P38A Checking modulation with diagnostics

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wammers said:
He asked a question and did not like the answer, that is what this is all about. Never the less his problem is obvious, no need to do laughable charts to prove it. I would be worried if my P38 was idling at 99.84 degrees C when the stat opens for circulation at 80 C. He refuses to accept that his actions have caused his problem. Being a bit silly really.
Click to expand...
You just cannot read can you, I have never said the car idles at 99.84 degrees, that was part of a test to demonstrate the variation in modulation with temperature, something you clearly do not understand..The car does not have a problem, you do.
 
wammers said:
The only thing that bothers me is him giving out incorrect info that others who are less capable and understanding may take as gospel. If he wants to change his method of cooling that is up to him. But he and any others who may wish to fit his mod and remove the viscous and shroud must be told the consequence of that action. The viscous fan is fitted for a reason it is not there just to look pretty. With a properly working viscous fitted the temp at idle would get nowhere near 99.84 degrees. Standard system pressure at idle varies between 5 and 7 PSI even if the engine has been idling all day. So the temp and system pressure are stable. The cap should be able to be removed and left off at idle with no boiling over. 99.84 is .16 short of boiling point that temp should never be reached at idle. To get an accurate modulation reading the temp must be stable at idle. Without the viscous fan that is not possible.
Click to expand...
You say the temperature must be stable at idle, how do you know that from the gauge that you have been promoting as the way. You have obviously missed the fact that at at 85C the modulation is 9%; at 90C it's 40%; and at normal running temperature 95C it's 54%.
So I'll say again, when checking the modulation with diagnostics after setting static, attention needs to be paid to coolant temperature. You have never done it so you do not know.
I can create a stable temperature at any temperature I choose and it does not need the viscous fan to do it.
 
Last edited:
Datatek said:
You just cannot reads can you, I have never said the car idles at 99.84 degrees, that was part of a test to demonstrate the variation in modulation with temperature, something you clearly do not understand..The car does not have a problem, you do.
Click to expand...

Oh dear me, your figures show a temp of 99.84 degrees so you have said it reaches that temp. For christ sake listen and learn and stop trying to fight reality. Of course the modulation changes with temp, but at lower temps it is an irrelevance as the ECU is running cold engine maps, restricting power output until working temps are achieved. Your readouts mean nothing unless you include set points and actuals and even then they will change as things progress as you have no way of creating a stable temperature.
 
Datatek said:
You say the temperature must be stable at idle, how do you know that from the gauge that you have been promoting as the way. You have obviously missed the fact that at at 85C the modulation is 9%; at 90C it's 40%; and at normal running temperature 95C it's 54%.
So I'll say again, when checking the modulation with diagnostics after setting static, attention needs to be paid to coolant temperature. You have never done it so you do not know.
I can create a stable temperature at any temperature I choose and it does not need the viscous fan to do it.
Click to expand...

Keith you really cannot be that thick i am not having it. You carry on you obviously do not have a bloody clue.
 
wammers said:
Keith you really cannot be that thick i am not having it. You carry on you obviously do not have a bloody clue.
Click to expand...
It seems you really don't understand what I'm talking about so there is no point in trying to explain.


I suspect that in reallity you have far less hands on experience on the P38 that you claim,

Going back to when I first got my P38, I asked a question on LZ about the function of the Viscous coupling. Your answer was wide of the mark, when I had the temerity to suggest you were wrong, you went off on a rant that I have come to know is your standard response when you don't know something. You didn't shut up until I found and posted a large drawing of the transfer box internals. No doubt you will have conveniently forgotton that. The same thing happened with the insertion collers on the air lines, the operation of the valve block solenoids etc etc. I don't know much, but I do know when people are talking nonsense.

You make statements that show a lack of detain knowledge and go off at a tangent if questioned, finally resorting to childish insults, a sure sign of someone who does not know the answers.


