Best soft roader for snow

Hi,

I'm looking for advice on the best soft roader for snowy roads. We are about
to replace our trusty Mazda 323 and are toying with the idea of an SUV. The
main reason being that we live in a small village in rural Aberdeenshire and
for the past six years we have got stuck at least a couple of times a year.
Only once had to be towed out but I'm getting bored of standing in blizzards
and digging our way to freedom.

So I want something that will cope with around a foot of snow on the road
but (since this only happens for a week or two each year) I don't want to
give up too much road ability. So my wish list is.

1. Price (new) less than £20k
2. Fuel economy better than 35mpg
3. Enough space for a family (ideally with enough boot space for a bike)
4. Not too hard to park
5. Long service intervals (we do over 20,000 miles a year)
6. Low service costs
7. Longevity. I'd aim to keep it for 10 years i.e. > 200,000 miles.

So far the choice seems to be between the Rav4 5 door D-4D, Freelander T4d
and X-trail Dci

Any thoughts on which of those (or any others that fit my criteria) would be
best on snow. Don't need any real offroad ability, just don't want to get
stuck next winter.

Cheers,

Andy

<[email protected]> wrote:

> So far the choice seems to be between the Rav4 5 door D-4D, Freelander T4d
> and X-trail Dci
>
> Any thoughts on which of those (or any others that fit my criteria) would be
> best on snow. Don't need any real offroad ability, just don't want to get
> stuck next winter.

X-trail is probably the best of that bunch, but if you're getting stuck
in a Mazda 323, you'll probably get stuck in a soft roader. technique
matters far more than 4WD in snow and 4WD of itself is no guarantee that
you won't get stuck.

TBH if you want 4WD just for snow, I'd consider a Subaru (Forester), but
also get yourself prepared in winter. Get some chains, and get yourself
on a course that covers winter driving. Remember the Scandiwegians,
Swiss and Austrians all cope with deep snow without 4WD.

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On 23-Feb-2004, [email protected] (Steve Firth) wrote:

> X-trail is probably the best of that bunch, but if you're getting stuck
> in a Mazda 323, you'll probably get stuck in a soft roader. technique
> matters far more than 4WD in snow and 4WD of itself is no guarantee that
> you won't get stuck.

Good point and to be honest if we can get away without 4WD then I'd rather
just get a decent estate car (better for the other 50 weeks of the year).
But the cases where we have got stuck seem to be situations where an SUV
would cope OK. This year we had two "problems"

1. Going up a steep hill in the highlands just as a snow storm hit. Hit the
bottom of the hill at a descent speed. Traction control kicked in and droped
the revs but just didn't have enough grip to get up the hill.

2. Going along a B road that had been plowed by the local farmer (as most of
the ones around our way are). Again kept the speed up and a light touch on
the throttle but as the snow got deeper we just got bogged down by the high
ridge of snow in the centre of the road (basically a clearance issue) then
stopped when we lost traction on one wheel (crappy low profile tyres).

We have managed to get through some horrible conditions using chains but
they are such a pain to put on that we usually end up getting stuck before
doing so.

> TBH if you want 4WD just for snow, I'd consider a Subaru (Forester), but
> also get yourself prepared in winter. Get some chains, and get yourself
> on a course that covers winter driving. Remember the Scandiwegians,
> Swiss and Austrians all cope with deep snow without 4WD.

Subarus (Legacy) were our first thought but they don't do a deisel option.
Best fuel economy seems to be around 30mph. The Rav4 for example gets close
to 40mpg. Doing over 20,000 miles a year that difference works out to around
£500 a year in fuel costs. Plus the Subaru's need servicing every 7,500
miles i.e. every four and a half months !

Cheers,

Andy

> So I want something that will cope with around a foot of snow on the
> road but (since this only happens for a week or two each year) I
> don't want to give up too much road ability. So my wish list is.
>
> 1. Price (new) less than £20k

On a flat snowy surface four wheel drive is a help but not
as much as you might think, as Steve Firth rightly comments.
In deep/drifted snow ground clearance is your best friend and
some of those soft-roaders might disappoint. How about buying an
oldish "proper" 4x4 for about £5k and an ordinary estate car for
£15k to drive the rest of the year? Plus that means that you
can keep decent snow tyres on the 4x4 ready for the
bad weather.

