Freelander 1 Anyone investigated 'clicking' starter solenoid - design problem??

td4van said:

Nodge - early Td4 all had the FBH as standard then for 2002MY the PTC heater was introduced to replace the FBH as standard and FBH was an option and standard on some higher specs

This strategy was continued until run out

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Interesting. I didn't realise the FBH become an option.
So as my 05 SE has a FBH. Does it also have the PTC? Or is the FBH in place of the PCT?

PTC or FBH is fitted from the factory - you won't have both

I assume the SE has heated front windscreen as it was grouped together with FBH as a winter pack

td4van said:

PTC or FBH is fitted from the factory - you won't have both

I assume the SE has heated front windscreen as it was grouped together with FBH as a winter pack

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Oh yes. HFS and FBH. I only considered cars fitted with the HFS.
So mine obviously had the winter pack option.
I did look at lots of FL1s before I got this one. Many didn't have the HFS, so I assume they also didn't have the FBH. Worth knowing. Thanks.

At various places in this thread it mentions 'Rave'. For those that don't know what it is, this is a workshop manual LR produced for Freelander - I believe for dealers to be able to maintain the vehicles.

Its invaluable in maintaining the cars and there is a thread here showing where it can be downloaded from...

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/rave-disk-maintenance-manual.260227/

There are full electrical diagrams in Rave, so it shows how all the components discussed in this thread are connected. My car is a '99, so I use the early Rave version. This also has pictures of all (or at least most) the electrical connectors in the car - so you can visualise what your looking for (or thinking about) and know where abouts in the car it is. I presume this is also in the later ones.

It also gives descriptions on the components this thread discusses, such as the starting and immobilisation systems, and how they work - or, to be more accurate, how they 'should' work

Hi all,
Ive been having some starting issues which have been discussed in a different forum.
Below is a transcript with the author and their comments, hope it helps............
Graybo9
Hi all,
I have looked in the threads and could only find an old one regarding this, but it provoked a good deal of discussion......!
I have a 2006 Freelander commercial, (no rear seats), when turning the key to start most of the time it will not for a while.
Basically just turn the key to hold in the start position and there is some clicking from under the dash, (roughly in the middle above the heater/audio controls), which is at different rates and intervals, it could be 2 seconds or 2 minutes, but will start, sometimes there is no clicking, will not turn over, the clicking will start and then turns over OK.
Its been described by the previous owner as a 'lazy key', which throws up different things on a search.
my question would be which part is likely to be failing, the coil around the barrel or the relay/immobiliser ecu? under the dash.

Nodge68

What model commercial is it. You've put it under the FL2 header. However a 2006 is more likely to be a FL1, which is a completely different vehicle.

Graybo9

Better late than never... the log book offers no useful info as there is no variant or type, the build plate has been replaced by a Land Rover special vehicles plate with a contract number, but the date is Feb 2006 so probably a FL1.
Based on the fact it's a 1, any ideas?

HIPPO

If the vin is SALLN... it's a Freelander 1. If SALFA... it's a Freelander 2.

Graybo9

Thanks all so far, looking at the logbook its a 1.
I'm sure its not the starter solenoid as the clicking is in the cabin, under the dash in the center of the upper part.
I like the idea of the push button to start, but does the immobaliser only stop the starter energising? are there any other spin offs?
If poss i would like to solve, but it doesn't seem the same as the previous threads.
Could it be the coil pick up around the ignition, or is there a relay that it goes to under the dash in the cabin?

Nodge68

The immobiliser could be causing your problem. There's been a run of them of late. GG linked a couple of recent threads.
The immobiliser also stops fuel from being injected, so bypassing the starting immobilisation doesn't compromise the security to much

GrumpyGel

I haven't looked into specifics, but there's all sorts of stuff in the cabin that can be switching - I'm not sure what is under control of the CCU and what's wired through the run/crank positions of the switch - but various stuff is disabled when the starter is energised then enabled once its not - it could even be your radio being switched on and off that is making the noise.

I would add your experience to the clicking starter solenoid thread listed above - it may provoke some ideas on there.

Andyfreelandy

Seeing as I started the drama of the other thread !! My investigation so far is as follows.
When correct key is inserted and turned to position 1, the immob checks key is correct and passes code to ECU to allow a start to proceed when the start position 3 is used. What I think you can hear is the immob relay clicking which indicated all is well up to that relay. The immob unit is mounted where you are hearing the click ! So - next step is to check feed to starter relay (R2 in engine bay under the plastic lift flap near passenger side). If no feed then you have a faulty relay in the immob unit or wiring fault. If relay is getting feed but starter not turning you have a starter relay or wiring fault in the remainder of the circuit.

Good luck - removing the immob unit looks tricky. But as GG suggests we need to merge the threads as this is all related to the 'clicking starter solenoid' thread

Graybo9

Thanks for the info,
the clicking is not consistent, when waiting for it to kick in sometimes its not there, sometimes the odd click, sometimes builds to a crescendo and it will start,
It would appear, based on the above, it is the relay at fault.
I will investigate and update.

GrumpyGel

It would be a good idea for you to download the Rave workshop manual. It describes all the starting components and where they are in the car. I've added a post to the clicking solenoid thread giving a bit more info and where to download it from.

