ATF leak from front of autobox, input shaft seal?

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Stanleysteamer

Stanleysteamer

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East Dorset
Heartbreak Hotel here.
Having just had my D2 welded up, I discussed the ATF leak which is weeping from between the torque convertor housing and the autobox.
The 4x4 specialist tells me it is most likely to be the seal on the input shaft, where the bearing wears," the shaft takes the weight of the torque convertor which means it moves down against the seal which therefore leaks from its top." This makes sense to me, who knows fu ck all about autoboxes, (hate them really) although I have stripped and rebuilt standard manual gearboxes.

He says decent secondhand boxes are rare as rocking horse sh1t and to get the box rebuilt would be £1800 by a bloke he knows and recommends. The value of the vehicle obviously.

So my questions are:
Is he likely to be right?
Is there no way of just replacing the input shaft bearing?
Would there be any point in just replacing the seal, and if so how long would it last?
Or any other ideas?

Have even thought of replacing it with a manual, although I realise this would be quite a lot of work and would mean a wretched DMF! Yuk, yuk yuk!
Looking forward to reading your ideas.:(:(:(:(:(
 
Stanleysteamer said:
Heartbreak Hotel here.
Having just had my D2 welded up, I discussed the ATF leak which is weeping from between the torque convertor housing and the autobox.
The 4x4 specialist tells me it is most likely to be the seal on the input shaft, where the bearing wears," the shaft takes the weight of the torque convertor which means it moves down against the seal which therefore leaks from its top." This makes sense to me, who knows fu ck all about autoboxes, (hate them really) although I have stripped and rebuilt standard manual gearboxes.

He says decent secondhand boxes are rare as rocking horse sh1t and to get the box rebuilt would be £1800 by a bloke he knows and recommends. The value of the vehicle obviously.

So my questions are:
Is he likely to be right?
Is there no way of just replacing the input shaft bearing?
Would there be any point in just replacing the seal, and if so how long would it last?
Or any other ideas?

Have even thought of replacing it with a manual, although I realise this would be quite a lot of work and would mean a wretched DMF! Yuk, yuk yuk!
Looking forward to reading your ideas.:(:(:(:(:(
Click to expand...
its unusual for that seal to go t/c is bolted to the drive plate and supported by a bush in the box, the bellhousing bolts are known to become loose letting pump housing leak.but if you can get box out both jobs are easy
 
jamesmartin said:
its unusual for that seal to go t/c is bolted to the drive plate and supported by a bush in the box, the bellhousing bolts are known to become loose letting pump housing leak.but if you can get box out both jobs are easy
Click to expand...
This is what I was hoping and I did think that the idea of the torque converter "hanging off" the input shaft wasn't going to be quite right. Spigot shaft bearing has to take some of the weight surely. I can't get the box out myself, I have to do everything on a gravel drive and I am getting up against it with time.
So, could you tell me exactly what to tell the mechanic to do and then I can get on with the job. you said "both jobs are easy" could you tell me which are the two jobs? Is one of them the input shaft seal, to the gearbox, and the other?
Wish i lived a bit nearer you, if so I'd pop over and get you to do it! Would also give me a chance to visit my bro in Hull whose wife died two weeks ago and i could have a look at your smallholding! Trouble is the blessed MOT is looming soonish and then we are off to France for our last trouble free visit.
 
Stanleysteamer said:
This is what I was hoping and I did think that the idea of the torque converter "hanging off" the input shaft wasn't going to be quite right. Spigot shaft bearing has to take some of the weight surely. I can't get the box out myself, I have to do everything on a gravel drive and I am getting up against it with time.
So, could you tell me exactly what to tell the mechanic to do and then I can get on with the job. you said "both jobs are easy" could you tell me which are the two jobs? Is one of them the input shaft seal, to the gearbox, and the other?
Wish i lived a bit nearer you, if so I'd pop over and get you to do it! Would also give me a chance to visit my bro in Hull whose wife died two weeks ago and i could have a look at your smallholding! Trouble is the blessed MOT is looming soonish and then we are off to France for our last trouble free visit.
Click to expand...
remove box with torque converter,stand box on rear end of transfer box,lift out t/c and check the tightness of bell housing bolts, if loose remove bell housing and pump housing replace gasket and refit pump housing carefully ensuring all plates line up and housing drops down fully,if its seal prise out and replace check bush whilst seal is out
 