-- Steve

On 23-Feb-2004, "Steve Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote:

> How about buying an
> oldish "proper" 4x4 for about £5k and an ordinary estate car for
> £15k to drive the rest of the year? Plus that means that you
> can keep decent snow tyres on the 4x4 ready for the

That's certainly an option and I wouldn't rule it out. My main worry would
be that the 4x4 would sit in the drive for 11 months (taxed, insured and
taking up space) then fail to start on the day that we need it. I know I
could regularly check it, but I also know I wont.

Cheers,

Andy

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> On 23-Feb-2004, "Steve Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > How about buying an
> > oldish "proper" 4x4 for about £5k and an ordinary estate car for
> > £15k to drive the rest of the year? Plus that means that you
> > can keep decent snow tyres on the 4x4 ready for the
>
> That's certainly an option and I wouldn't rule it out. My main worry would
> be that the 4x4 would sit in the drive for 11 months (taxed, insured and
> taking up space) then fail to start on the day that we need it. I know I
> could regularly check it, but I also know I wont.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy

I'm not sure what the prices are for Isuzu Troopers/Bighorns, but if any '03
models are left, they're dead cheap apparantly. Since they're going out of
manufacture in preferance for a all-new style built in the USA cause they
cjust weren't selling fast enough and had surplus production and they just
have the old stock sitting in depots ready for delivery now. The lotus tuned
ones are great onroaders while still excellent offroad. resale will be low,
but if you're gonna keep it 10 years.. who cares...

Fit fairly narrow tires for snow, you want a tyre that crunches throught he
snow to contact the road below... wide low-profile tyres like on sedans are
simply to wide and the wheels float over the snow surface... slipping and
sliding.

>Subarus (Legacy) were our first thought but they don't do a deisel option.
>Best fuel economy seems to be around 30mph. The Rav4 for example gets close
>to 40mpg. Doing over 20,000 miles a year that difference works out to
around
>£500 a year in fuel costs. Plus the Subaru's need servicing every 7,500
>miles i.e. every four and a half months !

Hi, my Freelander TD4 just about squeezes 40mph on lots of short, mixed
runs.

Boot is terrifically small, though.

Cheers

Blippie
--
Visit the alt.aviation.safety FAQ online at www.blippie.org.uk

"Blippie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi, my Freelander TD4 just about squeezes 40mph on lots of short, mixed
runs.

Many a true word . . .

Budgie

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:23:51 -0000, "Blippie"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Boot is terrifically small, though.

That's a right royal pain in the butt for me, which is why I'm
seriously considering swapping for an X-Trail.

An X-Trail might not be so much bigger in physical terms, but unlike
the Freelander the rear seats do fold flat into the floor space. With
the Freelander the rear seats just sit up significantly when folded.

PoP

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"rnf2" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > On 23-Feb-2004, "Steve Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > How about buying an
> > > oldish "proper" 4x4 for about £5k and an ordinary estate car for
> > > £15k to drive the rest of the year? Plus that means that you
> > > can keep decent snow tyres on the 4x4 ready for the
> >
> > That's certainly an option and I wouldn't rule it out. My main worry would
> > be that the 4x4 would sit in the drive for 11 months (taxed, insured and
> > taking up space) then fail to start on the day that we need it. I know I
> > could regularly check it, but I also know I wont.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Andy

<SNIP>

> Fit fairly narrow tires for snow, you want a tyre that crunches throught he
> snow to contact the road below... wide low-profile tyres like on sedans are
> simply to wide and the wheels float over the snow surface... slipping and
> sliding.


I'd second that and a previous one about four wheel drive not being
that necessary especially as you are compromising more than a little
toward one end of the spectrum in terms of your usage . . .

I dont know whether they still do a big Citroen with a 'pump up'
suspension. I drove those in deep snow on mountainous roads ten years
ago in France and Spain and a couple of years later in the Baltics.

