Cheapish 4x4

My parents have just purchased a property in the French alps, and we
are looking to purchase a car which will spend most of its life down
there on the snow bound roads of the Alps (inc. Switzerland).

We dont want to spend any more than say £3,000 (less if we can), and
want something reliable and fun to drive (with at least 130bhp for the
summer months). I've never owned a 4x4 before, and would prefer
something like a saloon rather than the traditional off-road 4x4's.

All my family are owners of Volvo T-5's, but the AWD version of the T5
didn't come along til the V70, which is out of our price range. The
850 AWD is also slightly pricey for it's age!

Whatever we get will be fitted with winter tyres etc

We estimate it'll do between 6,000 and 10,000 miles per year, but
spending the majority of its life in a heated garage. Not worried
about fuel consumption of insurance costs.

Some ideas off the top of my head include the Mondeo 2.0 Si 4x4 and
certain Audi Quattro models. Expansion of this list with merits of
certain cars would be a benifit!

The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!

Mark Jordan <[email protected]> wrote:

> My parents have just purchased a property in the French alps, and we
> are looking to purchase a car which will spend most of its life down
> there on the snow bound roads of the Alps (inc. Switzerland).
>
> We dont want to spend any more than say £3,000 (less if we can), and
> want something reliable and fun to drive (with at least 130bhp for the
> summer months). I've never owned a 4x4 before, and would prefer
> something like a saloon rather than the traditional off-road 4x4's.
>
> All my family are owners of Volvo T-5's, but the AWD version of the T5
> didn't come along til the V70, which is out of our price range. The
> 850 AWD is also slightly pricey for it's age!
>
> Whatever we get will be fitted with winter tyres etc
>
> We estimate it'll do between 6,000 and 10,000 miles per year, but
> spending the majority of its life in a heated garage. Not worried
> about fuel consumption of insurance costs.
>
> Some ideas off the top of my head include the Mondeo 2.0 Si 4x4 and
> certain Audi Quattro models. Expansion of this list with merits of
> certain cars would be a benifit!
>
> The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
> France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!

Not entirely convinced by the need for 4wd, as in a lot of situations
FWD is just as useful - you don't see many Swedes driving 4wd cars.

However, if it's being driven 99% of the time in France / Switzerland,
then I'd definitely be looking for a left-hooker.
--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300
VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - VW Passat 1.8T 20V SE - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

> The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
> France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!
>
Why?

Why do you need a 4wd, or do you fancy driving a 4wd ? For the former;
identify the use and buy accordingly, for the latter go for a Jap tart car
which will probably be more reliable and cost less to run than a genuine 4wd
off-roader.

Why 130 bhp ? for real use look at the torque output and the rev range the
power is developed at .

John H

On 13 Mar 2005 09:41:50 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Jordan) wrote:

>Some ideas off the top of my head include the Mondeo 2.0 Si 4x4 and
>certain Audi Quattro models. Expansion of this list with merits of
>certain cars would be a benifit!

I'd look at the Subaru Imprezza and Subaru Forester. The Imprezza
comes in saloon and 5 door hatch back. The Forester benefits from
increased ground clearance, which might be useful in deep snow, but
might be a bit too traditional 4x4 for you.

Even the standard non-turbo versions of both meet your power
requirements, the turbo ones are even more fun...
--
Andy Norman [email protected]
http://www.norman.cx/
Replace the fish with my first name to reply

Mark Jordan <[email protected]> wrote:

> My parents have just purchased a property in the French alps, and we
> are looking to purchase a car which will spend most of its life down
> there on the snow bound roads of the Alps (inc. Switzerland).
>
> We dont want to spend any more than say £3,000 (less if we can),

Them IMO you'll be stuffed. Because you're not going to get what you ask
for within the budget. I used to work in Switzerland and I had both a
Golf GTi and a Golf Synchro while I was there. As others have said, the
4x4 didn't actually offer much benefit over the FWD car, you may be
better off simply getting some lessons on driving on ice and snow.

A 4WD car is not a license to drive flat out on snow covered roads. Many
people who have never driven one seem to assume that a 4x4 has some
magic in it that permits higher speeds than possible with a 2x4. Not so,
so if that was the thinking behind your choice, think again.

Also many saloon bodied 4x4s don't have differential locks, indeed very
few cheap 4x4s of any type come equipped with diff locks although some
may have such a primitive 4x4 arrangement that it doesn't have a centre
diff and hence is effectively diff locked when in 4x4.

