Disco 2 Blowing exhaust manifold, again. Probably need new cylinder head; what am I looking at?

Si Click said:

Now that has brought back some memories. Mt dad had two as company cars in the 70s and when new they were brilliant; great handling and performance (for the time). I bought a secondhand one in 1985 and it was definitely tired. I never overheated it or blew a head gasket, but the electrics were shocking,at one point going to dipped beam turned off the lights completely.

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You was lucky, !!!
Mine was a dream from when they first came out, along with the Stag.
Finally got to the point where i could buy and old one, about 10 years old.
The bodywork, the normal weak spot, had been Ziebarted from new, so was great, but once I had replacd a missing spring in the carbs linkage, it went like the proverbial off a polished shovel. But soon it was obvious that the bores were so worn it was blowing oil out the breather.
New short engine time. Massive expense. Earbashing from the (ex-to be) wife. Once back on the road, all tappet shims were recut to give decent clearance, some had absolutely none, and I did not know at the time that thinner ones were available. Not for the Sprint but for the Hillman Imp. anyway, a mate ground them down. Then a cylinder wasn't firing properly so it became apparent the valve guide had worn so much the valve wasn't seating properly, so off to the garage for new ones, in a couple of cylinders.
Drove it home, went down a nearby dual carriageway to see how it went. sudden nasty noise, engine ran all over the place, just limped it home.
In those days Trading Standards sent out engineers to exam problems and he demanded the garage strip the motor down to the last nut and bolt and then call him. Turned out the stupid mechanic had overtightened one of the bolts securing the camshaft sprocket wheel to the cam. It sheered and fortunately there are two, which saved the engine just. Then it started missing again, and, despite the fact I had told the garage to check all the valve guides, you guessed it, at least another one needed doing. So back to the garage yet again, main dealer all the way by the way. At least I had stopped paying them! Then on the way home, bang. Yet again. The new valve had siezed in its new valve guide. Back to the stealers again. Left it with them. Picked it up rattle from the head.
By this time I had decided that I was going to work on the car myself as the official garage mechanics were obviously not to be trusted. And sure enough the rattle was coming from where a lazy mechanic had ground a chamfer on the edge of a valve bucket as he was finding it just a little tricky to fit it in the head, lazy barsteward. So the head was history. Heads, even then, were rare as they were described by many as like aluminium Swiss cheese, being the first 16 valve production heads. I eventually managed to source a 2nd hand head and fit it. Then a problem seemed to arise with the timing chain, so I got it all off and back on again, can't remember what the problem was, but I sorted it, EXCEPT, the timing chain would only be OK for just a little while after starting then it would rattle, the timing was shot, the engine would over heat and I had to stop it. I redid that timing chain over and over again. In the end I was forced to give up and flogged the thing to someone who built a Kit Car around it. The only car that has ever beaten me.
It turned out that I should have filled the chain tensioner with petroleum jelly to prime it until the oil pressure rose.
In those days, no internet, no YouTube, no forums, nothing. I wasn't even a member of an owners club. Only the Haynes manual which was no use for this, and I had far fewer friends in the game.
Tough and expensive lesson. Had no other car so used to have to push the weekly wash up the hill on a bike to the laundrette, rain or shine, until we got a cheap banger!
Never trusted a garage very often since and at least one time out of two have had to put wrong the mistakes they made. The latest disaster being the wife's Porsche speedster replica (semi-auto) which £1500 later still doesn't have a working clutch but does have a nasty extra noise.
Even so called LR specialists whose diagnostics don't know left from right when it comes to hubs. Trust guys on this forum FAR more!

Yup, you had it far worse than me. My engine was sweet from the off and the overdrive gearbox was a delight. I put Konis on, which gave it a much firmer ride, and found the dodgy earth that was screwing the lights. A year later I sold it to a mate who had no problems until he had new pads fitted by a garage. While driving south on the A1 a short while later he was surprised to be overtaken by a wheel. He was positively shocked to discover it was one of his. He claimed there was no warning beforehand, no wobble at all. The garage admitted that they may have inadvertently failed to tighten the wheel bolts.

