C
Chris J.
Guest
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:09:58 GMT, Lon <[email protected]> wrote:
>Chris J. proclaimed:
>
>> I'm going to do a google search of this group and see what I can find
>> on any candidate vehicles.
>
> If you are going to be taking customers around in the vehicle, does
> your situation allow enough tax write-off to move up to something
> like a Grand Cherokee or Land Rover LR3?
Based on the tax situation, even a Hummer is possible, due to the huge
tax bonus of it (used for a business). This will be a second vehicle,
so will be entirely deductible for my due to my business. But, they
(that you list) and especially the hummer are large vehicles.
>> I've basically decided that low-range is a must-have. I took a
>> friend's two vehicles (a Subaru Outback and a Jeep Wrangler) through
>> the same bit of mud and sand creekbed. The difference was astounding.
>
> If you are doing a lot of hilly work, avoid the cute utes and
> glorified station wagons and mini-vans. You want an engine that
> has a modified oil system that works under prolonged driving
> at highly tilted angles... e.g. the modified Jag engine in the
> Land Rover....
>
> You'll also want very good low end torque that has predictable
> onset.
Great points! I forgot about the oil system and inclines!! I'm also
very foolish not to have remembered that; I took my old ford Probe on
some 45-degree inclines on some trails the other day (mainly rock) and
it had both oil and coolant warnings come on.
>> The Jeep Liberty (one model, at least) has both low range, and an
>> on-pavement 4WD (and 2wd) settings. This, in my tentative opinion,
>> gives me the best of both worlds?
>>
>> I'm at 7000 ft in northern arizona. Snow and ice are quite common, and
>> also prone to be sudden, severe, and unforcast. This can be very
>> hazardous when back in the mountains on forest service roads, where
>> there is no cell coverage. So, I'd like a vehicle that can get me out
>> of trouble.
>
> In my personal opinion, full time 4wd is superior to part time for
> most owners--e.g. not rock crawlers.
> Particularly when combined with limited slip differentials and
> transfer cases. The benefit is mostly when you are driving on
> good surface and unexpectedly hit a poor traction one...or just
> driving in mountain ice and snow conditions. Plus the 4wd is
> always there...hopefully keeping you *out* of that trouble in
> the first place.
If I get a new vehicle, I'm probably not going to be taking it truly
offroad, but I will be taking it on some very rough trails. Have you
ever been on a Jeep tour in a place like Sedona? That's the kind of
trails I'm talking about; lot's of washouts, gullies, rocks, inclines,
and sand and mud (plus snow and ice). Some of the land I've been
selling is old mining claims back up in the mountains, and the roads,
such as they are, are truly bad. I've been stuck in sand in an AWD
before where a jeep had no trouble, but it wasn't a limited-slip
differential (I had one rear and one front wheel spinning.). I got it
out by jacking it up and putting brush under the wheels, but it's not
something I'd want to do often.
>> Well, I'm probably not going to be able to get a 4X4 up my driveway in
>> snow, now that I think about it, because I can't get a car with ABS
>> down it under control. I just put the left wheels against the curb and
>> take what I calll the two-ton toboggan ride. It's about 150 ft, 35
>> degree slope.
>
> With decent tires, any 4x4 that can't get up the driveway should be
> scrapped. However, if you have a lot of icy snow, you might consider
> a second set of wheels and specialty severe duty artic tires and
> a good set of the S style cable chains. Using slightly undersize
> artic tires helps with adding chains. e.g. the Grand Cherokee
> recommends chains only for the smaller tire size and only type S with
> a very low speed limit.
Quite a few of my neighbors have Hummers, and one wants to try my
driveway the next time it snows, so I guess I'll see. The problem is
it's usually ice overlain by snow, and the 35 degree slope, which
makes it difficult.
> For tires, ones with lotsa tread void and heavily siped tend to be
> better for deeper snow. Ones with less tread void and even more
> heavily siped tend to be better for icy roads and packed snow.
Thanks... I think I should get a second set of tires for the winter
season? I have room to store a second set of tires and rims, and I can
easily change them on myself.
> Never really needed to add chains even when driving a Grand Cherokee
> in the northern Sierra, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado--but always carry
> them.
I carry chains in my cars, and will with a 4X4 too. I've had to use
them several times. I don't bother if it's just for the driveway; too
much trouble.
