Classic Classic EAS Diagnostics Help Near Nottingham

Hi All,

Bottom Line: I need help with getting my EAS to work on my classic after reinstating much of the system. It has never worked in the time I've had the car but all the components seem to check out as far as I can tell. I'm located in Nottingham UK if anyone is willing to help me in person. Any guidance on here is also appreciated.

Picture of Puppy in car just because she's cute. Not relevant to issue...



Background:

I'm nearly at the end of getting my Vogue LSE back on the road after about 4 years sorting it out. One of the jobs I've done is to reinstall all the missing bits of EAS. Just need to get the system working and bleed the brakes and I think I'm ready for the MOT Test. When I got the car most of the EAS was present but the bag had been replaced with coils and the sensors removed. I've replaced the bags and sensors, tested the wiring harness and pneumatic connections, rebuilt the pump and the valve block. I have experience with EAS on mom's P38 which I have been maintaining for several years.

When I power on the ignition, with the loopback connector plugged into the EAS diagnostics port or with the computer connected I get both up and down lights on solid. This never changes. I'm sure before I pulled the wiring looms that they used to flash for 30 seconds after the engine was started indicating a fault but they don't seem to now.

Issue:

I'm having a nightmare trying to get the EAS to talk to my computer. I never have any trouble with talking to mom's P38 using the same laptop and EAS Unlock Suite. I now have two cables for the classic - one I made myself and one from eBay. Both behave the same. If I loop back the Tx and Rx lines I get matching data so I know that both are transmitting and receiving ok. This is supported by my bought cable behaving the same as my home made one. Both cables build on FTDI USB-Serial emulators and I have the correct software and drivers installed for those cables. I also have a RoverGauge 14CUX diagnostic cable built on the same USB-Serial emulator which works correctly.

When I hit initialise with the cable connected the timer relay clicks during the initialisation process as I am used to from the P38 so I believe the the transistor part of the cables is working also. When I try to initialise communications with EAS Unlock Suite, I get the normal Tx 0 0 0 0 1 FF ... but only PP and occasionally a single 0 in the Rx.

I've tried two ECUs, one of which was bought as a good used unit from eBay and both behave the same.

Cheers for reading the wall of text! Hope someone can help.

Rich

So I've managed to determine that I have a bad driver pack for starters. Don't think it explains my issues above but it's not going to work. Can anyone think of a reason why the P38 version won't work? It has wiring in it for the pressure sensor, but that's on pins that aren't used on the classic and all the other pins are wired the same. The P38 one is much more readily available used...

Rich

RAW111111 said:

So I've managed to determine that I have a bad driver pack for starters. Don't think it explains my issues above but it's not going to work. Can anyone think of a reason why the P38 version won't work? It has wiring in it for the pressure sensor, but that's on pins that aren't used on the classic and all the other pins are wired the same. The P38 one is much more readily available used...

Rich

Click to expand...

Your Classic driver pack may be repairable, the common failure on the P38 driver pack is an electrolytic which if you can solder is easy to replace once the potting has been dug out. If the potting is the same as used on the P38, cracking and discolouration of the potting at the connector end of the of the pack is an indication that the electrolytic has failed.

Datatek said:

Your Classic driver pack may be repairable, the common failure on the P38 driver pack is an electrolytic which if you can solder is easy to replace once the potting has been dug out. If the potting is the same as used on the P38, cracking and discolouration of the potting at the connector end of the of the pack is an indication that the electrolytic has failed.

Click to expand...

Hi Datatek,

Should have tagged you on this one I suppose! I did wonder if there may be a way to repair it. I have 5 of 6 solenoids which won’t trigger when I put power to them from the ECU connector. Continuity to the driver pack connector from the ECU connector is good.

The potting on my driver pack is really hard. I seem to recall the potting on the p38 one that I’ve had fail before was rubbery? I’m not sure how I could get the potting out. Have you any suggestions?

I have arranged to collect a full p38 valve block and driver pack (which I hope is functional) and am going to try that driver and solenoids. For £20 and collecting tomorrow it seems worth a try. The connections to the pressure switch I’ll just leave disconnected to try and if it works I’ll unpin them at the driver pack connector. I’ll have to use the solenoid set too since they’re hard wired to the driver pack on my car without a further connector as on p38s.

if I can fix my driver pack that would be very helpful.

Rich

Not done one of yours but to remove potting I use a Dremel with the flexible extension and the small ball tip cutting bits.

Using the flexible extension you can hold it like a pen & it gives much finer control.

Last thing I did was the TPS on my 3.5EFi Classic as two of the wires had broken. I used a Dremel cutting disc to cut the top off - you only need to cut round the periphery - and then the same disc & the cutting bits to expose enough wire to solder. Re-potted with epoxy.

I bought one of the accessory kits (sanding, polishing, engraving burrs & drilling) that pop up in Lidl from time to time & that's got a lot of very useful bits & pieces.

