Alternative to the fluid coupling (VCU)

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likimstip

Member
Posts
23
Hi,
New on here. I'm testing an alternative to the viscous coupling on a FL 1 TD4. Liking it a lot.
A Youtube search on "Freelander Tegralok" will probably find it.
Cheers.
Likim Stip
(copied from "introduce yourself" forum - not sure I should do that - apologies if I've broken protocol)
 
That's a clever way to spend a large amount of money on something that only half cures the problem and only adds questions to the mix.
While I agree that the VCU does have a short life, while it's working, it performs better than any other solution. The reason the Freelander is so good on slippery surfaces is because there is a decent amount of slip between axles. This slip keeps traction between the tyres and surface below. This is where solid 4x4 systems fail provide the best traction, as there's no slip in the transmission. All the slip is done at the tyres, breaking traction, making progress difficult.
How does this switchable box alter the rear diff ratio for instance? If the ratios between front and rear aren't matched, using it in 4WD will load up the drive train enormously.
The Freelander was designed to be easy to use with no 4X4 stuff for the driver to do. This box undoes that idea in one fell swoop. Also what happens is you forget to disconnect the rear wheels on tarmac. Just how long will the drive train last?
It's a neat idea but I think it's an idea that will cause more problems than it solves. Just my opinion.
 
Yes, a Freelander would benefit from having a centre differential like its bigger brothers, but it doesn't have one. The fluid coupling is a cheaper, less suitable compromise. It has its faults, as we see. The Tegralok unit makes the drive work just like a Discovery one as soon as the Discovery in in diff lock mode. In both cases the axles are forced to turn at the same speed, which on dry tarmac will wind up the transmission as you said. It isn't a good plan to drive a Discovery on dry tarmac while in diff lock mode, and similarly it isn't wise to have the Tegralock engaged on dry tarmac either. In both cases the driver's decisions are important. You are right to say the extra lever increases driver workload. So does a manual gearbox, and some people choose an automatic instead. Horses for courses. Thanks
 
A sensible answer but you haven't said how you have overcome the different final drive ratios between front and rear. With a solid link between front and rear, the rear wheels will drag against the front, forcing loss of traction, even when going straight.
 
I'm impressed with the ingenuity of the idea and the engineering, it's beautifully done.
On the upside you have selectable 4 wheel drive and basic 2 wheel drive on tarmac. Very clever.
Down side, you don't always know when you'll need 4x4. Ice on the roads, diesel spill, aqua planing.
The vcu is a brilliant system when it's functioning, but has its draw backs. I.E very little notice it's going to pack up.
So yes I like your idea and it's very well done. But personally I'll buy another vcu when mine packs up.
Mike
 
Phew. Almost half way through June and we hadnt had the monthly "Im going to invent a replacement for the VCU" thread.

You get huge respect from me for actually building the thing rather than just daydreaming it on here. I dont know whats inside your magic box...I assume some kind of dog box akin to the old style Fiat Panda system by Steyr Puch. You engage it "on the fly" in the videos but the drivetrain isnt under any load there, can it be engaged while driving under load or do you have to stop?

You lose my respect for failing to really understand the principal of the Freelanders drivetrain. Nodge and SkinnyMike cover it well....The whole point of the VCU is to eliminate the need of driver intervention and to always instantly have the power going to the correct wheels as the car drives in differing conditions; It also absorbs the difference in axle ratios.
Also, saying it slashes your fuel bills is a bold claim. I and a few others on here have run back to back for extended periods with and without a propshaft and seen negligeable difference in MPG.

Also - grease nipples on the bottom? yeah, no...you want them to be up on the side where they wont get sheared off driving on a rutted track.
 
Firstly, I congratulate you on achieving a VCU "replacement" - dozens have talked about it - many have said they are going to make something - but nobody has as yet - this is the first time I've seen something actually produced.