Si Click said:

Yup, you had it far worse than me. My engine was sweet from the off and the overdrive gearbox was a delight. I put Konis on, which gave it a much firmer ride, and found the dodgy earth that was screwing the lights. A year later I sold it to a mate who had no problems until he had new pads fitted by a garage. While driving south on the A1 a short while later he was surprised to be overtaken by a wheel. He was positively shocked to discover it was one of his. He claimed there was no warning beforehand, no wobble at all. The garage admitted that they may have inadvertently failed to tighten the wheel bolts.

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Beginning to think there is a secret mechanic's school that teaches them how to completely fuck up any decent car.

Well this is the "gift" that keeps on giving. When the new 3rd party have had the head to find the source of the fault with the valves they have discovered a stud inside the top of the head. Evidently it's this that has caught on the valve and caused the damage.

This will likely mean the garage will want to charge for all of the extra work they have had to do, as well as passing on the costs from getting someone else to fix the head.

Aside from how in hell I'm going to afford what could now be well over £2k I'm guessing, how realistic is it to get the extra costs back from the guy I originally took the head to. He is the only possible source of this stud; but won't it just be a "he said/he said" situation and I can't prove anything well enough?

Get a letter to how much it has cost, from the garage, and their findings. Send the garage a 14 day letter, with a copy, asking for the money. If they say no, send them a 7 day letter, and a copy of the small claims court you have now filled in, via moneyclaimonline. That soon makes a garage listen. See how much they offer you. Only costs £99 to make a claim, and you dont need to go through with it all the way to court. The court will send out all letters, and ask how the garage wants to settle. See what happens then... they may make you an offer.

Right, this is where I start to get serious as I feel so strongly for you, having been there myself.
You need to document in the greatest detail possible and with backing verification in the form of anything written or witnessed, exactly was has happened all along.
This new issue of the stud that is somehow preventing the valve from working needs proper investigation. It would appear that the valve problem is not now due to the head skim, which I must admit I thought would have affected all valves, or at least one bank, not just one valve.
the fact remains that you have passed the vehicle to a bunch of professionals who, one after another, have worked on it. You have taken their advice and paid them.
None of this is your fault and, not being an expert, you could not be expected to have prevented anything that has gone wrong from going wrong. The fault is with the people who worked on your vehicle.
Unless some member with legal knowledge jumps on this, and contradicts me, this is my personaI opinion.
I would get statements from all parties involved. If both the garage and the person you last took the head to state what they have seen then the blame has to lie, as you said with the first lot who worked on the head. This would be two to one.
Once the head left the specialists, it should have been in a fit condition to be fitted by the garage. If it wasn't it was their fault. If it wasn't and they knew it and they didn't inform you of this, then again, it was their fault. They should pay for any corrective work needed to the head and the cost of removal and refitting.
I would most certainly be talking small claims track by now. Easy enough on line and I have always found them to be very sympathetic to the man in the street getting ripped off by the unscrupulous trader.
When I was going through this I had many sleepless nights about it plus a lot of inconvenience, as you have clearly explained happened to you. I also wondered where the next penny was coming from.
You could try contacting both Trading Standards and the Citizens Advice Bureau. They cost nothing and are there to help.
Again I REALLY sympathise and feel for you in all this and wish you absolutely the very best of luck in solving this.
You could do worse than show this thread to anyone who might be able to help you. It may wander around a bit but it contains a time line which might be useful to you.

I did some work for a church who told me they couldnt pay the £8800 bill. I took them to small claims and won. Dont just think about it, get the ball rolling. Make sure you have evidence via a report, and pictures if possible. Everything that could convince a small claims judge to side with you will help.

My main concern is the he said/he said nature of the whole thing and how realistic that is at standing up in court. Obviously I want to try and pursue it, but I just feel pretty hopeless about the chances if the garage refuses to cooperate.

They will refuse, this method tips your hand.

Although I think the garage are a bunch of numpties I think it is the first lot who worked on the head who made the mistake. You could try to take the garage to court but I think they would be better as witnesses to the state of the head when it came back to them to fit. It is the one's who made the cock-up who are your target. Also the last lot of people who are working on your head would also testify to the state of it and the problems caused. If they say they do not wan to testify do not be afraid to tell them you will sub peona them into court. Refusal do comply is contempt of court and they will not do that to themselves, very expensive for them.
I have used this in the past and never had anyone sub poenaed not turn up. Once in court they will have to answer questions, they know that and will be far more likely to be helpful to you.
Do not be afraid, use all the free help you can get and read up on it. We all had to do it for a first time.
I am not boasting, just trying to give you confidence, but I have never lost a small claims case and I have taken Carphone Warehouse, B&Q to court as well as various small time idiots. It really is not that difficult, and I am no legal expert, just an ordinary bloke. For what it costs inrelation to what you stand to lose...
Best of luck.

tilly2 said:

They will refuse, this method tips your hand.

