that the diesel pump timing is wrong ?

crossa said:

Tried starting mine today with the pedal to the metal after a while it will start but then die after a couple of seconds as if there was lack of fuel. While cranking there is white smoke getting blown out of the back which I assume is unburnt diesel.
So could it be possible that the diesel pump timing is wrong ?

Click to expand...

Indirect injection engines are not good starter-uppers.
They need a good glow, full compression, and a fast starter motor to whirl them over smartish. Once on tick-over at 600 - 700 rpm they'll probably keep running IF the fuel supply keeps up.

The injection pump timing could be a little wrong, but if the engine runs and drives the car reasonably without clouds of smoke it can't be far out.

See to GLOW, fast starter, and compression.

CharlesY

In my experience (4 what it's worth) when an engine starts & then dies after a few secs, it's nearly always a fuel-starvation problem. You sure there is clean fuel not just in the tank but 'primed' throughout the system (via the hand lever on the fuel pump)? And is it getting through to the cylinders? If there is air in the system it needs to be bled at the fuel pump by undoing the 2 bleed points & hand-pumping - just cranking the engine won't solve it. I had exactly the same problem, which turned out to be leakage from the fuel pump & therefore starvation to the cylinders - everything else was OK. I always get white/blue smoke out of the back when starting - I assume this is normal for indirect-injection engines of this vintage
Chapgrill

Chapgrill said:

undoing the 2 bleed points & hand-pumping - just cranking the engine won't solve it.
Chapgrill

Click to expand...

Sorry I am still confused as to where these bleed screws are, I don't think they are not shown on the down loadable manuals.

It's 3 weeks since anyone posted on this thread. Can I hijack it?

My S3 hybrid has a 2.5 N/A which likes about 20 secs on the glowplugs before cranking. In cold weather I find an extra 10 secs helps.

Is this normal? If I need to service the engine which are the easy parts?

TP1 said:

It's 3 weeks since anyone posted on this thread. Can I hijack it?

My S3 hybrid has a 2.5 N/A which likes about 20 secs on the glowplugs before cranking. In cold weather I find an extra 10 secs helps.

Is this normal? If I need to service the engine which are the easy parts?

Click to expand...

That's par for the course.
The plugs are heating up the whole pre-combustion chamber. It takes a time.

CharlesY