Recently you claimed to have had and removed electric cooling on your P38, no doubt if true it was an after market mod. I have been posting about the aircon fans mod for a long time, odd that it took you 6 years to suddenly announce your car had electric cooling at one point, pure fantasy I suspect.


Then we have your recent claims about EKA.. I have had a Faultmate for 10 years, a year or so before BBS bought out Nanocom, in all that time I have only known one P38 (and I know of several) that needed diagnostics due to non acceptance of EKA, yet you, a man who by your own admission is partially disabled and needs powerful painkillers, claim to have sorted many. Were they trailered to your house? I can't imagine you driving around the country Nanocom in hand to sort the problem, more fantasy.

Quote:- Have done it often. You can disable EKA and immobilisation with a Nanocom in BECM diagnostic mode when engine immobilised is messaged, which would normally need EKA input to clear.. But seeing as you don't have a Nanocom i don't know how you can comment on what it does or does not do.


You are a source of useful information, much of it however seems to be cut and paste rather than information gained from hands on experience. You are a man with time on your hands, so plenty of opportunity to read the manual and search the internet for the answers that you present as your own information and which you are never able to back up when questioned.


I may have missed it, but I have never seen one photo of the Wammers garage or the construction of the little non EASA aircraft you claim to have built. Ever have an NPPL or PPL? The amount of knowledge you claim on diesel engines conflicts with the fact that diesels in cars became popular only recently, maybe the Wammers garage worked on trucks.



Your beligerant attitude makes Landyzone an unpleasant place to be, I'm not alone in thinking that, you can get on with pretending to be Mr know all, I'm out of it.



Anyone wanting to contact me can PM me, if you want a reply, include an email address.
 
Datatek said:
It seems you really don't understand what I'm talking about so there is no point in trying to explain.


I suspect that in reallity you have far less hands on experience on the P38 that you claim,

Going back to when I first got my P38, I asked a question on LZ about the function of the Viscous coupling. Your answer was wide of the mark, when I had the temerity to suggest you were wrong, you went off on a rant that I have come to know is your standard response when you don't know something. You didn't shut up until I found and posted a large drawing of the transfer box internals. No doubt you will have conveniently forgotton that. The same thing happened with the insertion collers on the air lines, the operation of the valve block solenoids etc etc. I don't know much, but I do know when people are talking nonsense.

You make statements that show a lack of detain knowledge and go off at a tangent if questioned, finally resorting to childish insults, a sure sign of someone who does not know the answers.


Recently you claimed to have had and removed electric cooling on your P38, no doubt if true it was an after market mod. I have been posting about the aircon fans mod for a long time, odd that it took you 6 years to suddenly announce your car had electric cooling at one point, pure fantasy I suspect.


Then we have your recent claims about EKA.. I have had a Faultmate for 10 years, a year or so before BBS bought out Nanocom, in all that time I have only known one P38 (and I know of several) that needed diagnostics due to non acceptance of EKA, yet you, a man who by your own admission is partially disabled and needs powerful painkillers, claim to have sorted many. Were they trailered to your house? I can't imagine you driving around the country Nanocom in hand to sort the problem, more fantasy.

Quote:- Have done it often. You can disable EKA and immobilisation with a Nanocom in BECM diagnostic mode when engine immobilised is messaged, which would normally need EKA input to clear.. But seeing as you don't have a Nanocom i don't know how you can comment on what it does or does not do.


You are a source of useful information, much of it however seems to be cut and paste rather than information gained from hands on experience. You are a man with time on your hands, so plenty of opportunity to read the manual and search the internet for the answers that you present as your own information and which you are never able to back up when questioned.


I may have missed it, but I have never seen one photo of the Wammers garage or the construction of the little non EASA aircraft you claim to have built. Ever have an NPPL or PPL? The amount of knowledge you claim on diesel engines conflicts with the fact that diesels in cars became popular only recently, maybe the Wammers garage worked on trucks.