On 'tall' setting they'd go anywhere on roads and tracks so long as
the tyres could cut down to something they could take a grip on. We
actually had some taller narrower tyres with studs in for the front
when there was ice under the snow . . . made for hairy descents!
never did persuade anyone to fit the back out as well!

Lurch

"Budgie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Blippie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hi, my Freelander TD4 just about squeezes 40mph on lots of short, mixed
> runs.
>
> Many a true word . . .
>
> Budgie
>
>
>
>
It needs looking at if it will only do 40 mph.

OK I take all these points about being able to get by with a "normal" car
but after the last couple of days of snow up here we are even more convinced
of the need (or at least desirability) of as many driven wheels as possible
and lots of clearance. Getting back into the village last night was a white
knuckle ride. Blowing snow reduced visibility to a few yards but it's up
hill into the village and with a good six inches of chopped up powder and
only two driven wheels (with an open differential) the only option was to
keep the speed up and just hope that a) we didn't bottom out on the pile of
snow in the centre of the road an b) there was nothing comming the other
way. Meanwhile our neighbours with their Freelander were happily popping out
for a curry since they could go as slow as they liked on the hill without
fear of loosing grip. The local police were also saying that you should
only attempt the local roads if you had four wheel drive, which much count
for something.

So I'd still be interested to hear which of my original three (Rav4,
Freelander or X-trail) would be best in the snow. Somebody suggested X-trail
but didn't explain why. Since it is the only one of the three with a
reactive style system (i.e. mainly FWD until some slippage is detected) I
would have expected it to be the worst. Surely it is best to prevent wheels
spinning in the snow rather than waiting until they do (and start digging
themselves in) before transferring power to the rear.

I'm also not clear on the compromises that we would have to make for the
rest of the year if we did go down the soft-roader route. Putting a RAV4
D-4D (for example) up against our current Mazda 323, the RAV has 10mpg
better fuel economy, 20,000 mile as opposed to 9,000 mile service intervals
and lower overall service costs over three years (and 60,000 miles). Plus
the engine should last longer. So what do we have to loose?

Cheers,

Andy

On 25-Feb-2004, "Blippie" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi, my Freelander TD4 just about squeezes 40mph on lots of short, mixed
> runs.
>

Thanks.

> Boot is terrifically small, though.

Yes that does seem to be a problem with all three. The X-trail seats
apparantly fold flat and the Rav ones tumble forwards. But that's no use if
you need to carry people in the back, even if they are small people in our
case But then a bigger boot means a longer car, which is less convenient
around town. So I'm wondering whether it isn't better to have a compact car
for evey day use and stick a roofbox on when you travel. Easier to lock
stuff out of sight with a roof box as well. Just a thought.

By the way, can you fit a (road) bike in the boot of any of these soft
roaders ?

Cheers,

Andy

hello
have you thought about getting a GRAND VITARA? you have the 4wd and the
space? the new GV XL7 is about the same size of a disco land rover. just a
idea

james

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK I take all these points about being able to get by with a "normal" car
> but after the last couple of days of snow up here we are even more
convinced
> of the need (or at least desirability) of as many driven wheels as
possible
> and lots of clearance. Getting back into the village last night was a
white
> knuckle ride. Blowing snow reduced visibility to a few yards but it's up
> hill into the village and with a good six inches of chopped up powder and
> only two driven wheels (with an open differential) the only option was to
> keep the speed up and just hope that a) we didn't bottom out on the pile
of
> snow in the centre of the road an b) there was nothing comming the other
> way. Meanwhile our neighbours with their Freelander were happily popping
out
> for a curry since they could go as slow as they liked on the hill without
> fear of loosing grip. The local police were also saying that you should
> only attempt the local roads if you had four wheel drive, which much count
> for something.
>
> So I'd still be interested to hear which of my original three (Rav4,
> Freelander or X-trail) would be best in the snow. Somebody suggested
X-trail
> but didn't explain why. Since it is the only one of the three with a
> reactive style system (i.e. mainly FWD until some slippage is detected) I
> would have expected it to be the worst. Surely it is best to prevent
wheels
> spinning in the snow rather than waiting until they do (and start digging
> themselves in) before transferring power to the rear.
>
> I'm also not clear on the compromises that we would have to make for the
> rest of the year if we did go down the soft-roader route. Putting a RAV4
> D-4D (for example) up against our current Mazda 323, the RAV has 10mpg
> better fuel economy, 20,000 mile as opposed to 9,000 mile service
intervals
> and lower overall service costs over three years (and 60,000 miles). Plus
> the engine should last longer. So what do we have to loose?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:15:26 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>Yes that does seem to be a problem with all three. The X-trail seats
>apparantly fold flat and the Rav ones tumble forwards. But that's no use if
>you need to carry people in the back, even if they are small people in our
>case But then a bigger boot means a longer car, which is less convenient
>around town. So I'm wondering whether it isn't better to have a compact car
>for evey day use and stick a roofbox on when you travel. Easier to lock
>stuff out of sight with a roof box as well. Just a thought.