That of itself isn't necessarily a good thing either. Something like a
Series III Land Rover is actually harder to drive on snow than you would
think. It's more or less permanently in a skid on snow, with one wheel
somewhere or other losing traction. With practice they're easy to drive
on snow but it takes practice and the sensation at first is
disconcerting. Vehicles like the Vitara and Frontera feel much the same
in snow.

Modern 4x4s with selectable electronic gubbins give a much better
experience but fall well outside your budget.

> and want something reliable and fun to drive (with at least 130bhp for the
> summer months). I've never owned a 4x4 before, and would prefer something
> like a saloon rather than the traditional off-road 4x4's.

Lower BHP would actually help in snow.

> All my family are owners of Volvo T-5's, but the AWD version of the T5
> didn't come along til the V70, which is out of our price range. The
> 850 AWD is also slightly pricey for it's age!
>
> Whatever we get will be fitted with winter tyres etc

In winter, but you'll need two sets of wheels and summer tyres as well.
And of course somewhere to store them and where will you keep them? In
England or in France? Because you can guarantee that wherever you keep
them will be the wrong place.

> We estimate it'll do between 6,000 and 10,000 miles per year, but
> spending the majority of its life in a heated garage. Not worried
> about fuel consumption of insurance costs.

Chevvy Blazer or Ford Explorer then. You'll get a decent one of either
within your budget.

> Some ideas off the top of my head include the Mondeo 2.0 Si 4x4 and
> certain Audi Quattro models. Expansion of this list with merits of
> certain cars would be a benifit!

And Audi Quattro at that price will IMO be trouble. I can't see you
gettign a good 4x4 Mondeo with the tyres for that price either but I'm
willing to be surpised.

> The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
> France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!

Why? For a start any insurer will treat this with suspicion. Either get
a car in France registered in France or insure your current vehicle to
drive in Europe.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Andrew Norman <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'd look at the Subaru Imprezza and Subaru Forester.

So would I, but I'd check on wheelarch clearances for snowchains. I'd
also be surprised if either of those comes in on budget.

Perhaps a Legacy would be a better bet?

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"Mark Jordan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My parents have just purchased a property in the French alps, and we
> are looking to purchase a car which will spend most of its life down
> there on the snow bound roads of the Alps (inc. Switzerland).
>
> We dont want to spend any more than say £3,000 (less if we can), and
> want something reliable and fun to drive (with at least 130bhp for the
> summer months). I've never owned a 4x4 before, and would prefer
> something like a saloon rather than the traditional off-road 4x4's.
>
> All my family are owners of Volvo T-5's, but the AWD version of the T5
> didn't come along til the V70, which is out of our price range. The
> 850 AWD is also slightly pricey for it's age!
>
> Whatever we get will be fitted with winter tyres etc
>
> We estimate it'll do between 6,000 and 10,000 miles per year, but
> spending the majority of its life in a heated garage. Not worried
> about fuel consumption of insurance costs.
>
> Some ideas off the top of my head include the Mondeo 2.0 Si 4x4 and
> certain Audi Quattro models. Expansion of this list with merits of
> certain cars would be a benifit!
>
> The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
> France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!

I'd go for something like an Impreza 2.0 non turbo. You could pick one up
well within budget.
But then again if its gonna live in France perhaps something like a Peugeot
or Citroen would be better as it'll be easier/cheaper to get them fixed.
And a Citroen Xantia for example would be good with it silly suspension if
you came across some deep snow.

In article <[email protected]>, Mark
Jordan says...

> The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
> France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!
>
Jesus Christ, talk about a stupid and costly way to go about things. So
not only will it be far more expensive to insure but you'll also be
paying £150/year road tax that you'll never use!

What an idiot..


--
Conor

An imperfect plan executed violently is far superior to a perfect plan.
-- George Patton

Conor <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Mark
> Jordan says...
>
> > The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
> > France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!
> >
> Jesus Christ, talk about a stupid and costly way to go about things. So
> not only will it be far more expensive to insure but you'll also be
> paying £150/year road tax that you'll never use!
>
> What an idiot..

Not that stupid the way things are at the moment.

You could basically drive like an utter **** in France in a UK
registered car and all they could give you is a fine, with no points.

It's a very sensible way to do things if you have a UK address.

The same is also true for using a Euro registered car in the UK.
--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300
VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - VW Passat 1.8T 20V SE - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:19:59 +0000, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

>Andrew Norman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'd look at the Subaru Imprezza and Subaru Forester.
>
>So would I, but I'd check on wheelarch clearances for snowchains. I'd

Should be plenty of clearance on the Forester.

>also be surprised if either of those comes in on budget.