Your beligerant attitude makes Landyzone an unpleasant place to be, I'm not alone in thinking that, you can get on with pretending to be Mr know all, I'm out of it.



Anyone wanting to contact me can PM me, if you want a reply, include an email address.
Click to expand...

Your attitude makes LZ a dangerous place to be if anyone takes notice of your nonsense. Beware of happy amateurs people.
 
OK, I've driven the car this evening and when I got back I took some more traces.

My coolant temperature was pretty much rock solid at 91 degrees centigrade (needle at 12 o'clock) and modulation at 78% (and I know my chains are tired). Not sure if that helps or not?
 
Surely it depends on the wear inside the mota anorl..

At the risk of being beaten, what are ya'll trying to ascertain?
 
Grrrrrr said:
Variation of modulation and engine coolant temperature (from diagnostics) while temperature needle at 12 o'clock and stable at idle.
Click to expand...

With a properly functioning viscous fan fitted there is no variation of modulation or temp at a settled idle.
 
Datatek said:
It seems you really don't understand what I'm talking about so there is no point in trying to explain.


I suspect that in reallity you have far less hands on experience on the P38 that you claim,

Going back to when I first got my P38, I asked a question on LZ about the function of the Viscous coupling. Your answer was wide of the mark, when I had the temerity to suggest you were wrong, you went off on a rant that I have come to know is your standard response when you don't know something. You didn't shut up until I found and posted a large drawing of the transfer box internals. No doubt you will have conveniently forgotton that. The same thing happened with the insertion collers on the air lines, the operation of the valve block solenoids etc etc. I don't know much, but I do know when people are talking nonsense.

You make statements that show a lack of detain knowledge and go off at a tangent if questioned, finally resorting to childish insults, a sure sign of someone who does not know the answers.


Recently you claimed to have had and removed electric cooling on your P38, no doubt if true it was an after market mod. I have been posting about the aircon fans mod for a long time, odd that it took you 6 years to suddenly announce your car had electric cooling at one point, pure fantasy I suspect.


Then we have your recent claims about EKA.. I have had a Faultmate for 10 years, a year or so before BBS bought out Nanocom, in all that time I have only known one P38 (and I know of several) that needed diagnostics due to non acceptance of EKA, yet you, a man who by your own admission is partially disabled and needs powerful painkillers, claim to have sorted many. Were they trailered to your house? I can't imagine you driving around the country Nanocom in hand to sort the problem, more fantasy.

Quote:- Have done it often. You can disable EKA and immobilisation with a Nanocom in BECM diagnostic mode when engine immobilised is messaged, which would normally need EKA input to clear.. But seeing as you don't have a Nanocom i don't know how you can comment on what it does or does not do.


You are a source of useful information, much of it however seems to be cut and paste rather than information gained from hands on experience. You are a man with time on your hands, so plenty of opportunity to read the manual and search the internet for the answers that you present as your own information and which you are never able to back up when questioned.


I may have missed it, but I have never seen one photo of the Wammers garage or the construction of the little non EASA aircraft you claim to have built. Ever have an NPPL or PPL? The amount of knowledge you claim on diesel engines conflicts with the fact that diesels in cars became popular only recently, maybe the Wammers garage worked on trucks.



Your beligerant attitude makes Landyzone an unpleasant place to be, I'm not alone in thinking that, you can get on with pretending to be Mr know all, I'm out of it.



Anyone wanting to contact me can PM me, if you want a reply, include an email address.
Click to expand...

Jealousy is a terrible thing Keith.
 
