Clutch or gearbox noise?

Had a new clutch, release bearing, dual mass flywheel and slave cylinder fitted to my 2004 TD5 Disco a few months ago as I was hearing the classic release bearing sound and the clutch was failing to disengage. Shortly after, I could hear the release bearing sound again and took it back to the garage for them to take another look. The symptoms were the same release bearing sound, only when operating the clutch pedal and only when cold – after a few miles the problem seems to go away. They brought in a specialist from the local Land Rover agent and between them decided that the noise was due to water contamination in the gear box and possible bearing damage and that it would need specialist transmission repair works to cure the bearing noise, but aside from the noise it would probably be fine for months to come.
So I lived with it for a few months more until I decided it was time to get something done. I called a transmission specialist and explained the symptoms. He said that from what I had told him it could not be a gearbox problem because a) noise from a gearbox would not diminish as it warms up, it would get worse and b) would be there all the time, not just when depressing the clutch. Trying to think of a way of dismissing the faulty gearbox theory I sat in the car and tested it again for myself and found that the noise was only when the clutch pedal was being operated and thus the clutch partially or fully disengaged, but I also noticed that it still made the sound with the clutch disengaged but the car in any gear and perfectly stationary, which to my mind means that the gearbox is locked solid, with no moving parts and therefore incapable of making any noise at all.
I took it back to the garage a couple of days ago, left it overnight so they could hear the sound in the morning when it was cold. I explained that it still makes the sound with the vehicle in gear and stationary, but they drained the gearbox again and showed me the swarf that they found attached to the magnetic drain plug and said that in their opinion it’s still the gearbox that’s at fault. They are happy to strip it all down again and look at the bearing, but if that is OK they would have to charge me for the work.
So now I’m in a tricky situation. I know that it still makes the noise with the gearbox effectively locked up, but how sure can I be that it is definitely NOT the gearbox. What else could be causing the noise? Could it be the toe bearing in the end of the crankshaft that is causing the grief and should they have replaced it while fitting the new clutch? Should I take the gamble and have them strip it all down again despite their opinion that it is a gearbox problem.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Probably always gonna find bit of swarf on the drain plug.i would be more inclined to listen to gearbox specialist.they dragging it out till clutch been in to long to put them at fault.oh and if they put the spigot bearing in dry that will be noisy.

Thanks cambridgecockney. I've booked it in for the garage to strip it down again next Thursday. He still thinks it's the gearbox and that I'll have to pay and tried to point out the their 9 month warranty is up (even though it's not even 8 months yet and their website says they give a 12 month warranty & I pointed out the problem within a month of them fitting the clutch). He did say that they replaced the spigot bearing, which means they replaced everything that I think can possibly make the noise. The parts were all Britpart - apparently the same as original Land Rover parts. I'm hoping that they will find faulty parts and that the garage was not at fault as I thought I had eventually found a good family run garage that I could trust. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

when in neutral engine running gear box still turns which includes input shaft ,lay shaft and all gears its just gears arent locked to mainshaft and so giving drive from rear of box,it wont be crankshaft , explain noise fully is it there whether clutch pedal is depressed or not, does it go if pedals fully depressed

Lan Drover said:

Thanks cambridgecockney. I've booked it in for the garage to strip it down again next Thursday. He still thinks it's the gearbox and that I'll have to pay and tried to point out the their 9 month warranty is up (even though it's not even 8 months yet and their website says they give a 12 month warranty & I pointed out the problem within a month of them fitting the clutch). He did say that they replaced the spigot bearing, which means they replaced everything that I think can possibly make the noise. The parts were all Britpart - apparently the same as original Land Rover parts. I'm hoping that they will find faulty parts and that the garage was not at fault as I thought I had eventually found a good family run garage that I could trust. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

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Britpart clutch oh dear dont think you have much to worry about.original clutches valeo or luk.i had a britpart clutch fitted,it was ****e.had to select reverse then start engine forward gears bit within 10mm of pedal leaving floor.workrd a bit better after slipping clutch from leics to wales with caravan on the back.noisy within weeks of fitting.

cambridgecockney - Sorry. I think I got it wrong. They were Valeo parts. I think I can now remember the garage guy showing me this stamped on the new clutch or flywheel and, if I remember rightly on the old parts taken out. I think I'm going to get them to replace the release bearing again and ensure the spigot bearing is properly greased. Can't see any way this shouldn't cure the problem.

I wouldnt ask them to do anything till its out.if you have a noisy release bearing they should replace anyway.as for spigot its about 3 quid.dont give them any get outs.

spigot noise can be diagnosed using clutch pedal

cambridgecockney - I will do as yo suggest & get them to replace the spigot bearing as well. That should leave nothing to chance.

jamesmartin - From the info I have given, would you put your money on the release bearing or the spigot? Would the spigot bearing make the same noise as the release bearing?

if noise goes when pedals fully pressed its spigot, not if it doesnt

Thanks for that jamesmartin. I doesn't go when the pedal is fully depressed, so that makes it the release bearing. I think I can also hear bearing rumble as well, as I push the clutch pedal down. I'm going take a video to show gear position, pedal position and noise, to take to the garage with me.