jamesmartin said:
remove box with torque converter,stand box on rear end of transfer box,lift out t/c and check the tightness of bell housing bolts, if loose remove bell housing and pump housing replace gasket and refit pump housing carefully ensuring all plates line up and housing drops down fully,if its seal prise out and replace check bush whilst seal is out
Click to expand...
Thanks ever so much James. Didn't understand all of that as I know so little about autoboxes. Have never seen inside one so have never seen a pump housing or a pump or any plates. Will the bush be obvious to the mechanic? So sorry to keep pestering you with these questions. But at least the idea of bell housing bolts being loose and a gasket needing replacing makes sense to me.
I'll do some research and have a look to see if I can find an exploded diagram. Then I might understand all this. If I had more than a gravel drive it sounds as if I might have a go at doing this myself, but I think it is probably far too heavy for me without a gearbox jack etc. Mechanic says it is possible to remove tranny box then T/C and gearbox but again I'd need to be on a hard smoothish surface. Biggest gearbox I have removed on my own so far, (with a small trolley jack) was an old BMW 528i series one. But that was in my garage (concrete floor) and Discos are too tall to get into there. Also I obviously don't have a 4 or even a 2 post lift.
After I've done a couple of other jobs on it, and some more research so I look a bit more like i know what I'm talking about, I'll take it back to him to get this done. I am happy that you do not seem to think any bearings need replacing.
Again. Many thanks.
:):):):):)
Stan
 
If you can rebuild a manual box an Auto is a piece of pish..

In my mind atleast..

My P38 has the same issue..

however my 190k D2 doesn't!

odd.
 
images

upload_2020-2-9_23-30-46.jpeg

behind bell housing with the red plastic cap is the pump housing behind that the main case with all the clutches and epicyclic gear sets, if its stood upright ie bell housing pointing up removing bell housing and then pump housing if necessary means none of the internals will drop out but stay in place
second pic shows inside bell housing with t/c removed brown seal can be seen inside the pump housing behind that is the bush,seal can be changed as is bush needs bell housing and pump pulling off, you can remove box and ;leave t/c on the engine but its bad practice ads t/c must be fully fitted to gear box before box is refitted to engine,that is vital
fitting t/c togearbox is easy if you use 2 m10 long bolts screwed into t/c fastening lugs,gearbox is upright,as you can see theres 3 alignments the 2 splines and the notches for pump drive
on a hard surface an engine crane and chain lifting through tunnel is a good way to do the job safely,its also useful to be able to drop the box|(when mounts removed)to reach top cooler pipe and top bell housing bolts,then raise it to do the sides and bottom bolts
if your careful about lifting pump housing off and ensure center splined shaft doesnt come away too you dont have to worry about aligning clutch plates
 
Last edited:
Henry_b said:
If you can rebuild a manual box an Auto is a piece of pish..

In my mind atleast..

My P38 has the same issue..

however my 190k D2 doesn't!

odd.
Click to expand...
If I had one to play with and was built like the hulk so I could take it off a bit more easily, I'd be a lot more prepared to have a try, but I understand they are heavier even with an engine crane through the console place. There is a msssive difference to me between a "hobby" vehicle where I work on it with no time constraints and one I absolutely have to fix and get running reliably again in a short period of time. Which sadly is the latter case.
Also I understand that the need for precision and the risk of losing tiny parts, springs, ball bearings, etc from the valve chest is quite high and you need to know what you are doing. Ordinary gearboxes have some of these too, detent springs are an obvious example and, yes, I coped with them. But the financial risk as well as the risk of malfunction is something I am unable to take at the mo.
Maybe once I get my other Disco(s) back on the road I'll be able to do this. But thanks for the encouragement!
Best of luck with your P38!
 
Stanleysteamer said:
If I had one to play with and was built like the hulk so I could take it off a bit more easily, I'd be a lot more prepared to have a try, but I understand they are heavier even with an engine crane through the console place. There is a msssive difference to me between a "hobby" vehicle where I work on it with no time constraints and one I absolutely have to fix and get running reliably again in a short period of time. Which sadly is the latter case.
Also I understand that the need for precision and the risk of losing tiny parts, springs, ball bearings, etc from the valve chest is quite high and you need to know what you are doing. Ordinary gearboxes have some of these too, detent springs are an obvious example and, yes, I coped with them. But the financial risk as well as the risk of malfunction is something I am unable to take at the mo.
Maybe once I get my other Disco(s) back on the road I'll be able to do this. But thanks for the encouragement!
Best of luck with your P38!
Click to expand...
yes theres a bit with fullly rebuilding an auto,but your issue shouldnt involve getting into that territory,if box is stood on end before removing bell housing bolts
 
