An Honest RR Specialist

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nevillen

nevillen

Well-Known Member
Posts
246
Location
london
As some of you know I have an old L322 3.0 Td1 with the dreaded GM 5 speed box, I am also very ill, so I don't want to spend massive amounts of money when I most likely be around for too much longer. Anyway I was thinking of changing the transmission fluid, NOT because we are having any issues, but just to do due dilligence maintenance wise.
So I found a garage, recommended by a good friend, that specialises in RR gearboxes run by a top bloke called Ercic Turner.
Turner's
Unit 4, Apsley Business Centre
233 London Road
Apsley
Hemel Hempstead
I have absolutely NO service history apart from the extensive work we have done over the last year or so, to my surprise when I called him to ask for a quote he said "don't bother!" and continued "If it is working well, just leave it, because unless you know EXACTLY the type of oil used by the previous owner when the change was done, it will destroy the box if you don't use the same fluid again"
Now our Old girl has done nearly 200,000 miles and apart from some code issues and a couple of limp home warnings last year, which we rectified with a scanner everything has been super good. Unfortunately the guy we brought it from has gone back to Lithuania and is not contactable so we cannot find out the exact make of fluid used when he purpotedly changed it a three or so years ago.
So I am inclined to take Eric's advise and just leave things as they are, I just thought I would (a) share what a top bloke he is for turning down my business and (b) to pass the information on to anyone considering doing a fluid change on a GM 5 speed box iunless they know exactly what fluid is in it. Meaning if is has NEVER been changed then go ahead and use the 'proper' Land Rover fluid, apparently the box can take possibly one change, but if yours is a high mileage one like ours it has probably been changed but with much cheaper fluid which once changed again will trash the box. Lke I say he had absolutely NOTHING to gain by passing on his knowledge, which incidentally he has gained by being an independant RR specialist over the last 20 years.
 
nevillen said:
As some of you know I have an old L322 3.0 Td1 with the dreaded GM 5 speed box, I am also very ill, so I don't want to spend massive amounts of money when I most likely be around for too much longer. Anyway I was thinking of changing the transmission fluid, NOT because we are having any issues, but just to do due dilligence maintenance wise.
So I found a garage, recommended by a good friend, that specialises in RR gearboxes run by a top bloke called Ercic Turner.
Turner's
Unit 4, Apsley Business Centre
233 London Road
Apsley
Hemel Hempstead
I have absolutely NO service history apart from the extensive work we have done over the last year or so, to my surprise when I called him to ask for a quote he said "don't bother!" and continued "If it is working well, just leave it, because unless you know EXACTLY the type of oil used by the previous owner when the change was done, it will destroy the box if you don't use the same fluid again"
Now our Old girl has done nearly 200,000 miles and apart from some code issues and a couple of limp home warnings last year, which we rectified with a scanner everything has been super good. Unfortunately the guy we brought it from has gone back to Lithuania and is not contactable so we cannot find out the exact make of fluid used when he purpotedly changed it a three or so years ago.
So I am inclined to take Eric's advise and just leave things as they are, I just thought I would (a) share what a top bloke he is for turning down my business and (b) to pass the information on to anyone considering doing a fluid change on a GM 5 speed box iunless they know exactly what fluid is in it. Meaning if is has NEVER been changed then go ahead and use the 'proper' Land Rover fluid, apparently the box can take possibly one change, but if yours is a high mileage one like ours it has probably been changed but with much cheaper fluid which once changed again will trash the box. Lke I say he had absolutely NOTHING to gain by passing on his knowledge, which incidentally he has gained by being an independant RR specialist over the last 20 years.
Click to expand...
Being the cynic that I am, maybe he just didn't want the job knowing how fragile the GM box is.
 
I would agree, except I asked for a quote last July and in his response he said around £200 for a straight fluid change but ADDED, what fluid was put in the last time it was changed? which I thought was rather odd at the time, so I think he was actually being genuine when I spoke in person with him today. He said all the other boxes apart form the GM are no problem, even though the early ZF's are supposed to be 'sealed for life' as well! (or sealed until we can stitch you up for a full replacement!)
 