>> I tend to crawl under every vehicle I look at, before doing anything
>> else. This has saved me a lot of time. For example, I looked at the
>> Hyundai Santa Fe. IMHO, the most dangerous and vulnerable place for
>> anything to be hanging down unprotected is near the middle of the
>> wheel base. The Santa Fe has it's GAS TANK hanging about 1/3 of the
>> way between the front and rear axles, right under the rear seats. It
>> hangs down unprotected, like a darn cliff face! It also appears to be
>> made of plastic. Needless to say, that was as far as I got with
>> looking at that vehicle.
>>
>
> Look for skid plate equipped packages for any SUV. They pay for
> themselves at the first unexpected rock.
Totally agreed, BUT; on some SUV's the skid plate from the
dealer/manufacturer is fiberglass. Am I wrong in thinking that this is
of little use? I much prefer steel.
>> That sounds like a great idea. But, I don't know of any small vehicles
>> with it. But, I've seen it added on, I think?
>
> Never heard of true ride height control for SUV style use as an
> aftermarket. The entire suspension must be designed to maintain
> handling at the various ride heights... e.g. the old Citroen.
AH! I've driven older Citroen's in Europe, and now know exactly what
you mean. That was one great system!
>> I've looked at it. It's a bit big, which is why it's a fallback choice
>> at the moment.
>
> Try a Grand Cherokee if the 4Runner is in your range. The Grand is
> a bit smaller...actually mine is smaller than a Honda or Toyota
> sedan.
Still rather on the large size. I looked at it from the outside when
looking at the Liberty, but it does look smaller than the 4-runner.
>> How does the Liberty stack up against the Cherokee? The Cherokee and
>> grand Cherokee are too large so I haven't looked at them.
>
> Neither is as large as they look. Park them next to a Toyota Camry
> and note which is longer. The Grand Limited and Overland models
> would be close to your Chrysler 300 in the interior..yet still
> have formidable offroad capability.
Interior stuff isn't much of a concern, as long as the seat is halfway
comfortable. The only other thing I like is an FM radio with a CD, but
I can put that in myself.
I do like the compass-thermomiter console, but I can easily add one
myself. I probably need to do that anyway as most don't come with an
altimeter, which is something I find very useful here.
> The Cherokee is more rough road capable than the Liberty, but most
> owners will never need to know the differences. Is only available
> used.
How about the Jimmy? It';s smaller than the Cherokee as I recall?
>> I'm seriously thinking of looking at some non-US models, such as the
>> Mitsubishi Shogun Pinin, because many of them are smaller than their
>> US counterparts. But, what are their real 4X4 capabilities?
>
> Dunno. I'd be more worried about being able to get service as
> compared to a Toyota, Jeep, etc.
That's a big issue. I've bought cars in from Europe before, non US
models, and had headaches in that regard (plus insurance trouble).
These were Lotus Elites (1975 and 1980 models), which did have a US
model, but my mechanicals were entirely different. A major headache
I'd rather avoid. However, some of the forign-only SUV's look much
smaller than their US counterparts, so I'm tempted.
I'm interested in smaller vehicles due to personal preference; I've
driven everything from 18-wheelers to earth-moving equipment, but I
just prefer smaller vehicles. I ignored that preference when I got the
300M and regret it a bit; it's a nice car with plenty of power, but I
just find a smaller car nicer to drive. As a result, I often end up
driving my beat-up wreck of a ford probe (the vehicle the 4x4 will
replace) instead of the 300M around town. (but the 300M is definitely
my choice for long distance).
>> I've decided I do. Some of the trails I go on are really severe, and
>> so are conditions (incline, ice, snow, sand, mud).
>
> Jeep, Land Rover, Toyota 4Runner or Land Cruiser, Mitsu Montero Sport,
> Nissan Xterra, VW, Porsche. Go for full time 4wd so you don't
> get in trouble in the first place. Limited slip or even better
> electronically controlled. And good tires.
> Since you appear to be out in the enviable middle of nowhere, I'd
> still strictly to models where you can get qualified local service.
Good point. That rules out land rover, Porsche, Mercedes, etc. (200
miles to the dealer, each way!)
> Any 4x4 needs regular maintenance [of course so does any vehicle] with
> the added complication of the extra drivetrain components. If you
> expect them to get you home, either keep them well maintained or carry
> a set of mini-bikes for you and your clients.
> The bad news about real 4x4 vehicles is just how far they can get you
> from civilization if they were to break down.
ROFL!!!
Maintenance such as belt, hose, and oil changes I do myself, but I'm
not competent to work on drivetrain stuff. There are decent mechanics
in the area, but as I learned with the Lotus; it's a pain finding one
for an oddball or rare vehicle, and finding parts can be a pain when
there is no dealer in the area.
