Auto box overdrive??

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Tried that. Not at 40mph though. Low box first gear. 2000 rpm - engage lock. felt it cut in. 5 seconds later M and S flashing. This was not because the engine was going to stall. There was plenty of rpm. Any ideas? I'm back to my current detection theory. Might try putting a bulb or somthing in the circuit? Any other ideas out there?
 
Tried that. Not at 40mph though. Low box first gear. 2000 rpm - engage lock. felt it cut in. 5 seconds later M and S flashing. This was not because the engine was going to stall. There was plenty of rpm. Any ideas? I'm back to my current detection theory. Might try putting a bulb or somthing in the circuit? Any other ideas out there?


Sure ... but NOT low box, and 3 mph.

I suggest you get on the road, over 30 mph and try it.

Then try over 40 mph.

It probably knows that it is locked up at too low a speed, and to PREVENT DAMAGE from excess torque on engine braking or to reduce the risk of over-speeding the engine, it throws a wobbly an put lights on.

You may be closer to a solution than you think.

CharlesY
 
The application of this that I am after is to improve engine braking. I have gone as far as to design and build a circuit that will implement an interlock such that the TCC can only be engaged if in LOW First and drops out if you push either of the cruise control buttons.

the M and S lights I think mean limp home mode. but that limits you to 2 and 3rd gear. I'm not convinced it changed gear from 1st to 2nd. If it did then it did it very smoothly with the TCC engaged.

What I really need to know is how the ecu/tcu knows there is a fault?
 
I've skimmed through a lot of the thread, but there seem to be a few notionally related questions here, and a lot of in depth technical response that's sort of answering something a tad different....

Right; first off, the Torque Converter 'lock up' speed isn't road speed dependant, its engine speed and load dependant.

On the RRC it locks at roughly 2,200rpm under normal load, which equates to the 55mph in top gear, on a four speed ZF, through the RRC's Borg X-fer. Lower reduction offered by the LT230 on the Dizzy would make that 52mph in that car.

The ZF four speed has a 'direct drive' 4th gear, giving no reduction, making the box a lot more efficient, as there's no power going through cogs or clutches, when locked out in top.

The 2,200rpm 'latch' is anoying in normal driving, and I find particularly so when towing and trying to hold a steady 55mph on a long run, where it's constantly 'shunting' between slip and lock out whenever you come to a gradient or such.

For more 'normal' driving, where that same hunting problem would manifest itself trying to stay inside a 50mph limit.....

Try selecting 3rd rather than D on the selector.

By holding the box back to 3rd, it engages a slightly different set of shift points.

Round town or variable speed limit roads, you'll find that the car behaves a lot more responsively, and drives a lot better, than leaving it in D.

And with the box held in 3rd, it wont try shifting or be stirring the Torque converter, trying to hold 4th with slip, it will be locked out, working slightly more efficiently in 3rd.

Suggestion about adding an Over Drive, with an auto wont drop the revs back in top as it would with a manual, and I dont think that would actually be helpful any way.

IF you were to add an OD, all that would do, when engaged is raise the final drive ratio.

So, when you were in that 52mph shift hunt situation, engaging the OD would result in the engine seeing a higher load, and the gearbox trying to find more reduction to provide the demanded motive force.

In effect, it would simply make the Torque Converter slip more (Box would see the OD like it would a steep hill), and lift the change point to something like 73mph (If its a 25% OD ratio), which would mean that the box wouldn't 'lock out' at legal speeds.

So you'd not 'see' any real benefit from knocking back the revs via an OD unit, as the auto-trans would simply hold the lower gears longer.

Given the efficiency advantage of the ZF's lock-out 4th, I think it would probably be a negative advantage, and take a lot of faffing with the shift pattern to make work comfortably.

Which brings me to the other suggestion about knocking the revs back for 'efficiency'...... that bit of 'wisdom' works well on a naturally aspirated diesel or petrol engine.

