Brake failure.....nearly

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T

Trevt

New Member
Posts
55
Location
Lytham St Annes, Lancashire
Hi all

Only seem to log on when I have a problem, hopefully someday I'll know enough to give others advice :)

I'm in the Lakes wth my daughter and our caravan, arrived Monday no problem. This afternoon we went to the Lakeland Motor Museum and when I moved off in the car park found I had a very soft brake pedal. Got some pressure when pedal was pumped, enough to stop safely but needed to leave myself plenty of room. In addition I have 3 warning lights now permanently on - ABS, Brake warning & TC.
As I'm due to tow home at the end of the week I need to get this fixed PDQ, which means a garage.

Three questions if I may be permitted:

- I'm assuming brake accumulator is most likely cause. Any quick checks?
- anyone used a garage in Staveley (E A Mitchinson)? and
- depending on answer to above anyone recommend a friendly garage as close as possible to Kendal area?

Obviously I don't want to drive anymore than essential to get to a garage but need someone who will do a proper job without ripping the backside out of it :)

Many thanks
 
well mr rowland what did you do ? fit a new one ? or s/h ? was it easy ??? how did you dfo it ??? come on mate give some info ,,,please and end result ???? cheers mozz
 
mozz smith said:
well mr rowland what did you do ? fit a new one ? or s/h ? was it easy ??? how did you dfo it ??? come on mate give some info ,,,please and end result ???? cheers mozz
Click to expand...

Mozzy NEVER fit a S/H one. To fit new one, remove keys from ignition. You do not want anyone switching it on. Pump brake pedal up to 30 times to depressurise system. Unscrew old unit, you will need a good chain wrench. Remove and screw new unit on. Switch on ignition to pressurise system job done. No need to bleed brakes.
 
Mr Rowland - thank you

Mozz Thasnk you also.
My sweet girl is a dream for towing, absolutely no problem if keeping it sensible. Feel it a bit at 60 and over when coaches or large vans pass. But at 55 - 60 sweet. I tow a twin axle 1819 KG unladen caravan. Previously towed a 950 KG on wife's Freelander and the difference is so real - twice the weight and more stable.
As for brakes had no problems and sharp/good pressure other than a squeal when braking (towing or not) but pads all got plenty of life. Suspect a warped disk or similar and have a set of discs and pads waiting at home to be fitted this weekend.
This week was short notice - no parking imposed by council near my house because of a certain golf tournament. According to wife some neighbours have had cars towed today!!!!

Fanatic - ALWAYS new for brakes (unless it's a caliper I have refurb'ed)

:)
 
Trevt, probably the accumulator is the culprit, but do check if the abs pump is working. There should be a few second whirring sound after few brake presses. If the accumulator is fecked, the whirring sound should be after each brake pedal press.
 
I regret to say, that sounds more like the pump than the accumulator. Accumulator failure, pump runs too often but brakes work. Pump or pressure switch failure, brakes soft, need pumping from pedal. Check the pump runs, ignition on, pump pedal, listen for pump running or better feel the pump.
 
Also, check the only black relay in the engine bay fuse box. It controls the brake pump and it's a known weak point because of the pretty amazing quantity of current it controls. Try to short the contacts but beware, there could be a large spark :)
 
You can check operation of the pump by grounding the pin opposite the thin one on the relay, with the ignition on. If it runs, it's almost certainly your pressure switch at fault. You can also rig a switch and some wire out of the bonnet and in through the drivers window as an emergency 'get you home' measure to manually repressurise the brakes. Don't run the pump for more than about 15-20 secs at a time though, or you risk over-pressurising the system.

Pressure switches are a ball-ache because they are unobtainable new, except as part of a complete pump assembly... Emmotts will however, sell you a used one for around £40.
 
Chort & datatek - well called.
Took her over to garage this morning - brakes worked until I pulled into his yard when 3 warning lights came on and pedal went soft. He had a look round, confirmed it wasn't anything obvious and suggested a Land Rover specialist nearby.
Again helpful and broke the news gently that it was ABS pump/master cylinder after reading codes - pressure switch not operating.
Suggested new unit was £2 - 3K - feck, feck, feck

I can't afford a new replacement, the car is worth less.

Any suggestions? Quick glance on Ebay brings up a few at very reasonable prices, but guess takes your risk according to your budget. Can these be rebuilt easily or anyone out there supplying reasonably priced units. Are they used in anything else (that might be cheaper)?

Seems an easy in-out replacement.

Thanks again
 
Trevt said:
Chort & datatek - well called.
Took her over to garage this morning - brakes worked until I pulled into his yard when 3 warning lights came on and pedal went soft. He had a look round, confirmed it wasn't anything obvious and suggested a Land Rover specialist nearby.
Again helpful and broke the news gently that it was ABS pump/master cylinder after reading codes - pressure switch not operating.
Suggested new unit was £2 - 3K - feck, feck, feck

I can't afford a new replacement, the car is worth less.