Graybo9

Having now read the RAVE it appears to be the immobiliser ECU in the center of the dash which contains the starter relay. Although looks not to bad to replace as its a plug in unit there's a complicated coding system between it, the key and the vehicles ECU.
RAVE states that units will only be sold to authorised dealers and the factory has to pre-program it with the vehicles details before fitting so it will work in harmony with the other units.
Looks like I shall be turning to position 3 and waiting for it to kick in for a bit as may be a dealer only fix!

You could link it out.
The immobiliser is pretty easy to prove. The starter switch feeds 12 V crank signal to pin 8 of immobiliser ECU on the White/Red (WR). If the transponder says (CODE OK) the immobiliser ECU sends 12V down pin 7 on the Red/White (RW) to the starter relay.
So linking the W/R and R/W together at the immobiliser plug should allow the starter to crank. This will prove the relay in the immobiliser is working or not. If it proves the relay. Then someone with a reasonable knowledge of electronics could change the relay in the immobiliser.

Still looking for a circuit of the Immob ECU.
Want to identify which component(s) are responsible for failing to output with low voltage, but still crankable battery.

Anyone - or has anyone got a duff one that they are willing to donate to the cause ?!?!!? I can then trace out internal diagram and post it.

I'll also look at one is someone has got a duff one they want to send me. I'm sure that the problem is a simple relay with bad contacts. Easy enough to change, once the correct relay is found.

Maybe a bad relay, on mine the feed from the Immob ECU disappears when the battery voltage is below about 9.5V and it appears that something on the board is not operating at this voltage, it operates reliably at above this voltage. Maybe the drop away voltage of the relay is too high - any which way if we trace out the circuit and share it we can maybe do a redesign. ANYONE - they are about £20 on Ebay so maybe easier to just get one, then, as Nodge says, we can find an equivalent replacement relay too and let alls know.

Finally getting somewhere....."
I followed advice & tried bridging the ecu... no change, checked the relay... seemed ok.
The not starting was sometimes taking 10 minutes so bit the bullet & went to a dealer.
No faults shown and their best guess was the pick up around the key, Landrovers answer was to try to replace, but they did not sell the ring alone, had to be a steering lock & ring, in the region of £500!!!!
So I took the steering cowling off in an attempt to get the ring closer to the key to aid pick up.
RESOLVED....................
By using the spare key, & finding the "sweet spot" it starts every time?

I shall fix it in place for now, does anyone know, if I plug in a new ring, does it need coding to the vehicle?
Landry mechanic seemed to think it did, but said there was a way round it, but failed to tell!

Wire ring is just that as far as I know - purely an inductance pick up coil - the coding is in the Immob ECU.
Also - I think these are shared items with the Rover group.
Have you checked coil for continuity?? May be break in the wiring or a breakdown in insulation on the wire which could cause a short circuit in one or more turns - this will certainly make the inductance loop less sensitive. i.e. deaf

Interesting that it's the transponder coil failed. That's not common, but it appears to be getting more common.
I'm wondering if the coil from another MGR vehicle will fit, as suggested.

Thanks,
Andy, there's no insulation on the coil, just a plastic cover that clips on, but was intact.
As I was 'tucking' the modified unit into the dash, after posting above, it showed similar symptoms, although not as bad, further probing revealed it may be the connector plug, but I failed to replicate a consistent problem, having found where the car started every time with no issues, I sealed the individual wires in the connector in position, and secured the connector so no movement in either, now spot on.
It may be the female side of the plug, but the connections are so small impossible to close them for a tighter fit. Could 'hard wire' onto the pins, but I seem to have solved it with hot glue, that can at least be removed if needed.
So, it may be the coil, or the connector or a combination of both, needless to say a coil is mid £20's, (eBay), and my time and glue were ....free.... a far cry from the LR quote of £500 or so plus fitting, crazy they only include the coil with an ignition barrel when it's a separate plug in unit!

I had a similar intermittent problem with the connection to my boot handle. I squeezed the pins with a pair of pliers to make them thicker and more uneven which seems to have fixed it, so far so good anyway.

Good progress - you just misunderstood one bit. The wire has a very fine insulation on it, you can't see it but if it didn't it would all short out - I didn't mean the plastic cover. The wire is like the wire used in old transformers, it is covered in shallac or is dipped in a plastic. If this has been damaged, it will short out a turn and make the coil less efficient !
I am sure that MGR is a good place to look if the Freebie one is hard to find.

andyfreelandy said:

Good progress - you just misunderstood one bit. The wire has a very fine insulation on it, you can't see it but if it didn't it would all short out - I didn't mean the plastic cover. The wire is like the wire used in old transformers, it is covered in shallac or is dipped in a plastic. If this has been damaged, it will short out a turn and make the coil less efficient !
I am sure that MGR is a good place to look if the Freebie one is hard to find.

Click to expand...

It would be possible to rewind the coil. The coils need counting as unwound, so a new set can be rewound. It's easier to get a replacement coil.
I've looked at all other Rover coils, but they are different. The closest I found is a 2003 Ford Mondeo. This looks similar, but isn't the same.
So the easiest solution is a second hand FL1 coil.

have you tried replacing the contacts inside the starter relay? had same thing happening on mine. bought a kit from ebay at 15gbp and installed it 1 hr job. problem solved. old contacts where almost perished and un even and plunger would sometimes not bridge the contacts and close the circuit. only making a Click sound. battery was fine and keys also.
worth trying if least expensive option before messing withe the windings

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-ro...n-l-series-freelander-td4-td5-or-k-v6.138397/ same problem same fix