Not that I have diesel, but there's always room for someone to generate data to back a hypothesis. Then the rest of us can sit back in our armchairs and critique the methodology. So, tnx DT.
The only comment I have is that there may be a lag between a particular temperature being reached and the modulation ie "dynamically" observing the modulation reading may not be truly accurate. Either way - you've still proved the basic hypothesis from post #1.
Re the 105 upper limit.... my (V8) cooling system was playing up a year or so ago - and the gauge wd go to 1 min past 12 in high street summer traffic (no ram air, and vicous fan cdn't compensate)) - after which I pulled out the nano to get c.105 degrees on the ECT - and then sitting still a few mins more outside my house (105+) gave me the red light. I saw this a couple of times - but didn't leave it in that state for long, for obvious reasons. Reason for this was a partially blocked rad (post mortem performed) and it behaves well now (including when I recorded 37 degrees external a couple of days ago).
 
romanrob said:
Not that I have diesel, but there's always room for someone to generate data to back a hypothesis. Then the rest of us can sit back in our armchairs and critique the methodology. So, tnx DT.
The only comment I have is that there may be a lag between a particular temperature being reached and the modulation ie "dynamically" observing the modulation reading may not be truly accurate. Either way - you've still proved the basic hypothesis from post #1.
Re the 105 upper limit.... my (V8) cooling system was playing up a year or so ago - and the gauge wd go to 1 min past 12 in high street summer traffic (no ram air, and vicous fan cdn't compensate)) - after which I pulled out the nano to get c.105 degrees on the ECT - and then sitting still a few mins more outside my house (105+) gave me the red light. I saw this a couple of times - but didn't leave it in that state for long, for obvious reasons. Reason for this was a partially blocked rad (post mortem performed) and it behaves well now (including when I recorded 37 degrees external a couple of days ago).
Click to expand...
The working temp of the petrol engine is around 10 degrees higher than the diesel. The diesel stat opens at 80 degrees the petrol at 90 degrees. The petrol has an overtemp sensor which brings on the aircan fans at around 105 degrees to assist cooling, diesels after 1999 have the same system. The viscous fan controls idle temp on both versions without a viscous there is no idle temp control. So trying to check modulation on the diesel not fitted with a viscous fan is nothing but guess work at best.
 
Tnx - my t/ stat opens early 80s, and I've still yet to see my aircon fans run in anger (even scraping 110 degrees ECT). The theory of having them is nice, but they're there to assist the air con. Anyway - my point was not to compare running temps of petrol and diesel - just to reinforce what a wide window there is for "mid range" on the temperature gauge in the dash, hence being able to looking at the actual temp feed going back to ECM/ EDC, for whatever purpose, is more relevant than just relying on the gauge.
 
romanrob said:
Tnx - my t/ stat opens early 80s, and I've still yet to see my aircon fans run in anger (even scraping 110 degrees ECT). The theory of having them is nice, but they're there to assist the air con. Anyway - my point was not to compare running temps of petrol and diesel - just to reinforce what a wide window there is for "mid range" on the temperature gauge in the dash, hence being able to looking at the actual temp feed going back to ECM/ EDC, for whatever purpose, is more relevant than just relying on the gauge.
Click to expand...

It'd be nice to get more data, both with and without the viscous. 2 data points is hard to draw any conclusions from when they're different.
 
romanrob said:
Tnx - my t/ stat opens early 80s, and I've still yet to see my aircon fans run in anger (even scraping 110 degrees ECT). The theory of having them is nice, but they're there to assist the air con. Anyway - my point was not to compare running temps of petrol and diesel - just to reinforce what a wide window there is for "mid range" on the temperature gauge in the dash, hence being able to looking at the actual temp feed going back to ECM/ EDC, for whatever purpose, is more relevant than just relying on the gauge.
Click to expand...

Diesel stat opens at 80 C, petrol before 1999 88C, later ones 85 +- 5C. So the petrol runs at a slightly higher temp than the diesel. But it is of no matter because the petrol does not use fuel pressure modulation for timing correction purposes. What does amaze me is that many do not know or understand how or when a viscous fan works. It is there to control the engine temp at lower RPMs with variable rates of air flow as required. Without one the stable temp at idle needed for correct modulation readings is not possible.
 
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