However, as the rather Grumpy response has said, the Freelander IRD under-gears the rear axle by 0.8% on diesel & 1.8 vehicles - possibly less on the V6. Therefore, if you are engaging a 1:1 direct drive there then you have created the equivalent of a 4WD system that is running on 1 axle with flat (or at least under inflated) tyres. This is a NO-NO - just like running Freelander with under inflated tyre on 1 axle. So you will achieve exactly what you are trying to fix - ie trashed transmission through wind-up. If the gearing in the Tegralok compensates for the undergearing, then that's great.

You are "over selling" this system, to summarise your claims at the end of the video...

1) Tyres wear very slowly and evenly : wrong, they will not wear "very slowly" - and if you ever engage a 1:1 Tegralok, you will wear them very quickly.
2) Fuel bills are slashed : just not true, Freelanders converted to 2WD see little improvement - so Tegralok can't improve on that. You may improve compared to a Freelander with faulty VCU or tyres - as it burns fuel putting energy into destroying the transmission.
3) Drive train components now have an easy life : Only true is you never engage the Tegralok! So you might as well remove the propshafts.

The "real" benefits of this - assuming you have the gearing correct - are:
1) Possibly reduced tyre wear.
2) No need to monitor the VCU.
3) Less need to monitor tyre pressures.

The draw backs:
1) Poorer on-road handling for most engines.
2) Reduced on-road safety, especially in poor weather conditions.
3) Reduced off-road ability and adaptability.
4) Cost? Can you build 1 of these for £200?

Well done for achieving it, and it is MUCH better than running a pure 2WD Freelander (assuming the correct gearing) - but I think you are trying to "over sell" it.
 
likimstip said:
Hi,
New on here. I'm testing an alternative to the viscous coupling on a FL 1 TD4. Liking it a lot.
A Youtube search on "Freelander Tegralok" will probably find it.
Cheers.
Likim Stip
(copied from "introduce yourself" forum - not sure I should do that - apologies if I've broken protocol)
Click to expand...
I just do not see the point - absolutely no benefit at all :(
Just an experiment in time wasted on a futile attempt to invent the wheel.
The freelander is a rather good off road vehicle, however, it is not the best - for me though - it the vehicle of choice as I do not want to go 12" deep in mud, cross deserts, climb mountains or twist axles .... so, what you have 'tried' to do achieves absolutely nada. in real world usability.
Ho Hum . interesting but yet another waste of time and effort...
Sorry dude, pointless.:rolleyes:
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one to poh poh the idea of a switchable 4x4 system for the Freelander. While the concept is ok, the Freelander's drive train doesn't accept such a device.
What would be good however is a device that could disconnect the drive to the rear at the flick of a switch, but keep the VCU for normal running. This disconnection would be perfect for those times when the VCU might be prone to locking. Like when a spare tyre is fitted or one has gone low on pressure, mid journey.
Nice idea but I think it will create just as many problems as it is supposed to solve.
 
Nodge68 said:
A sensible answer but you haven't said how you have overcome the different final drive ratios between front and rear. With a solid link between front and rear, the rear wheels will drag against the front, forcing loss of traction, even when going straight.
Click to expand...
Thanks, true.
(note, off-road comments follow) I ignore the tyre "creep" required to match the ratios difference. I expected it to be tough to detect, and so far it has been. I guess it is smaller than normal tyre creep on grass, but further testing might detect it. More anon.
 
Skinny Mike said:
I'm impressed with the ingenuity of the idea and the engineering, it's beautifully done.
On the upside you have selectable 4 wheel drive and basic 2 wheel drive on tarmac. Very clever.
Down side, you don't always know when you'll need 4x4. Ice on the roads, diesel spill, aqua planing.
The vcu is a brilliant system when it's functioning, but has its draw backs. I.E very little notice it's going to pack up.
So yes I like your idea and it's very well done. But personally I'll buy another vcu when mine packs up.
Mike
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'll keep testing.
 
dave21478 said:
Phew. Almost half way through June and we hadnt had the monthly "Im going to invent a replacement for the VCU" thread.