Any suggestions? Quick glance on Ebay brings up a few at very reasonable prices, but guess takes your risk according to your budget. Can these be rebuilt easily or anyone out there supplying reasonably priced units. Are they used in anything else (that might be cheaper)?

Seems an easy in-out replacement.

Thanks again
Click to expand...

Take a punt at second hand Pump unit Around £80-£120 from scrappy. Do change the accumulator (another £80) for a brand new one though so you can be sure.

I've done it on mine when the whole pump failed. Try and get one with at least a 3 month guarantee to. Should be plenty about. Dead easy to do the whole pump...30 mins with RAVE.

2-3k for a new Wabco pump seems a bit excessive - £1500 tops from LR! Specialist my foot...I suppose he said it had to be specially ordered from Japan to....


Clarky, I believe, can give you details for just changing the pressure switch
 
Last edited:
aerofabrique said:
Take a punt at second hand Pump unit Around £80-£120 from scrappy. Do change the accumulator (another £80) for a brand new one though so you can be sure.

I've done it on mine when the whole pump failed. Try and get one with at least a 3 month guarantee to. Should be plenty about. Dead easy to do the whole pump...30 mins with RAVE.

2-3k for a new Wabco pump seems a bit excessive - £1500 tops from LR! Specialist my foot...I suppose he said it had to be specially ordered from Japan to....


Clarky, I believe, can give you details for just changing the pressure switch
Click to expand...

Emmotts will supply you one for around £40. It's the big green thing with the plug attached to it on the left side of the pump.

To remove it, undo the pump mounting bolts so you can move the pump for better access. It just unscrews from the pump body, but can be pretty tight to get moving - use a spanner that's the right fit (not enough clearance between it and the pump body to get a socket on it) - I don't recall the actual size - and be careful, since it's milled ally and easily damaged or rounded off by a much harder spanner. If it really doesn't want to shift, you can use grips - you'll be throwing it away anyway.
Make sure you have something underneath or around the pump to catch brake fluid, as quite a bit will spill out. I found, though, that the system didn't require bleeding after I'd fitted the new one - although by rights I really should have!

The system is identical to that used on some Saabs, and unlike LR, Saab list it as a seperate part number - but it is no longer available.

As others have said, it's a good idea to change the accumulator as well.
 
Guys - as always reassuring and helpful. However I'm a bit confused (probably because I have no pictures, manuals and am struggling to get much in terms of downloads sitting in the rainy lake district with little 'un and worry of a fecking big caravan to get home :) ). So please be patient!!!

Reading the replies and link to other post, adding that to what I was told (Gibsons of Kendal/Land rover Parts, Kendal) today and thinking what I do/don't hear when starting up..... I do seem to be missing a pump running when ignition switched on. Assume that's the ABS pump not kicking in.

Guy in Kendal was very specific that the pressure switch was in the alloy block that sits beneath the fluid reservoir. That is what he was quoting for (in fairness 2 - 3K was retail he did say they'd prob get it for £1500 and they had a few landies breaking, just no Range Rovers).

However reading the posts you seem to suggest the pump - is this what sits directly beneath the accumulator?

And the relay?

Questions:

- replace pump, accumulator & relay and ignore block under reservoir?
- replace block, pump, accumulator and relay

If I can confirm relay is fecked and replace it will that give me a quick fix, or is it likely pump is also now fecked and not worth trying?

My wife is joining us Sat so if I can get a next day delivery the relay can be replaced. Unfortunately she won't be able to carry my tool box on the train so stuck with a pair of pliers, big adjustable spanner (for gas bottles) and screwdrivers ....... and a hammer :) She could bring me a small selection of spanners and multi-meter if I can be very descriptive in what I want and have parts. But suspect site warden won't look kindly to a lot of mechanical work :(

Please feel free to treat me as the eejit I am - coming away with no toolbox, no spares and still trying to understand the Range Rover V8. An impulse buy that I have always wanted, love and am only starting to try and fathom the beautifully complex and over engineered systems :)

Thanks again
 
The guy in Kendal is incorrect as to the location of the pressure switch.

I've just taken some pics to help you out - gimme 10 mins to label them and I'll post them up.
 
Ok... first off, this is where the pressure switch is:

IMG_1082.jpg


And this is the ABS pump relay: (mine is a diesel, and there are some slight differences in the V8 fusebox, I think, although I believe the relevant relay is in the same place...

IMG_1083.jpg


This is the relay removed, indicating the terminal (85) that you need to ground to make the pump run:

IMG_1084.jpg


Take a piece of wire, and hold the bare end against terminal 85 as you push the relay back in... it should stay in. Then with the ignition on, ground the wire - the pump should run. Let it run for about 15-20 secs, but no longer. Depending on exactly which part of the pressure switch has failed, this may, or may not, put out all the warning lights. It should, if the pump runs, give you a firm brake pedal and functioning brakes back again.

You will get anywhere between about 5-15 full applications of braking before the pedal goes soft again, depending on what state your accumulator is in.

If the pump runs when you ground relay pin 85, there is no need to replace anything other than the pressure switch.
 
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