Normally, a small sample of fluid can be taken from the box. If it's black leave it! Auto boxes can scare some garages if they don't deal with them and have no support with the repairs themselves.
 
With the GM boxes, isn't it simply either dex3 or dex6(synthetic)? 6 is supposedly backwards compatible. Never owned a GM box though so might be talking rubbish
 
I had my GB reconditioned a while back then the oil changed after about 25k miles by my local indi and no mention of what oil was used before. Maybe it's because my local guy has the kit to flush out all the old oil.
 
I think there is some mileage in the phrase 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' when it comes to slush boxes.

The fluid in my RRC is unlikely to have been changed since the car was new; I say unlikely because it only had 40K on the clock when I bought it 15 years ago & I've certainly not done it. The car is now 36 years old, the fluid is a little dark, but still red & the 'box appears to work as it should, smooth shifting & responsive kick-down.

Whether today's transmissions have the same longevity I've no idea, but if they build them like they do the cars .. :rolleyes:
 
norseman said:
I think there is some mileage in the phrase 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' when it comes to slush boxes.

The fluid in my RRC is unlikely to have been changed since the car was new; I say unlikely because it only had 40K on the clock when I bought it 15 years ago & I've certainly not done it. The car is now 36 years old, the fluid is a little dark, but still red & the 'box appears to work as it should, smooth shifting & responsive kick-down.

Whether today's transmissions have the same longevity I've no idea, but if they build them like they do the cars .. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The HP22e certainly benefits from a change every 30K miles
 
norseman said:
I think there is some mileage in the phrase 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' when it comes to slush boxes.

The fluid in my RRC is unlikely to have been changed since the car was new; I say unlikely because it only had 40K on the clock when I bought it 15 years ago & I've certainly not done it. The car is now 36 years old, the fluid is a little dark, but still red & the 'box appears to work as it should, smooth shifting & responsive kick-down.

Whether today's transmissions have the same longevity I've no idea, but if they build them like they do the cars .. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Ashcroft's take on it:

"I have a 4 speed ZF Auto and it sticks in first gear in the morning or when cold and is reluctant to change up from 1st gear. Once the gearbox has warmed up it shifts normally. Why?​

The governor valve is sticking, which can be caused by contamination. i.e. clutch plates or other parts disintegrating. The fine debris finds its way past the filter and tends to accumulate in the governor, causing it to stick. A temporary solution is to remove and clean the governor. The problem will often recur as debris from damaged parts continues to build up in the governor. If the problem continues after cleaning the governor then it may be necessary it replace your Autobox.We have noticed many customers reporting this fault starting a few days after an oil and filter change and after researching this using our experience and the expertise of others in the trade we have come to the conclusion that as ATF oil is a detergent type oil, when the oil is changed this will dislodge and stir up settled debris in the autobox which in turn jams the governor valve. In light of this although it sounds controversial it is debateable if changing the oil and filter is a good idea, some say if the box it going to fail it will fail if the oil is good or bad and their advice is leave it alone. I am still undecided but the truth is I get a lot of calls from customers thinking they are looking after the autobox by servicing it and a few days later this fault occurs."

I dismantled the front end of my ZF4HP22 (1986 Classic) a few years ago to cure some leaks - & have a look at the 'A' clutch plates to see what the wear was like - & what was noticeable was the amount of very fine deposits all over everything.
But if the 'box is playing up a lot of faults listed in the factory workshop manual are down to low fluid or a blocked filter so you have nothing to lose.
 
Last edited:
I agree with Eric. With the GM box in the TD6 L322, its a case of 'when' not 'if' the box will go and they generally do between 90k - 120k miles. The fact that yours has made it to almost 200k is incredible. Your vehicle will probably have had several keepers and with no history, it may already be on its second recon box. If it is still on the original, definitely leave it be.
 