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In what sense?

Stanleysteamer said:

Although I think the garage are a bunch of numptie

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Why?

Stanleysteamer said:

I think it is the first lot who worked on the head who made the mistake.

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There's a tiny possibility that my garage could have; but they'll know once they reassemble it if they have a stud missing.

Stanleysteamer said:

You could try to take the garage to court but I think they would be better as witnesses to the state of the head when it came back to them to fit. It is the one's who made the cock-up who are your target. Also the last lot of people who are working on your head would also testify to the state of it and the problems caused.

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Yes, I've asked my garage for a report once they're done. Will be asking from the other place too.

Stanleysteamer said:

I have never lost a small claims case and I have taken Carphone Warehouse, B&Q to court as well as various small time idiots. It really is not that difficult, and I am no legal expert, just an ordinary bloke.

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My main concern is the strength of my case and the he said/he said nature of it

Tips your hand in that you have an option, the garage should take into consideration, instead of turfing you out of reception... you wont take no for an answer.

The whole problem with all this is that we are trying to advise you without being on the spot and without being able to examine the head and see the problems.
It is even slightly hazy as to how many companies have had their fingers in the pie, so to speak.

I, and others, have already said that it is NOT good advice to always skim a head just because it has been removed. The head was removed for work to be done on it to do with the exhaust manifold, nothing to do with the surface of the head where it meets the head gasket and the block. IF the head gasket had blown then it MIGHT have been good advice, but not without a proper machine shop looking at the head and measuring any gap there might be. This is done quite simply by placing a straight edge across the head from all angles and checking the gaps between it and the head all over the place with feeler gauges. If there are appreciable gaps, then skimming maybe indicated, but this sort of head does not take much skimming before it causes more problems than it cures. However, there was no indication whatsoever that there was a head problem where it interfaces with the block. THIS is why I said I felt the garage were numpties. They suggested skimming it for, as far as I can see, no good reason.
There was a time, quite a while ago, when aluminium heads WERE prone to warping and skimming them was far more normal practice, but these were aluminium petrol heads that would warp in relation to cast blocks and sometimes it was due to the head bolts not having been loosened properly and in the right order. In those days you could get hold of gaskets of varying thickness quite easily. Those days are by and larger passed.

You have not made it absolutely clear how the stud has caused the valve problem. This we need to have clarified in order to be able to advise you further. I cannot see how simply disassembling the head to send it off to the bunch who did the machining work on the manifold stud, etc could have caused the problem, although I think they might have taken sufficient interest to look at it and show you what they found.

The machine shop that did the work on the manifold mountings: stud hole(s) etc, if it did the work properly should not have impinged upon the valve. If it did, it suggests to me that they drilled into an area close to a valve guide and disturbed it enough to cause leakage, and/or distortion which caused the valve to be unable to move as freely as it should. Or cause it to leak.

You mentioned: "There's a tiny possibility that my garage could have (made the mistake); but they'll know once they reassemble it if they have a stud missing." This has me very confused. There are 10 studs that the manifold needs to be secured to the head. Do you mean one of these studs? Which are absolutely obvious, if one is missing or not, or do you mean another stud? Or perhaps a locating dowel, which is not the same thing at all? Or do you think they took a stud out and caused damage while doing that?

"When the new 3rd party have had the head to find the source of the fault with the valves they have discovered a stud inside the top of the head. Evidently it's this that has caught on the valve and caused the damage." This is obviously of interest. "in the top of the head", I have no idea what this means, never having taken a TD5 head off. So I am now surmising. But I have had a search on fitting a TD5 head and can find no mention of a stud, only bolts. I understand that the head is in two parts, maybe this is something to do with what they are talking about. Without thorough knowledge of the head, or pictures, we are in the dark.

No garage should be assembling a head to a block without being sure that everything is absolutely OK with the head. If not and they still try to assemble it then they would be numpties, once again.