>Chris J. proclaimed:
>
>> I'm going to do a google search of this group and see what I can find
>> on any candidate vehicles.
>
> If you are going to be taking customers around in the vehicle, does
> your situation allow enough tax write-off to move up to something
> like a Grand Cherokee or Land Rover LR3?
Based on the tax situation, even a Hummer is possible, due to the huge
tax bonus of it (used for a business). This will be a second vehicle,
so will be entirely deductible for my due to my business. But, they
(that you list) and especially the hummer are large vehicles.
>> I've basically decided that low-range is a must-have. I took a
>> friend's two vehicles (a Subaru Outback and a Jeep Wrangler) through
>> the same bit of mud and sand creekbed. The difference was astounding.
>
> If you are doing a lot of hilly work, avoid the cute utes and
> glorified station wagons and mini-vans. You want an engine that
> has a modified oil system that works under prolonged driving
> at highly tilted angles... e.g. the modified Jag engine in the
> Land Rover....
>
> You'll also want very good low end torque that has predictable
> onset.
Great points! I forgot about the oil system and inclines!! I'm also
very foolish not to have remembered that; I took my old ford Probe on
some 45-degree inclines on some trails the other day (mainly rock) and
it had both oil and coolant warnings come on.
>> The Jeep Liberty (one model, at least) has both low range, and an
>> on-pavement 4WD (and 2wd) settings. This, in my tentative opinion,
>> gives me the best of both worlds?
>>
>> I'm at 7000 ft in northern arizona. Snow and ice are quite common, and
>> also prone to be sudden, severe, and unforcast. This can be very
>> hazardous when back in the mountains on forest service roads, where
>> there is no cell coverage. So, I'd like a vehicle that can get me out
>> of trouble.
>
> In my personal opinion, full time 4wd is superior to part time for
> most owners--e.g. not rock crawlers.
> Particularly when combined with limited slip differentials and
> transfer cases. The benefit is mostly when you are driving on
> good surface and unexpectedly hit a poor traction one...or just
> driving in mountain ice and snow conditions. Plus the 4wd is
> always there...hopefully keeping you *out* of that trouble in
> the first place.
If I get a new vehicle, I'm probably not going to be taking it truly
offroad, but I will be taking it on some very rough trails. Have you
ever been on a Jeep tour in a place like Sedona? That's the kind of
trails I'm talking about; lot's of washouts, gullies, rocks, inclines,
and sand and mud (plus snow and ice). Some of the land I've been
selling is old mining claims back up in the mountains, and the roads,
such as they are, are truly bad. I've been stuck in sand in an AWD
before where a jeep had no trouble, but it wasn't a limited-slip
differential (I had one rear and one front wheel spinning.). I got it
out by jacking it up and putting brush under the wheels, but it's not
something I'd want to do often.
>> Well, I'm probably not going to be able to get a 4X4 up my driveway in
>> snow, now that I think about it, because I can't get a car with ABS
>> down it under control. I just put the left wheels against the curb and
>> take what I calll the two-ton toboggan ride. It's about 150 ft, 35
>> degree slope.
>
> With decent tires, any 4x4 that can't get up the driveway should be
> scrapped. However, if you have a lot of icy snow, you might consider
> a second set of wheels and specialty severe duty artic tires and
> a good set of the S style cable chains. Using slightly undersize
> artic tires helps with adding chains. e.g. the Grand Cherokee
> recommends chains only for the smaller tire size and only type S with
> a very low speed limit.
Quite a few of my neighbors have Hummers, and one wants to try my
driveway the next time it snows, so I guess I'll see. The problem is
it's usually ice overlain by snow, and the 35 degree slope, which
makes it difficult.
> For tires, ones with lotsa tread void and heavily siped tend to be
> better for deeper snow. Ones with less tread void and even more
> heavily siped tend to be better for icy roads and packed snow.
Thanks... I think I should get a second set of tires for the winter
season? I have room to store a second set of tires and rims, and I can
easily change them on myself.
> Never really needed to add chains even when driving a Grand Cherokee
> in the northern Sierra, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado--but always carry
> them.
I carry chains in my cars, and will with a 4X4 too. I've had to use
them several times. I don't bother if it's just for the driveway; too
much trouble.