You could be right on the Forester, Autotrader only shows one under
£3k. The Impreza shouldn't be so much of a problem though, Autotrader
shows plenty under £3k.
--
Andy Norman [email protected]
http://www.norman.cx/
Replace the fish with my first name to reply

Thank you for some of the decent replies, and some that provided some
light hilarity value.

1/ I am perfectly adept on driving on ice and snow. I spend plenty of
time going up and down ice packed roads in France, Italy, Switzerland
and the like. In fact, I've just returned from Switzerland driving on
several rather interesting swiss passes in the early hours in a highish
powered FWD vehicle. No probs.

2/ 4x4 is not essential. However, show me (or most people) a swiss pass
and the choice of a 4x4 or FWD. I certainly would take the 4x4 over FWD
in these conditions anytime. As I'm sure would the vast majority of
people. The car we purchase will be a secondary, even tertiary vehicle
purely for use on the snow (apart from the rare times we're down there
in the summer). I want 4x4, no question about it.

3/ Ok. So I spent a couple of hundred quid on bringing the car back to
the UK every year. I save more than that on insurance premiums as I
have no form of NCB in France. Add into that the hassle-free factor of
having to go through French beurocracy registering a car where the
owner is not a French national, etc. I may however consider an LHD
vehicle, little benifit though for the use that it will be put to.

4/ I stated 130bhp as a rough figure. I enjoy driving quickly, and when
the roads clear they are fantastic in the summer. I want to be able to
enjoy driving in the summer rather than being stuck in a 4x4 piece of
junk that can barely reach motorway cruising speeds in anything less
than geological time. Also a reason I want a 4x4 saloon type car rather
than a off-road vehicle.

5/ Conor: Please think outside your own silly little mind before you
post useless crap. Refer to point 3.


MJ

"SteveH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1gtdvna.ymba2rgcrtbfN%[email protected]...
> Conor <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, Mark
>> Jordan says...
>>
>> > The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
>> > France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!
>> >
>> Jesus Christ, talk about a stupid and costly way to go about things. So
>> not only will it be far more expensive to insure but you'll also be
>> paying £150/year road tax that you'll never use!
>>
>> What an idiot..
>
> Not that stupid the way things are at the moment.
>
> You could basically drive like an utter **** in France in a UK
> registered car and all they could give you is a fine, with no points.
>
> It's a very sensible way to do things if you have a UK address.
>
> The same is also true for using a Euro registered car in the UK.

So, can i register my car at my friends place in the south of france, and
then proceed to drive like a **** still, but not worry about getting caught?
Is that allowed? Cos its quite appealing


--
Dan

On 2005-03-13, Andrew Norman <[email protected]> wrote:

> You could be right on the Forester, Autotrader only shows one under
> £3k. The Impreza shouldn't be so much of a problem though, Autotrader
> shows plenty under £3k.

The reason I didn't buy an Impreza in the end was because the more
powerful models eat ludicrous amounts of fuel for no apparent reason,
I was seeing specs like 15MPG which is half what even a Lotus Esprit
manages, and even my 2 tonne landy does 25-30. For 3K and below I'd
hope they'd have weedy engines and better fuel economy. Servicing was
also very expensive and needlessly frequent, hopefully not the case
with the less sporty models.

Still, why bother with a low-spec cheap Impreza when you could get a
Forester? Good cars from the look of it.

I'm also a fan of Audis, my 1.9 A4 TDi Automatic commute-wagon does
45-50MPG consistently, a quattro version would be a good bet and is
popular in colder scandinavian climes. The Quattro drivetrain is
supposed to be bullet-proof, and my old 90 Quattro even had rear diff
lock for getting you moving, then at about 30MPH it would
automatically switch off (newer "Quattro" drivetrains aren't as good
as the original in some ways however). You can get those for
1,000-1,500 in good condition so a more recent car would be within
budget.

Or a Landy 110 with a 2.5 petrol? ;-) (cue Steve Firth)

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert

DanTXD <[email protected]> wrote:

> "SteveH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1gtdvna.ymba2rgcrtbfN%[email protected]...
> > Conor <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <[email protected]>, Mark
> >> Jordan says...
> >>
> >> > The car will be a UK car with UK plates, insured in the UK to drive in
> >> > France and will be taken back once a year for it's MOT test!
> >> >
> >> Jesus Christ, talk about a stupid and costly way to go about things. So
> >> not only will it be far more expensive to insure but you'll also be
> >> paying £150/year road tax that you'll never use!
> >>
> >> What an idiot..
> >
> > Not that stupid the way things are at the moment.
> >
> > You could basically drive like an utter **** in France in a UK
> > registered car and all they could give you is a fine, with no points.
> >
> > It's a very sensible way to do things if you have a UK address.
> >
> > The same is also true for using a Euro registered car in the UK.
>
> So, can i register my car at my friends place in the south of france, and
> then proceed to drive like a **** still, but not worry about getting caught?
> Is that allowed? Cos its quite appealing