There is the possibility of taking joint action against both the garage, if they have been unprofessional and the people who did the head work, if they also have been unprofessional. Try not to be afraid of this. You have done nothing wrong. Garages and other businesses tend to rely on their customers being too scared to take them to court, but in the small claims track you have nothing to be scared of, the costs are all up front, they are minimal and if/when you win the case you will get them all back. As far as the judge is concerned, you confided your vehicle to professionals to fix and they have not fixed it and yet they charged you, or are charging you, for the work they have not done or are not doing properly. That is wrong and therefore unlawful. For it to be lawful, you would have to have sabotaged your own vehicle as they were working on it, which you have not done. It is that simple. You never told them to do anything stupid, you could not have done that as you are not the expert. You took their professional advice, if they were wrong that was their fault, not yours. It doesn't matter which company made the mistake, the judge will judge them as either both being partially at fault or one or the other being totally at fault. But no way could he/she see you as being at fault.

Do take advice, this is after all just a forum. Even if you have to talk to a solicitor and pay costs for the advice, you can put this cost into your claim and get it back. Still keeping it in the small claims track.
Again, i wish you the best of luck
Stan

I'm not sure why everyone is obsessing over the skimming of the head which never happened; this is entirely irrelevant. The mechanic at my garage just seemed to think that it ought to have been done for no other reason than the head was removed. But I guess that a blown head gasket is probably the most common reason to remove it - so maybe that's why he thought that.

Regardless, it never happened, so maybe I need to give a better account of what did.

As per the OP on this thread, the exhaust manifold warped, ripping out the not-so-great bolt that had been bodged into the old damaged stud hole in the head. That's the reason I had to have the head taken off, and the place I found to sort it was a place that specialises in remanufacturing heads in Bradford. As far as I was concerned at the time he did a great job, putting in a much larger stud, with washer and nut and sorted the manifold to match. He also replaced all of the other studs in the head for me. All seemed great when I picked it up and brought it back to my garage to be refitted.

My garage did the work of putting it all back together, then came to turn the engine over by hand. At about 1/4 turn instead of starting to get compression it just seemed to stick/jam stiff. They then got someone else in to help them take a look, did some diagnostic work, disassembled stuff, checked all the timing (even though it had all been locked up while apart) and eventually determined that one of the valves wasn't fully closing as it was bent and so the piston was catching it. As a result they sent it off with the someone else (another, more local head specialist) to have a closer look at.

This specialist has replaced the valve and tried to work out what the cause of it was, but couldn't find anything. At some point they have then turned the head over, and out of it has fallen "a stud". At this point (until we get it back along with the damaged parts and stud) I don't know what sort of stud, nor have I been able to find out just where it has fallen out of, but the belief is that the first head specialist has accidentally dropped this stud in there and not noticed, it's then got caught up and caused the damage to the valve.

Hopefully my garage get the head back today and we can get some more detail.

I too have been successful in recovering over £10,000 in the small claims court from a shyster company. However, it is by no means easy and will give you sleepless nights.

The problem it seems to me is that you will have 2 (or maybe even 3) companies all blaming the others and with no physical evidence or paper trail proving your case is going to be an uphill struggle.

If it was me I would bite the bullet, draw a line under it and accept I'd wasted money and time.

I think it is stories like this that lead to mistrust of garages and doing as much on these cars as we can. There is also the cost saving and satisfaction.

Naf623 said:

eventually determined that one of the valves wasn't fully closing as it was bent and so the piston was catching it.

but the belief is that the first head specialist has accidentally dropped this stud in there and not noticed, it's then got caught up and caused the damage to the valve.

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That is much clearer thanks. I was trying to work out how the first damaged stud could have got into a position to impact a valve; foreign object damage explains it, but does not help as it could have been introduced at any stage. I doubt you would have much luck pressing a claim. However, with a new valve guide and valve would you have a working head? That would be good news and not too expensive, or has there been more damage?

Naf623 said:

In trying to replace the stud, the garage discovered the remnants of an old stud in the bottom of the hole, along with part of a drill bit.

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...from your very first post. Wonder if this is what has been found.
Watching this thread avidly.
Best of luck.

Well the fun is over, I have her back and fettled, hopefully.

The upshot in the end is that we have no idea what caused the damage to the valve; the stud that fell out was from the top for securing something else entirely.