You get huge respect from me for actually building the thing rather than just daydreaming it on here. I dont know whats inside your magic box...I assume some kind of dog box akin to the old style Fiat Panda system by Steyr Puch. You engage it "on the fly" in the videos but the drivetrain isnt under any load there, can it be engaged while driving under load or do you have to stop?

You lose my respect for failing to really understand the principal of the Freelanders drivetrain. Nodge and SkinnyMike cover it well....The whole point of the VCU is to eliminate the need of driver intervention and to always instantly have the power going to the correct wheels as the car drives in differing conditions; It also absorbs the difference in axle ratios.
Also, saying it slashes your fuel bills is a bold claim. I and a few others on here have run back to back for extended periods with and without a propshaft and seen negligeable difference in MPG.

Also - grease nipples on the bottom? yeah, no...you want them to be up on the side where they wont get sheared off driving on a rutted track.
Click to expand...


Thanks,
Unless it is really spinning a wheel, the difference in speeds between the front and rear propshafts is quite small. Sometimes there is a pause before it engages because the teeth are aligned, but moments later it does. Mostly I stop first (to open the gate, etc)
Perhaps you are right about my lack of understanding, perhaps we don't agree. Both are possible.
I'm putting less fuel in. Subjective. It seems better.
The grease nipples are in the wrong place, yes.
I try not to make a virtue out of necessity. If I'm stuck with a product, I don't sing it's praises it simply because that is how it came. I either change it, or get over it.
 
GrumpyGel said:
Firstly, I congratulate you on achieving a VCU "replacement" - dozens have talked about it - many have said they are going to make something - but nobody has as yet - this is the first time I've seen something actually produced.

However, as the rather Grumpy response has said, the Freelander IRD under-gears the rear axle by 0.8% on diesel & 1.8 vehicles - possibly less on the V6. Therefore, if you are engaging a 1:1 direct drive there then you have created the equivalent of a 4WD system that is running on 1 axle with flat (or at least under inflated) tyres. This is a NO-NO - just like running Freelander with under inflated tyre on 1 axle. So you will achieve exactly what you are trying to fix - ie trashed transmission through wind-up. If the gearing in the Tegralok compensates for the undergearing, then that's great.

You are "over selling" this system, to summarise your claims at the end of the video...

1) Tyres wear very slowly and evenly : wrong, they will not wear "very slowly" - and if you ever engage a 1:1 Tegralok, you will wear them very quickly.
2) Fuel bills are slashed : just not true, Freelanders converted to 2WD see little improvement - so Tegralok can't improve on that. You may improve compared to a Freelander with faulty VCU or tyres - as it burns fuel putting energy into destroying the transmission.
3) Drive train components now have an easy life : Only true is you never engage the Tegralok! So you might as well remove the propshafts.

The "real" benefits of this - assuming you have the gearing correct - are:
1) Possibly reduced tyre wear.
2) No need to monitor the VCU.
3) Less need to monitor tyre pressures.

The draw backs:
1) Poorer on-road handling for most engines.
2) Reduced on-road safety, especially in poor weather conditions.
3) Reduced off-road ability and adaptability.
4) Cost? Can you build 1 of these for £200?

Well done for achieving it, and it is MUCH better than running a pure 2WD Freelander (assuming the correct gearing) - but I think you are trying to "over sell" it.
Click to expand...

Thanks,
I might be getting this wrong, but you seem to like the Tegralok idea a tad less than I do. I guess you won't be fitting one any time soon.
I'm having fun using this one, so we are all happy.
Joe_H said:
I just do not see the point - absolutely no benefit at all :(
Just an experiment in time wasted on a futile attempt to invent the wheel.
The freelander is a rather good off road vehicle, however, it is not the best - for me though - it the vehicle of choice as I do not want to go 12" deep in mud, cross deserts, climb mountains or twist axles .... so, what you have 'tried' to do achieves absolutely nada. in real world usability.
Ho Hum . interesting but yet another waste of time and effort...
Sorry dude, pointless.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
I'm curious as to the cost of this item as say, a fitted kit.
A VCU works perfectly well for 70,000 miles or more, providing it's looked after and cost around £230 to recondition.
Now I can see the idea of a switchable system, if the vehicle is used mostly off road, providing the gearing mismatch can be got round.
If so, how much would this item cost? and how long can it be expected to last?
 