It is, in theory, possible.
--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300
VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - VW Passat 1.8T 20V SE - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

<[email protected]> wrote:

> I want to be able to enjoy driving in the summer rather than being stuck
> in a 4x4 piece of junk that can barely reach motorway cruising speeds in
> anything less than geological time. Also a reason I want a 4x4 saloon type
> car rather than a off-road vehicle.

Hmm, well an American 4x4 will have closer to 240 bhp than 130 and be
capable of 0-60 in 9.2ish or even less seconds.

> 5/ Conor: Please think outside your own silly little mind before you
> post useless crap. Refer to point 3.

Get your head out of your arse, you're as wrong headed as anyone posting
here, and if you give less than half the story (as you did) then you'll
get less than half the answer.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Ian Rawlings <[email protected]> wrote:

> Or a Landy 110 with a 2.5 petrol? ;-) (cue Steve Firth)

Well at least he wouldn't be getting into trouble in the Alps with that,
he'd be unlikely to get that far.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:48:58 +0000, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2005-03-13, Andrew Norman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You could be right on the Forester, Autotrader only shows one under
>> £3k. The Impreza shouldn't be so much of a problem though, Autotrader
>> shows plenty under £3k.
>
>The reason I didn't buy an Impreza in the end was because the more
>powerful models eat ludicrous amounts of fuel for no apparent reason,
>I was seeing specs like 15MPG which is half what even a Lotus Esprit
>manages, and even my 2 tonne landy does 25-30. For 3K and below I'd

That doesn't sound right.

The Lotus Esprit has a combined fuel consumption of 21.2 mpg,
according to this site:

http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/EBuying/SundayTimes_12_2003.html

The current Impreza WRX has an official combined figure of 30.7 mpg,
the older Impreza Turbos had a figure of around 27 mpg.

I average about 24 mpg in my year 2000 Impreza Turbo, I can get over
30 mpg on long motorway cruises.

Sure you can get the Impreza to drop into the mid teens and below if
you are really hammering it all the time, but with the same treatment
I'm sure the Lotus would quickly drop under 10 mpg.

I think you must have got some duff figures from somewhere, for such a
high performance car the Impreza Turbo is relatively gentle on the
wallet, fuel cost wise at least.

And your 2 tonne Landy doesn't have a 0-60 time of just over 5
seconds...

>hope they'd have weedy engines and better fuel economy. Servicing was
>also very expensive and needlessly frequent, hopefully not the case
>with the less sporty models.

The 7500 service interval on the Impreza definitely is a disadvantage.
--
Andy Norman [email protected]
http://www.norman.cx/
Replace the fish with my first name to reply

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:27:14 UTC, [email protected] (SteveH)
wrote:

: You could basically drive like an utter **** in France in a UK
: registered car and all they could give you is a fine, with no points.
:
: It's a very sensible way to do things if you have a UK address.
:
: The same is also true for using a Euro registered car in the UK.

It's perfectly possible to have a driving record with points on it in
the UK, but not have a UK driving licence.

Ian

--

"Andrew Norman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 13 Mar 2005 09:41:50 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Jordan) wrote:
>
> >Some ideas off the top of my head include the Mondeo 2.0 Si 4x4 and
> >certain Audi Quattro models. Expansion of this list with merits of
> >certain cars would be a benifit!
>
> I'd look at the Subaru Imprezza and Subaru Forester. The Imprezza
> comes in saloon and 5 door hatch back. The Forester benefits from
> increased ground clearance, which might be useful in deep snow, but
> might be a bit too traditional 4x4 for you.
>
> Even the standard non-turbo versions of both meet your power
> requirements, the turbo ones are even more fun...
> --
> Andy Norman [email protected]
> http://www.norman.cx/
> Replace the fish with my first name to reply
I am a big fan of Scooby's but Foresters are a little thin on the ground
have a look round for Legacys particularly the Outback there is a lot of
variation in the range with the twin turbo at the top of the pile . Also
there is the Toyota Corolla 4WD estate probably a little under the 130bhp
but exceptionally capable offroad and of course very reliable but don't
expect to buy on in the UK they are very rare.Also known as the Tercel in
the US and some european countrys well withing the budget
Derek
on second Legacy ( after 3 Tercels)