Ratae said:

Not done one of yours but to remove potting I use a Dremel with the flexible extension and the small ball tip cutting bits.

Using the flexible extension you can hold it like a pen & it gives much finer control.

Last thing I did was the TPS on my 3.5EFi Classic as two of the wires had broken. I used a Dremel cutting disc to cut the top off - you only need to cut round the periphery - and then the same disc & the cutting bits to expose enough wire to solder. Re-potted with epoxy.

I bought one of the accessory kits (sanding, polishing, engraving burrs & drilling) that pop up in Lidl from time to time & that's got a lot of very useful bits & pieces.

Click to expand...

that’s great advice. I don’t have a Dremmel but I have an air die grinder that I could try. I guess the Dremmel would be a bit more delicate but I’ll see how I get on. Thanks.

Rich

Thing with the Dremel (and I presume the various copies of it) is that you can turn the speed right down so reducing the risk of going just that bit too far.

It's one of those tools that once bought you surprise yourself at just how often you use it.
Bought it for chasing cracks in gelcoat out of GRP panels on caravans but since then it's been used for all manner of stuff including cutting out rusty steel on the Range Rover where a full size grinder won't fit - the flexi with the small fibreglass reinforced cutting discs was perfect & I was surprised at just how fast they cut. I used the Dremel 426 type but bought the copies which are cheap as chips off ebay & they're fine.

Try the airtool on something that you don't mind trashing before going onto the driver pack!

RAW111111 said:

Hi Datatek,

Should have tagged you on this one I suppose! I did wonder if there may be a way to repair it. I have 5 of 6 solenoids which won’t trigger when I put power to them from the ECU connector. Continuity to the driver pack connector from the ECU connector is good.

The potting on my driver pack is really hard. I seem to recall the potting on the p38 one that I’ve had fail before was rubbery? I’m not sure how I could get the potting out. Have you any suggestions?

I have arranged to collect a full p38 valve block and driver pack (which I hope is functional) and am going to try that driver and solenoids. For £20 and collecting tomorrow it seems worth a try. The connections to the pressure switch I’ll just leave disconnected to try and if it works I’ll unpin them at the driver pack connector. I’ll have to use the solenoid set too since they’re hard wired to the driver pack on my car without a further connector as on p38s.

if I can fix my driver pack that would be very helpful.

Rich

Click to expand...

Hard potting and individual solenoids not working is not good news. With temperature changes, hard potting often causes broken wires and even components, maybe why they changed to soft potting compound on the P38. I have never seen the Classic driver pack.

So the driver pack swap worked. More of a pain than expected as the physical installation is a fair bit different…




First is a p38 driver pack mocked up on the classic valve block. Second is the classic driver pack after removal. The classic one mounts with two cap screws that are under the potting. The p38 one mounts via a pair of brackets set into the potting. On the classic one the wires come through grooves in the edge of the metal casing, where on the p38 they come through the surface of the potting and there are intermediate plugs between the driver pack and the solenoids. Also, on the classic the driver pack mounts metal side toward the valve block between two raised sections on the valve block body which contain the threaded holes by which the valve block mounts to the case. On the p38 the driver pack mounts potting towards the valve block.

In the first photo above you can see that one of the brackets on the p38 driver pack happens to line up nicely with the mounting holes on the classic valve block. The other one I redrilled to align with the other bolt holes. There’s not enough bracket there to make it perfect but it works as a proof of concept. See the new holes to the left of the socket below…



I swapped all the solenoids off the p38 valve block onto my classic one so I had the set that had plugs on them. Then cut some tube I had lying around to make spacers to space the entire valve block forward in the case to give space for the driver pack to be mounted the p38 way around rather than in the recess on the back of the valve block…



I had to use longer bolts to be able to do this, but it sort of works. Next issue was that the desiccant can didn’t clear the front of the valve block in its new location, so I just turned it back to front in the case. I surmised that it already flows air both directions depending on whether the compressor is running or the exhaust is open so reversing the flow shouldn’t make a difference I think. Only remaining change was to unpin the two wires for the pressure sensor from the p38 driver pack as the classic doesn’t use these two pins and instead has the pressure switch located the other side of the car on the air tank.

Crammed it all together and back under the car and gave it a test. Still no comms with the ECU and no life in the designed mode, but I can manually operate all the solenoids and have managed to inflate the suspension ok so at least I know half the system works now.

Total cost of fix - £20 rather than £230 for a classic driver pack that’s on back order anyway. Just need to sort the computer side of things now. I think I might look at the delay timer relay next…

Rich

Datatek said:

Hard potting and individual solenoids not working is not good news. With temperature changes, hard potting often causes broken wires and even components, maybe why they changed to soft potting compound on the P38. I have never seen the Classic driver pack.

Click to expand...