I've thought about the roofbox. But the problem for me would be that
I've got an automatic garage door, and I can just imagine me
forgetting that the roofbox in on top when I come home from a hard day
at the office, with obvious results

PoP

-----

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On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:37:44 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>So I'd still be interested to hear which of my original three (Rav4,
>Freelander or X-trail) would be best in the snow. Somebody suggested X-trail
>but didn't explain why. Since it is the only one of the three with a
>reactive style system (i.e. mainly FWD until some slippage is detected) I
>would have expected it to be the worst. Surely it is best to prevent wheels
>spinning in the snow rather than waiting until they do (and start digging
>themselves in) before transferring power to the rear.

As I understand it the X-Trail has 3 settings - 2 wheel drive,
automatic 4 wheel when it is required (which you describe), and
permanently enabled 4 wheel drive. With the latter the 4 wheel drive
is enabled all the time and is not affected by any auto-pilot.

The Freelander has permanent 4 wheel drive, the back wheels being
driven by a viscous coupling.

The RAV4 just looks ugly (that should start a flame war ).

PoP

-----

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If it helps, I have a Freelander TD4 Auto which gives reasonable economy
(34+ on a run/30mpg on work commute).

The viscous coupling directs the drive without intervention and I live on an
estate with a 1:8 hill to ascend. The lastest weather has been a
disappointment 'cos even when the road was pretty much iced over, it just
went up the hill with no drama, and I wanted a bit of fun! It also has
traction control (operated via the ABS) but so far I couldn't tell you
whether it works because it hasn't come on. Hill Descent (also uses ABS)
works fine, but to be fair I only used it to check that it worked.

Boot space is fine for me and missus and when my folks broke down during a
weekend in the lakes, they had to hitch a ride in my sisters Zafira. This
meant all they had to use the 3rd row of seats and all the luggage (plus
ours, my sisters, buggies for the kids etc) had to come home with us. Took
it all no problem.

Downside is reliability. Mine's never failed to get me where I need to be
but it has had a crank sensor failure, which stopped it starting when warm
and alarmingly a full sensor failure which caused it to drop from 30 mph to
the crawl speed (my dealer had never seen this before and it only happened
once !). All done under warranty as it's 12 months old.

Previously owned a Rocsta (don't go there) Vitara and the Grand Vitara -
latter 2 were okay but the transfer box confused the missus which left the
risk of transmission wind-up when she hit the tarmac. Freelander is the
best and most fun, but expensive compared to others.

I don't know anyone that owns one, but is the Renault Scenic 4WD a contender
?