jamesmartin said:
images

View attachment 200276
behind bell housing with the red plastic cap is the pump housing behind that the main case with all the clutches and epicyclic gear sets, if its stood upright ie bell housing pointing up removing bell housing and then pump housing if necessary means none of the internals will drop out but stay in place
second pic shows inside bell housing with t/c removed brown seal can be seen inside the pump housing behind that is the bush,seal can be changed as is bush needs bell housing and pump pulling off, you can remove box and ;leave t/c on the engine but its bad practice ads t/c must be fully fitted to gear box before box is refitted to engine,that is vital
fitting t/c togearbox is easy if you use 2 m10 long bolts screwed into t/c fastening lugs,gearbox is upright,as you can see theres 3 alignments the 2 splines and the notches for pump drive
on a hard surface an engine crane and chain lifting through tunnel is a good way to do the job safely,its also useful to be able to drop the box|(when mounts removed)to reach top cooler pipe and top bell housing bolts,then raise it to do the sides and bottom bolts
if your careful about lifting pump housing off and ensure center splined shaft doesnt come away too you dont have to worry about aligning clutch plates
Click to expand...
James, I cannot thank you enough for all the effort you have put into your replies to me, with this info I am a lot more confident that I will be able to get the local 4x4 guy to sort the problem out. If he can't do it, chickens out or whatever then I will at least know the limits of his knowledge and will be able to look for someone who can.
Knowledge is everything and I have already discovered that he pays a lot more attention to me now than he did when we first met due to my being able to do some of the stuff on the vehicle to help him and also through conversations about people we both know in the Land Rover world and things that are typical problems to do with Discos.
So this knowledge will really help even if I am unable to do it myself, though I can tell that you think I should be able to do it. Wish I wasn't going to be 65 on the 20th, that I had a load of time and at least a hardstanding outside the house!
I'll let everyone know how I get on eventually!
And thanks again James.:):):):)
 
Stanleysteamer said:
James, I cannot thank you enough for all the effort you have put into your replies to me, with this info I am a lot more confident that I will be able to get the local 4x4 guy to sort the problem out. If he can't do it, chickens out or whatever then I will at least know the limits of his knowledge and will be able to look for someone who can.
Knowledge is everything and I have already discovered that he pays a lot more attention to me now than he did when we first met due to my being able to do some of the stuff on the vehicle to help him and also through conversations about people we both know in the Land Rover world and things that are typical problems to do with Discos.
So this knowledge will really help even if I am unable to do it myself, though I can tell that you think I should be able to do it. Wish I wasn't going to be 65 on the 20th, that I had a load of time and at least a hardstanding outside the house!
I'll let everyone know how I get on eventually!
And thanks again James.:):):):)
Click to expand...
i wouldnt expect you to do it,but mechanic could get box out and you both have a look at the stood up box
 
jamesmartin said:
yes theres a bit with fullly rebuilding an auto,but your issue shouldnt involve getting into that territory,if box is stood on end before removing bell housing bolts
Click to expand...
I am pleased to see that you agree with the level of difficulty involved in this job. i.e that the bit I need to do ought not to be beyond me but that delving into the actual works would be a lot more challenging. There has to be a reason why ordinary gearbox specialists are not all auto specialists!:):)
 
jamesmartin said:
i wouldnt expect you to do it,but mechanic could get box out and you both have a look at the stood up box
Click to expand...
Maybe he'll be prepared to do that, maybe not, I only got him to do the first piece of work for me last week, before that we hardly met except once where he used his diagnostic and flogged me a secondhand half-shaft and hub. Other guys I know who do other stuff I have already worked with, but I am still feeling my way around how much he is prepared to have others/customers in his workshop and watching his work.
Anyway, I'll print stuff off so I can go and see him with it, show him pictures if necessary and see what he says. Only thing I can do. If he gets silly, I'll get it through the MOT, keep topping up the ATF, take it to France where I'll have more time and take it to a bloke I know there who will probably let me do this stuff with him or his mechanic. Also I'll have more time. Still no garage or hard standing at my place there, but again I might possibly be able to borrow a neighbour's place. Sh!t, I will not have my engine crane, will have to hire one!
Let's hope it doesn't get to that.
Thanks again, mate!:):):)
 