But, on a Turbo diesel, the engine is actually working at its most efficient at higher revs when the turbo is most able to deliver useful boost.

THE most efficient engine speed occurs where peak torque is made, which corresponds to the engine delivering the greatest cylinder pressure from the charge going into it......

On a TDi that is almost EXACTLY at 2,200rpm where the Torque converter locks out!

Making the engine 'labour' lower down particularly at part throttle is NOT actually saving you any fuel, as you are forcing the engine to work in a region of its operating range well outside optimum.

As said, peak efficiency occurs where you are getting the greatest combustion pressure, and is directly proportional to engine torque.

Look at the TDi torque curve and the peak is at around 2,200rpm, and tails off beyond that.

HOWEVER, between tick-over of 500rpm and the peak torque of 2,200 the torque curve ramps from almost nothing, incredibly steeply.

Ie; the 'efficiency' of the engine, is worst at tickover, gets better very quickly, the harder you rev it, and the drop off, going up the rev range is actually less than the drop off coming down it.

In short, Turbo Diesels, and particularly TDi's actually work better the harder you 'thrash' them!

So, as far as the original question is concerned, and the 'annoyance' of box hovering with the TC slipping at around 52mph in top, and the desire to get it to lock out and stop slushing, and to try and find a bit more ecconomy;

Answer, as suggested, to my tutored mind would seem to be simply, leave it in 3rd.

The TDi is not a refined engine, and might sound and feel better making it labour at lower revs, but for what you want to achieve, making the motor more comfortable to drive and finding a little added ecconomy, use 3rd, let the engine rev, and tolerate the clatter.

As for engine braking, long decents and heavy trailers.........

Auto's dont have the engine braking of a manual, BUT, they do have engine braking.

If you are suffering from the trailer 'pushing' the car on long decents, even holding the box in 1 or 2, then my first suggestion is to look at the trailer over ride brakes!

As the trailer catches up with the car, the brakes should be being applied, and the only extra force on the tow hitch should be the spring force from the over ride return spring.... a few pounds force, not 'tons'!

If you are used to driving a manual, and particularly have become used to a diesel manual, and relying on the imense amount of engine braking they can offer, then I can easily understand how the lack of engine braking with an auto may be disconcerting.

Recently was helping a freind fettle thier 90 for its MOT and sorting out some brake problems.... as in they didn't HAVE any, that they hadn't even noticed, for the simple reason they'd become so used to using the engine braking, they rarely used them above walking pace!

Following them about, red lights on the back hardly ever come on in normal driving.

With an auto you have to use the left hand piano pedal, but as comment I noted, that is actually NOT a bad thing, and it does relieve the drive line of a lot of strain.

They do still offer engine braking, just not in such bucket load quantities.

In normal driving, you can usually spot an auto without having to look at the badge on the back becouse of how often the brake lights are on, however, once you have got used to it, you dont HAVE to be brake dependant.

People are often dont realise my cars are all auto, becouse the red lamps dont shine as often as many fitted to vehicles with manual boxes.

And in a trip not long ago round the lanes of the Welsh mountains, with a convoy of Disco's & Defenders there were two of us with auto's, myself with a V8 classic and a freind with a 300TDi Auto, and our brake lamps were less lit than many of the manuals!

They DO work, but you do have to 'adjust' to the way they work.
 
Tried flipping the switch at 50 mph (when TCC was already engaged) left it for 1 0seconds and put it back, No flashly lights. - No suprise really - just thought I'd update you.

I want engine braking on steep descents in low first - just in case that was not clear
 
Teflon;

Drove home tonight using 3 rather than D in all the 30 and 40 limits. Not sure I could tell the TC lock coming in.

Nearer home I stuck in in 2 - now I think I could tell it was on, but still didn't do exactly what I expected.


And if the car is better in 3 than 4, why didn't LR set it not to change up until later?