likimstip said:
Thanks,
Unless it is really spinning a wheel, the difference in speeds between the front and rear propshafts is quite small. Sometimes there is a pause before it engages because the teeth are aligned, but moments later it does. Mostly I stop first (to open the gate, etc)
Perhaps you are right about my lack of understanding, perhaps we don't agree. Both are possible.
I'm putting less fuel in. Subjective. It seems better.
The grease nipples are in the wrong place, yes.
I try not to make a virtue out of necessity. If I'm stuck with a product, I don't sing it's praises it simply because that is how it came. I either change it, or get over it.
Click to expand...


Dont get me wrong - I genuinely respect what you have done.

Im not sure how long you have read this forum before signing up, but once a month or so someone will come along with wild ideas and big plans to replace the VCU. 99% of the time they have no idea about the basic principals of drivetrains and almost always lack engineering or even basic mechanical knowledge.

You have done what as far as I am aware nobody else has done before, you have put your money where your mouth is and built what appears to be a working prototype - that alone is something to be proud of....believe me I know how much time and money one-off projects like this eat up!

I personally (and a few others here) disagree with your reasons for doing this, I personally think its something that solves a problem that doesnt really exist and I see its drawbacks as outweighing its benefits, but you have your reasons and you seem rightfully proud of what you have done, so good for you.
I hope you will stick around the forum, I would like to see how this pans out in the long run.
 
dave21478 said:
Dont get me wrong - I genuinely respect what you have done.

Im not sure how long you have read this forum before signing up, but once a month or so someone will come along with wild ideas and big plans to replace the VCU. 99% of the time they have no idea about the basic principals of drivetrains and almost always lack engineering or even basic mechanical knowledge.

You have done what as far as I am aware nobody else has done before, you have put your money where your mouth is and built what appears to be a working prototype - that alone is something to be proud of....believe me I know how much time and money one-off projects like this eat up!

I personally (and a few others here) disagree with your reasons for doing this, I personally think its something that solves a problem that doesnt really exist and I see its drawbacks as outweighing its benefits, but you have your reasons and you seem rightfully proud of what you have done, so good for you.
I hope you will stick around the forum, I would like to see how this pans out in the long run.
Click to expand...
I don't always agree with dave21478, but I do agree with every word of this^^^^
 
likimstip said:
Thanks,
I might be getting this wrong, but you seem to like the Tegralok idea a tad less than I do. I guess you won't be fitting one any time soon.
I'm having fun using this one, so we are all happy.
Click to expand...
Nodge68 said:
I'm curious as to the cost of this item as say, a fitted kit.
A VCU works perfectly well for 70,000 miles or more, providing it's looked after and cost around £230 to recondition.
Now I can see the idea of a switchable system, if the vehicle is used mostly off road, providing the gearing mismatch can be got round.
If so, how much would this item cost? and how long can it be expected to last?
Click to expand...

Hi jamesmartin,
I'm going to have to fudge the answer a little, because on the one hand many of the parts came out of my recycling (aka scrap) bin, like the clevis links, and including the lever knob, which had been on an underground drilling machine in Ukraine! while on the other hand I had to pay top dollar for the bought-in parts because the order was so small. My best guess would be just shy of £1000. The cost of machining the parts, welding and so on is zero because you would do it yourself.

If a few people wanted one, however............................................
 
likimstip said:
Hi jamesmartin,
I'm going to have to fudge the answer a little, because on the one hand many of the parts came out of my recycling (aka scrap) bin, like the clevis links, and including the lever knob, which had been on an underground drilling machine in Ukraine! while on the other hand I had to pay top dollar for the bought-in parts because the order was so small. My best guess would be just shy of £1000. The cost of machining the parts, welding and so on is zero because you would do it yourself.

If a few people wanted one, however............................................
Click to expand...
its a nice job in any case .id be proud
 
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