2002 TD4 ES Auto.



I did use the Hill Descent Control once just to show my missus that you can
take your feet off the pedals and leave the car to it !
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK I take all these points about being able to get by with a "normal" car
> but after the last couple of days of snow up here we are even more
convinced
> of the need (or at least desirability) of as many driven wheels as
possible
> and lots of clearance. Getting back into the village last night was a
white
> knuckle ride. Blowing snow reduced visibility to a few yards but it's up
> hill into the village and with a good six inches of chopped up powder and
> only two driven wheels (with an open differential) the only option was to
> keep the speed up and just hope that a) we didn't bottom out on the pile
of
> snow in the centre of the road an b) there was nothing comming the other
> way. Meanwhile our neighbours with their Freelander were happily popping
out
> for a curry since they could go as slow as they liked on the hill without
> fear of loosing grip. The local police were also saying that you should
> only attempt the local roads if you had four wheel drive, which much count
> for something.
>
> So I'd still be interested to hear which of my original three (Rav4,
> Freelander or X-trail) would be best in the snow. Somebody suggested
X-trail
> but didn't explain why. Since it is the only one of the three with a
> reactive style system (i.e. mainly FWD until some slippage is detected) I
> would have expected it to be the worst. Surely it is best to prevent
wheels
> spinning in the snow rather than waiting until they do (and start digging
> themselves in) before transferring power to the rear.
>
> I'm also not clear on the compromises that we would have to make for the
> rest of the year if we did go down the soft-roader route. Putting a RAV4
> D-4D (for example) up against our current Mazda 323, the RAV has 10mpg
> better fuel economy, 20,000 mile as opposed to 9,000 mile service
intervals
> and lower overall service costs over three years (and 60,000 miles). Plus
> the engine should last longer. So what do we have to loose?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:22:34 -0000, "R101" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I did use the Hill Descent Control once just to show my missus that you can
>take your feet off the pedals and leave the car to it !

I have to admit that keeping hold of the steering wheel to point it in
the right direction is a good idea though. The HDC isn't a total
driver replacement

PoP

-----

My published email address probably won't work. If
you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk

I apologise for the additional effort, however the
level of unsolicited email I receive makes it
impossible to advertise my real email address!

lol, nah my missus thinks the kerb is a guide rail. Thank goodness for
proper tyres, mate of mine just buckled his allow slipping a Renault Laguna
into the kerb entering the office car park <ouch>

Saw a nice look on a BMW 5-series drivers face when I came downhill on a
sharp left bend just as he'd gone sideways - I was being relatively sensible
but the council hadn't gritted our roads. HDC worked like a dream and the
steering wheel is, on balance, a useful bit of kit.

Anyone noticed that Land Rovers drive much better in the snow ?

Cheers.


"PoP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:22:34 -0000, "R101" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I did use the Hill Descent Control once just to show my missus that you
can
> >take your feet off the pedals and leave the car to it !
>
> I have to admit that keeping hold of the steering wheel to point it in
> the right direction is a good idea though. The HDC isn't a total
> driver replacement
>
> PoP
>
> -----
>
> My published email address probably won't work. If
> you need to contact me please submit your comments
> via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk
>
> I apologise for the additional effort, however the
> level of unsolicited email I receive makes it
> impossible to advertise my real email address!

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> So I'd still be interested to hear which of my original three (Rav4,
> Freelander or X-trail) would be best in the snow. Somebody suggested
X-trail
> but didn't explain why. Since it is the only one of the three with a
> reactive style system (i.e. mainly FWD until some slippage is detected) I
> would have expected it to be the worst. Surely it is best to prevent
wheels
> spinning in the snow rather than waiting until they do (and start digging
> themselves in) before transferring power to the rear.
>
> I'm also not clear on the compromises that we would have to make for the
> rest of the year if we did go down the soft-roader route. Putting a RAV4
> D-4D (for example) up against our current Mazda 323, the RAV has 10mpg
> better fuel economy, 20,000 mile as opposed to 9,000 mile service
intervals
> and lower overall service costs over three years (and 60,000 miles). Plus
> the engine should last longer. So what do we have to loose?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
For Gods sake you do not need to convince this group of the need for a 4x4.
Practicably nobody need a 4x4. Any more than they need Lotus Elise.



There is no real difference between any softroader. Go out and test drive
one or two of the modals you like the look of. In normal conditions none of
them will perform or handle as well as your Mazda. If after driving them
around you feel you can live with the 4x4 experience. Go buy the one you
like the most and enjoy it.



Personally I would not swap my TD5 Disco for any "normal" car.



C C