Although, I didn't check, but I'm sure my handbook says something about using 3 round town
 
And if the car is better in 3 than 4, why didn't LR set it not to change up until later?

Becouse when designing a car you have a whole shed load of compromises to decide on, and its a stupid one, but often 'silly' things like the lock out point are shifted away from optimum to suit standards or regulations.

For example, fueling maps are often set lean at the exact engine speed standards prescribe for emmissions tests, causing a 'flat spot' in the power delivery.

Exhausts are similarly 'tweeked' to have a bit more effect at the engine speed or under the conditions nose emmission standards prescribe for the tests.

In this case though, the 52/55mph 'lock-out' on the Torque converter in 4th is to suit the long range 'highway' fuel consumption standards.

Sounds perverse having just said that the engine is should be working more efficiently if you rev it, but I also said that the TC lock was almost exactly co-incident with the peak torque and peak efficiency of the engine.

Standards for 'Highway' cycle ecconomy testing, basically stick a car on a flat oval, run it up very slowly to 56mph and hold it there for as long as a set amount of fuel will keep it going.

For that ONE test, they wanted maximum efficiency, so no slip in the TC, box in straight through drive in top, engine as close as practically possible to peak torque, multiplying the optimums.

GREAT for the ecconomy tests, but not so great in the real world where cars dont hold an exact constant speed on an exactly level smooth track!

If it wasn't for that test, they probably would have set the box to hold third longer and the torque converter to lock at a slightly higher speed....

But in thier ranking of priorities, getting a better MPG figure in all the magazines, outweighed the slight annoyance the settings might cause real world buyers!

Although, I didn't check, but I'm sure my handbook says something about using 3 round town

Yes it does.

When Ford introduced the MK4 four speed auto, they actually marked the selector 1-2-D-X (I cant do a reverse image D!) Other manufacturers marked 4th OD for 'Over-Drive' or even 'E' for ecconomy.

To encourage drivers to use 3rd as thier main driving gear, and only select 4th for 'hghway' driving at higher speeds, to avoid the box hunting between 3rd & 4th under more variable conditions.

Its a tip I've suggested to a lot of auto drivers, who've tried it and often completely revised thier opinion of auto-boxes.

Most recently, my mother, who's been ardently anti-auto, was recently left having to drive one for some months, complaining bitterly that it made lots of noise but had no go, had to confess after I put it into 3 for her, that maybe she was wrong!

Main thing in her case was the way the torque converter works, and the engine reving up when she put her foot down and the car not accelerating in direct proportion to the engine noise!

Took a lot to actually convince her that the engine revving up was getting to region of the rev range it was making a lot more power, and the torque converter converting those revs to motive force was putting a lot more force to the wheels than a labouring manual or a revving one with a slipping clutch would, making the car actually accelerate a lot harder than the equivilent manual.....

Jaguar actualld proved it back in the early 70's with an E-type; they got a sports car racer of the day in the drivers seat of the manual, and put his wife in the drivers seat of the auto, and stuck them on the drag strip...... the wife won!
 
Well i drove to work using 3 instead of D most of the way - it definitely drives better, but it still feels like I'm sucking the tank dry too quick. We'll have to trust you on that one for now ;)


So with your obviously much more experience of autos than me, when do you use 3 instead of D.

Clearly you can't be too specific, but rough guidance.

This is my first ever auto, and it's a LR, so I'm still learning how to get the best out of it.
 
Try this when your towing.Leave it in 2 when starting off then when you get up to 35 mph change up to 3 , then leave it in 3rd until you get up to 50 mph then into drive.So around town you would stay in 3rd and only into drive on faster roads. I tow my caravan this way and Im getting 23.5 mpg on long run.Try it and see.
 
The autoboxes on the DiscoI and DiscoII operate significantly differently.

1. With DiscoI you only ever achieve TC lock-up in 4th gear (at 52mph), on DiscoII you can achieve TC lock-up in 3rd (45mph) as well as 4th (52mph).