Ratae said:
Ashcroft's take on it:

"I have a 4 speed ZF Auto and it sticks in first gear in the morning or when cold and is reluctant to change up from 1st gear. Once the gearbox has warmed up it shifts normally. Why?​

The governor valve is sticking, which can be caused by contamination. i.e. clutch plates or other parts disintegrating. The fine debris finds its way past the filter and tends to accumulate in the governor, causing it to stick. A temporary solution is to remove and clean the governor. The problem will often recur as debris from damaged parts continues to build up in the governor. If the problem continues after cleaning the governor then it may be necessary it replace your Autobox.We have noticed many customers reporting this fault starting a few days after an oil and filter change and after researching this using our experience and the expertise of others in the trade we have come to the conclusion that as ATF oil is a detergent type oil, when the oil is changed this will dislodge and stir up settled debris in the autobox which in turn jams the governor valve. In light of this although it sounds controversial it is debateable if changing the oil and filter is a good idea, some say if the box it going to fail it will fail if the oil is good or bad and their advice is leave it alone. I am still undecided but the truth is I get a lot of calls from customers thinking they are looking after the autobox by servicing it and a few days later this fault occurs."

I dismantled the front end of my ZF4HP22 (1986 Classic) a few years ago to cure some leaks - & have a look at the 'A' clutch plates to see what the wear was like - & what was noticeable was the amount of very fine deposits all over everything.
But if the 'box is playing up a lot of faults listed in the factory workshop manual are down to low fluid or a blocked filter so you have nothing to lose.
Click to expand...
No governor valve on the HP22e
 
Encouraging that the dash isn't chiming in with transmission/transfer box warning's..all the more reason to leave it be. Tell tale sign, from experience, that your GM box is due to expire, will be on start up. Your 322 will give you the heads up with an unmistakable chain rattle that you will never have heard before. The noise will emanate from behind the air intake on the off side on a RHD. If you use the vehicle at that point you will literally have 10 miles or so before you lose drive and grind to a halt.
 
Datatek said:
The HP22e certainly benefits from a change every 30K miles
Click to expand...
So at 62k mine should have have had two fluid changes :oops:
Seeing that it hasn't & apparently remains problem free I think I will leave well alone, changing the fluid could disturb any foreign bodies lurking in nooks 'n crannies.

I had the same advice when questioning the advisability of a fluid change on my old BMW 5 series when it passed the 150k mark with no record of any attention (BM are fond of the phrase 'sealed for life'.. bullocks) but I did take a chance 2 years ago & had the fluid changed, drove a couple of hundred miles then changed it again, this time with a genuine filter. The old fluid was dark, but debris-free & even the old filter wasn't as bad as I expected.

Appreciate your input though.
 
I think it's a case of if you do it every 30k there won't be much debris to disturb but if you wait for 100k it's too late to make it a worth while excercise. I did an oil and filter change at 100k on my first box and it didn't last long afterwards, mind you it was playing up anyway.
 
I think we are just going to leave it alone, we don't do that many miles and we don't tow. Might go to spain this early spring but will allow PLENTY of time for the journey. No more than 500 KMS a day distance either, preferably much less, I want to enjoy the few remaining real routiers restaurant and hotel places on the journey instead of the ones that have been hijacked by google!
 
nevillen said:
I think we are just going to leave it alone, we don't do that many miles and we don't tow. Might go to spain this early spring but will allow PLENTY of time for the journey. No more than 500 KMS a day distance either, preferably much less, I want to enjoy the few remaining real routiers restaurant and hotel places on the journey instead of the ones that have been hijacked by google!
Click to expand...
Enjoy the drive, the Routiers and the off the beaten track hotels. Used to love the ride down to Spain on my motorbike with mates.
 
Yep, I always loved the tucked away Routiers, they still exist but are much harder to find, but well worth it, a different world to all the fast food bollocks places that are on the motorways, even the A roads. But the routiers are really worth the effort of planning your route around, especially the ones that offer parking and a shower for 2 euros! The real france does still exist, just like the wine route, you just have to look that bit harder nowadays. Nothing better, pull up in the Rangey, open up the back, put up the little awning and bob's your uncle, me and my son can fit in the back no problem, wouldn't do it too often but beats hunting for hotels, although of course I would book a couple just to be sure. Can't wait!
 
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