Stanleysteamer said:
I am pleased to see that you agree with the level of difficulty involved in this job. i.e that the bit I need to do ought not to be beyond me but that delving into the actual works would be a lot more challenging. There has to be a reason why ordinary gearbox specialists are not all auto specialists!:):)
Click to expand...
some where like me,ashcroft transmissions also do both including boxes like yours,autos allways were considered more scary , more recently boxes are so complex you get individual specialists,theres also the business model that says do few things well rather than jacks of all trades,also training
 
ronsealdeath said:
Call Ashcrofts, will supply what you need and provide good advice
Click to expand...
Weirdly, I mentioned Ashcrofts to the 4x4 specialist and he didn't have a good word for them. First time I had heard any criticism of them. So I got he to tell me why. Apparently they had sold him a couple of gearboxes that he said were "tight" (??) and that he felt he could not pass on to customers telling them to just drive them until they "loosened up" (?).
He says he drove one around himself for a long time, enough that he felt the box should have got better. Meantime he had been on the phone to them and they were not helpful. So in the end he drove the vehicle all the way to them and got them to drive it, at which point they agreed with him. But it left a nasty taste in his mouth and he won't deal with them anymore.
So, a weird one! Like saying Rolls Royce build carp cars! Don't understand it and I don't think it would put me off, but still braced me a bit!
 
Stanleysteamer said:
Weirdly, I mentioned Ashcrofts to the 4x4 specialist and he didn't have a good word for them. First time I had heard any criticism of them. So I got he to tell me why. Apparently they had sold him a couple of gearboxes that he said were "tight" (??) and that he felt he could not pass on to customers telling them to just drive them until they "loosened up" (?).
He says he drove one around himself for a long time, enough that he felt the box should have got better. Meantime he had been on the phone to them and they were not helpful. So in the end he drove the vehicle all the way to them and got them to drive it, at which point they agreed with him. But it left a nasty taste in his mouth and he won't deal with them anymore.
So, a weird one! Like saying Rolls Royce build carp cars! Don't understand it and I don't think it would put me off, but still braced me a bit!
Click to expand...

So he drove it around with no issues, and still wasn't happy?

I have met Ian Ashcroft, and been to his house, to pick up a gearbox in the early days, when he worked out of his garden shed.
His son has also been very helpful to me on the phone, and I have never had a problem with stuff I got from them.
 
Stanleysteamer said:
Weirdly, I mentioned Ashcrofts to the 4x4 specialist and he didn't have a good word for them. First time I had heard any criticism of them. So I got he to tell me why. Apparently they had sold him a couple of gearboxes that he said were "tight" (??) and that he felt he could not pass on to customers telling them to just drive them until they "loosened up" (?).
He says he drove one around himself for a long time, enough that he felt the box should have got better. Meantime he had been on the phone to them and they were not helpful. So in the end he drove the vehicle all the way to them and got them to drive it, at which point they agreed with him. But it left a nasty taste in his mouth and he won't deal with them anymore.
So, a weird one! Like saying Rolls Royce build carp cars! Don't understand it and I don't think it would put me off, but still braced me a bit!
Click to expand...
i can get some pics of a box with bell housing removed then pump housing,pics are easier to understand,if youd like
 
jamesmartin said:
i can get some pics of a box with bell housing removed then pump housing,pics are easier to understand,if youd like
Click to expand...
James you are such a gent. I keep feeling I'm being a pain.
If you really don't mind putting up a couple more pics of what you think would be useful then i can't say no but please don't put yourself to too much trouble.

As for the Ashcrofts thing, I really have no idea. When he said he drove it around, it wasn't with no trouble, he said he had to double-declutch to get it into gear, probably second i'd a thort. But what can I say? I never saw it or heard it.
Glad to hear others still rate them, as I would have done completely, which is why I was quite shocked at what he had to say.
But then a reputation takes a lifetime to build and can be lost in a few minutes. My brother, time served apprentice, could cut hair really well, except when he went for an interview and had to do a test head, his nerves always got the better of him and he fu cked it up. So he gave up and became a bus driver! Maybe the guy I was talking to just happened to get the one rogue box they ever did. Dunno. (Beginning to think I shouldn't have mentioned this, but then I am glad to get confirmation they are more than likely OK.):oops::(
 
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