Both of these speeds are dependant on light throttle positions.

2. The actual gear changing is different between the two 'boxes as well. With the TDi box it uses cable operated kick-down which means you have to give the throttle quite a prod before the normal low rev change points are altered.

With DiscoII the change points are electronically controlled and feel much more 'intuative'.

Having owned both versions I would say the electronic box of the DiscoII is by far more refined and pleasant to drive.
 
Drove home tonight using 3 rather than D in all the 30 and 40 limits. Not sure I could tell the TC lock coming in.

Nearer home I stuck in in 2 - now I think I could tell it was on, but still didn't do exactly what I expected.

The autoboxes on the DiscoI and DiscoII operate significantly differently.

1. With DiscoI you only ever achieve TC lock-up in 4th gear (at 52mph)


Ah - that might explain it then. At least for my DiscoI
 
A 'rough' guide? Geez, tough one.

OK, well using 3rd as your 'driving' gear gives the more responsive shift points.

So, I guess, Use 3rd anywhere you might want better response, and or the box is likely to be doing a lot of shifting.

So round town, on a twisty road or in stop-start traffic.

Use 4th when you aren't in such a hurry, or on more open roads, by-passes and motorways.

I've not driven much more than round the block in Disco auto's, so I cant really give anything particularly specific.

I do know that the TDi works better when thrashed though, from driving the manual!

And from years driving petrol Auto's (I actually learned to drive in Canada, ghrumph many years ago! Taking my lessons in the defacto-standard auto), I know if you want to get the best out of an auto-box, you do have to work it!

Best I can offer is to say play with it, and see what it does!

Try driving it like a 'clutchless' manual!

Ie holding it in 1st to pull away and force shifting when you want it to, rather than letting the hydraulics do it.

(My Civic actually wont let you hold it 'all the way' it will over ride you and shift up anywhay when you hit the rev-limiter, which I found disconcerting! But be mindful, I dont think the ZF does that, so you can max it out, and get a big 'jolt' when you shift up!)

Force shift it down a cog for corners on a twisty road, to get some engine braking from it, and more 'instant' acceleration as you transition back onto the power, rather than letting the car free wheel and the box do its little gear shunt as you go from a trailing throttle to putting it on demand.

Round town, in rush hour traffic where you are racing to 30 and back to zero, you might like to try holding it in 1st or 2nd; again, letting the engine rev out, and getting better 'response' and more engine braking from it.

And shunting around car-parks and the like, using just 1st rather than D.

Basically, you need to just 'play' and get a feel for the box, and what works, what doesn't, what feels best, what you like, and what you dont.

Then, when you've done all that, come back to being lazy, becouse most of the time its not worth the bother, and leaving it in D most of the time..... using 3 when popping to town, and only playing with force shifting when you have a real need for it.

Like towing, or in a hurry on a twisty lane, or something like that.

One thing that I would say though, is that if you are planning an over-take, and this is probably more useful for a TDi, given you need to give them written notice you want them to pick up thier skirts and hussle anyway, 'pre-shifting' down a gear or two, in anticipation of flooring the throttle, gives a much faster and smoother response than relying on the kick-down.

Basically the thing shifts when you tell it to, rather than waiting for the pedal to get to the floor, the linkage clicking open a valve, then the mechanism trying to decide how many gears to shift, before giving drive; its already there!

Only thing about that one, is, just like driving a manual, you need your hand on the shift padel and be ready to force the upchange, or you can get a burst of acceleration, but hit the rev-limiter before you've completed the over-take, which on the TDi I'd imagine is probably quite a lot more likely, than with a V8 that can rev to over 5K and still be pulling, where the TDi will be running out of puff at little more than 4!

Best I can offer, really.
 
I think that was plenty.

I was expecting more of a "I use 3 in town and D on 50+ roads" or something ;)

I must admit, I tried all of those, and then just went back to driving in D but moaning about it not locking the TC.
 
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