>> I tend to crawl under every vehicle I look at, before doing anything
>> else. This has saved me a lot of time. For example, I looked at the
>> Hyundai Santa Fe. IMHO, the most dangerous and vulnerable place for
>> anything to be hanging down unprotected is near the middle of the
>> wheel base. The Santa Fe has it's GAS TANK hanging about 1/3 of the
>> way between the front and rear axles, right under the rear seats. It
>> hangs down unprotected, like a darn cliff face! It also appears to be
>> made of plastic. Needless to say, that was as far as I got with
>> looking at that vehicle.
>>
>
> Look for skid plate equipped packages for any SUV. They pay for
> themselves at the first unexpected rock.
Totally agreed, BUT; on some SUV's the skid plate from the
dealer/manufacturer is fiberglass. Am I wrong in thinking that this is
of little use? I much prefer steel.
>> That sounds like a great idea. But, I don't know of any small vehicles
>> with it. But, I've seen it added on, I think?
>
> Never heard of true ride height control for SUV style use as an
> aftermarket. The entire suspension must be designed to maintain
> handling at the various ride heights... e.g. the old Citroen.
AH! I've driven older Citroen's in Europe, and now know exactly what
you mean. That was one great system!
>> I've looked at it. It's a bit big, which is why it's a fallback choice
>> at the moment.
>
> Try a Grand Cherokee if the 4Runner is in your range. The Grand is
> a bit smaller...actually mine is smaller than a Honda or Toyota
> sedan.
Still rather on the large size. I looked at it from the outside when
looking at the Liberty, but it does look smaller than the 4-runner.
>> How does the Liberty stack up against the Cherokee? The Cherokee and
>> grand Cherokee are too large so I haven't looked at them.
>
> Neither is as large as they look. Park them next to a Toyota Camry
> and note which is longer. The Grand Limited and Overland models
> would be close to your Chrysler 300 in the interior..yet still
> have formidable offroad capability.
Interior stuff isn't much of a concern, as long as the seat is halfway
comfortable. The only other thing I like is an FM radio with a CD, but
I can put that in myself.
I do like the compass-thermomiter console, but I can easily add one
myself. I probably need to do that anyway as most don't come with an
altimeter, which is something I find very useful here.
> The Cherokee is more rough road capable than the Liberty, but most
> owners will never need to know the differences. Is only available
> used.
How about the Jimmy? It';s smaller than the Cherokee as I recall?
>> I'm seriously thinking of looking at some non-US models, such as the
>> Mitsubishi Shogun Pinin, because many of them are smaller than their
>> US counterparts. But, what are their real 4X4 capabilities?
>
> Dunno. I'd be more worried about being able to get service as
> compared to a Toyota, Jeep, etc.
That's a big issue. I've bought cars in from Europe before, non US
models, and had headaches in that regard (plus insurance trouble).
These were Lotus Elites (1975 and 1980 models), which did have a US
model, but my mechanicals were entirely different. A major headache
I'd rather avoid. However, some of the forign-only SUV's look much
smaller than their US counterparts, so I'm tempted.
I'm interested in smaller vehicles due to personal preference; I've
driven everything from 18-wheelers to earth-moving equipment, but I
just prefer smaller vehicles. I ignored that preference when I got the
300M and regret it a bit; it's a nice car with plenty of power, but I
just find a smaller car nicer to drive. As a result, I often end up
driving my beat-up wreck of a ford probe (the vehicle the 4x4 will
replace) instead of the 300M around town. (but the 300M is definitely
my choice for long distance).
>> I've decided I do. Some of the trails I go on are really severe, and
>> so are conditions (incline, ice, snow, sand, mud).
>
> Jeep, Land Rover, Toyota 4Runner or Land Cruiser, Mitsu Montero Sport,
> Nissan Xterra, VW, Porsche. Go for full time 4wd so you don't
> get in trouble in the first place. Limited slip or even better
> electronically controlled. And good tires.
> Since you appear to be out in the enviable middle of nowhere, I'd
> still strictly to models where you can get qualified local service.
Good point. That rules out land rover, Porsche, Mercedes, etc. (200
miles to the dealer, each way!)
> Any 4x4 needs regular maintenance [of course so does any vehicle] with
> the added complication of the extra drivetrain components. If you
> expect them to get you home, either keep them well maintained or carry
> a set of mini-bikes for you and your clients.
> The bad news about real 4x4 vehicles is just how far they can get you
> from civilization if they were to break down.
ROFL!!!
Maintenance such as belt, hose, and oil changes I do myself, but I'm
not competent to work on drivetrain stuff. There are decent mechanics
in the area, but as I learned with the Lotus; it's a pain finding one
for an oddball or rare vehicle, and finding parts can be a pain when
there is no dealer in the area.
)