I think it might have suffered differently due to the more exposed nature in the classic under the floor, or perhaps that lead to different materials to be chosen. Seeing as the p38 one seems to work I think I’ll ignore the issue. Perhaps it would be interesting to dig the potting out just to see what went wrong though.

Rich

Ratae said:

Thing with the Dremel (and I presume the various copies of it) is that you can turn the speed right down so reducing the risk of going just that bit too far.

It's one of those tools that once bought you surprise yourself at just how often you use it.
Bought it for chasing cracks in gelcoat out of GRP panels on caravans but since then it's been used for all manner of stuff including cutting out rusty steel on the Range Rover where a full size grinder won't fit - the flexi with the small fibreglass reinforced cutting discs was perfect & I was surprised at just how fast they cut. I used the Dremel 426 type but bought the copies which are cheap as chips off ebay & they're fine.

Try the airtool on something that you don't mind trashing before going onto the driver pack!

Click to expand...

I can definitely see that the Dremmel might be easier for this kind of precision work. I do actually have someone in the family that I might try borrowing one off. He owes me a favour as I put a new clutch and flywheel in his BMW two weeks ago.

Rich

RAW111111 said:

Hi All,

Bottom Line: I need help with getting my EAS to work on my classic after reinstating much of the system. It has never worked in the time I've had the car but all the components seem to check out as far as I can tell. I'm located in Nottingham UK if anyone is willing to help me in person. Any guidance on here is also appreciated.

Picture of Puppy in car just because she's cute. Not relevant to issue...

View attachment 275500

Background:

I'm nearly at the end of getting my Vogue LSE back on the road after about 4 years sorting it out. One of the jobs I've done is to reinstall all the missing bits of EAS. Just need to get the system working and bleed the brakes and I think I'm ready for the MOT Test. When I got the car most of the EAS was present but the bag had been replaced with coils and the sensors removed. I've replaced the bags and sensors, tested the wiring harness and pneumatic connections, rebuilt the pump and the valve block. I have experience with EAS on mom's P38 which I have been maintaining for several years.

When I power on the ignition, with the loopback connector plugged into the EAS diagnostics port or with the computer connected I get both up and down lights on solid. This never changes. I'm sure before I pulled the wiring looms that they used to flash for 30 seconds after the engine was started indicating a fault but they don't seem to now.

Issue:

I'm having a nightmare trying to get the EAS to talk to my computer. I never have any trouble with talking to mom's P38 using the same laptop and EAS Unlock Suite. I now have two cables for the classic - one I made myself and one from eBay. Both behave the same. If I loop back the Tx and Rx lines I get matching data so I know that both are transmitting and receiving ok. This is supported by my bought cable behaving the same as my home made one. Both cables build on FTDI USB-Serial emulators and I have the correct software and drivers installed for those cables. I also have a RoverGauge 14CUX diagnostic cable built on the same USB-Serial emulator which works correctly.

When I hit initialise with the cable connected the timer relay clicks during the initialisation process as I am used to from the P38 so I believe the the transistor part of the cables is working also. When I try to initialise communications with EAS Unlock Suite, I get the normal Tx 0 0 0 0 1 FF ... but only PP and occasionally a single 0 in the Rx.

I've tried two ECUs, one of which was bought as a good used unit from eBay and both behave the same.

Cheers for reading the wall of text! Hope someone can help.

Rich

Click to expand...

We should start a thread. Pictures of cute dogs in the back of Range Rovers. Here’s mine.

Ok, here is mine.

full size…

Salisbury Nick said:

View attachment 275782 full size…

Click to expand...

Looks very much at home Less of a monster than mine I’m sure!

Rich

RAW111111 said:

Looks very much at home Less of a monster than mine I’m sure!

Rich

Click to expand...

Nope. She’s a psychopath. Stole a pair of pliers out of my hand while I was distracted the other day.

When they convert the P38 to coild they put a bypass loom in. Does the Classic have something similar?

Also, p38 has delay relay. If that is swapped for normal one it also stops communications to ECU. Anything like that on the Classic?

Other person who plays with EAS is @pwood999

I see you have gone North. Think you were in Bristol last time we spoke. Oddly enough I am up near Derby on Sunday.

Grrrrrr said:

I see you have gone North. Think you were in Bristol last time we spoke. Oddly enough I am up near Derby on Sunday.

Click to expand...

Hi Grrr. Long time without speaking. Hope you’re doing well. We moved back north about a year ago to be closer to family as I’m working from home full time.

I don’t think I have a bypass loom of any sort fitted. The EAS wiring all seems to be as ok the diagrams so far as I can tell. The delay relay I’m suspicious of. It seems to click on and off as I would expect but I’m not certain it’s working right. More diagnostics needed. I can’t just swap it for a known good one as they’re different from the p38 one and seem to be hard to find.

Rich

Never looked at the bypass stuff because I sorted both P38 EAS out, and didn't need it. Plenty of posts on rr.net about it though.