Just come back from the garage where my gearbox has been removed. He showed me the old release bearing and said he couldn't see anything wrong with it. Alongside it was a new bearing for comparison, though it was apparently the wrong one sent out from the Land Rover agent. The new bearing was silky smooth, turned freely, no friction and just the feel that it was nicely greased up inside. To me, the old bearing didn't feel anywhere near as good. Difficult to describe, but it felt like there was some initial friction when I started to turn it, like it was sticking and needed a little more effort to start it off. When it was turning, I couldn't feel anything which would necessarily suggest it was dry, but it didn't have the silky smooth feel of the new bearing. The guy explained that the new (incorrect) bearing, though a Land Rover part, had a ball race, whereas the old bearing has needle bearings. Should there be such a difference between the two? and is there a ball race option for the discovery 2?

I then took a look under the vehicle. Input shaft seems fine (why does it have to be so long?), with very little play. The end of the shaft was clean and dry as I assumed they had already cleaned it off with a rag, and not worn - new spigot bush fitted over it nice and snugly.

He then released the clutch assembly for me. Now I know they wouldn't have been able to get a rag to the spigot bush with the clutch in place, so I was a little surprised to put my finger inside the bush and find it clean and dry with not a hint of grease. From what I gather from previous posts, the spigot bush should be lightly greased.

The garage guy still seems to think that it is a gearbox fault and said that even with the vehicle in gear and the clutch disengaged, you can still get gear chatter, but I don't buy that as an explanation. I do know the difference between gearbox chatter (which I have never hear from mine) and the classic sound of a complaining release bearing.

As for fitting a new bearing, I'm still a little dubious. I've had the vehicle from new, so I know that the original bearing functioned perfectly well without any noise for at least 8 years. Are the new bearings prone to being noisy? or is there a better bearing that I could have fitted?

JamesMartin - Sorry, I could have sworn I replied to your 23rd August, 11.50 message - I was getting the sound equally with the vehicle in gear, handbrake on and clutch disengaged. The sound did not go away with the pedal fully down.

Lan Drover said:

Just come back from the garage where my gearbox has been removed. He showed me the old release bearing and said he couldn't see anything wrong with it. Alongside it was a new bearing for comparison, though it was apparently the wrong one sent out from the Land Rover agent. The new bearing was silky smooth, turned freely, no friction and just the feel that it was nicely greased up inside. To me, the old bearing didn't feel anywhere near as good. Difficult to describe, but it felt like there was some initial friction when I started to turn it, like it was sticking and needed a little more effort to start it off. When it was turning, I couldn't feel anything which would necessarily suggest it was dry, but it didn't have the silky smooth feel of the new bearing. The guy explained that the new (incorrect) bearing, though a Land Rover part, had a ball race, whereas the old bearing has needle bearings. Should there be such a difference between the two? and is there a ball race option for the discovery 2?

I then took a look under the vehicle. Input shaft seems fine (why does it have to be so long?), with very little play. The end of the shaft was clean and dry as I assumed they had already cleaned it off with a rag, and not worn - new spigot bush fitted over it nice and snugly.

He then released the clutch assembly for me. Now I know they wouldn't have been able to get a rag to the spigot bush with the clutch in place, so I was a little surprised to put my finger inside the bush and find it clean and dry with not a hint of grease. From what I gather from previous posts, the spigot bush should be lightly greased.

The garage guy still seems to think that it is a gearbox fault and said that even with the vehicle in gear and the clutch disengaged, you can still get gear chatter, but I don't buy that as an explanation. I do know the difference between gearbox chatter (which I have never hear from mine) and the classic sound of a complaining release bearing.

As for fitting a new bearing, I'm still a little dubious. I've had the vehicle from new, so I know that the original bearing functioned perfectly well without any noise for at least 8 years. Are the new bearings prone to being noisy? or is there a better bearing that I could have fitted?

JamesMartin - Sorry, I could have sworn I replied to your 23rd August, 11.50 message - I was getting the sound equally with the vehicle in gear, handbrake on and clutch disengaged. The sound did not go away with the pedal fully down.

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id be surprised if it was the wrong one there is only one release bearing of that type ,if it didnt feel silky smooth its a poor part, spigot bush been clean and dry is no issue they are from new ,the only time shaft turns in bush is when clutch is pressed

James - thanks for a very quick reply. So should the spigot bush be greased? It doesn't mention anything about it in my Haynes manual.

dry is fine

So, if the bush is left dry, what determines whether it makes a noise or not?

too tight a fit usually , i often have to ream the bush out a little to get a good fit for shaft

As I said earlier, the new bush fits nice and snugly over the input shaft, but there is just a small amount of play, so that seems ok. But I guess it could tighten up a little when tha bush is pressed home.

yes it does as its an interference fit , i have a spare input shaft to test after fitting ,the same bush is used in 5 bearing series 3s and on all diesels including tdis but its only td5 that the squealing issue occurs, though as i said before you can prove point as spigot bush noise only occurs at 1l/2 pedal not when pedals fully down

Unfortunately, we don't have a spare input shaft, but they and I do have aligning tools which might hopefully be the same diameter. Think I'm going to take my micrometer with me in the morning.