P38A 97 P38 Gems - EAS issue which seems to have expanded

frozen north 2 said:

Data.. The system went down and then I took the opportunity or was driven to rebuild compressor / valve block drawing on an assumption and the compressor was running to much sporadically.
And was very systematic in valve rebuild progressing one by one. I didnt take the example of some online "how to's" and tore it apart into components and reassemble.

Click to expand...

I am still inclined to think there is something crossed up, multiple height sensor failure is vey unlikely. If the system is trying to inflate one corner but sees no movement on that height sensor, it will log a sensor fault so if the corner trying to inflate is not linked to the correct sensor there will be a fault.

Data, most of it doesn't make much sense.
When I see / feel any "tremor" in vehicle - I investigate because I had read on how it can be a domino effect or compile. A while ago - maybe because I may or may not drive it once a week or two. It had a glitch with the BECM communication / all of a sudden didnt want to start - "group" thought it was the radio freq bit.
Got the blackbox BECM and all was right with the world.

Some times it would go down on bumpers over night but maybe 5 - 10% of time.
Prior to cratering - it just seemed the compressor needed a rebuild and the rear bags were tired or leaking.
But that impact also depended on how long I drove during the day or consecutive days.
Yes 26 yrs old - but only 135K miles and 24 years parked in a heated garage.
Rebuilt compressor and valve block but didnt pull on any connectors / wires in the process.
Didnt mess with, investigate or touch the balance or electrical until now.
It is in exactly the same place it was in the beginning - the only thing that kicks in / starts / changes is whether there are two lights before 4 flashing before it goes to four solid.
Or just straight to four flashing then solid.
Nothing appears to be moving - the sequence of HS contact faults is always the same.
The only other thing that has changed or changes is when I go to leave it and lock with the FOB
After I run a test with RSW it wants to super lock on one click.
Next day it operates on normal lock.

But intrigued to try Pwoods plug and play suggestion / process to force it or see if there is any life.
I just have to grab some small bits to give it a try.
And determine connector # and run a copy of the pin layout - just to make sure I don't screw up.
Maybe give it a shot tomorrow.
Back to dialectric - was just going to put some on actual contact surfaces to keep sealed / in contact and so moisture dirt couldnt migrate in.
Will advise, Cheers

Are your suspension air lines in the correct place? I had in my early days of ownership put the rear lines in the wrong location and had a great time trying to set heights. The rear suspension pipes looked correct to the eye but I had inadvertently replaced the two rear lines in the wrong fittings??
For the fronts you can follow them but fir the rears it's easy to unplug one air line at the front and one at the rear then blow air down it and see if it corresponds to its ideal position. Just to rule this out

frozen north 2 said:

Data, most of it doesn't make much sense.
When I see / feel any "tremor" in vehicle - I investigate because I had read on how it can be a domino effect or compile. A while ago - maybe because I may or may not drive it once a week or two. It had a glitch with the BECM communication / all of a sudden didnt want to start - "group" thought it was the radio freq bit.
Got the blackbox BECM and all was right with the world.

Some times it would go down on bumpers over night but maybe 5 - 10% of time.
Prior to cratering - it just seemed the compressor needed a rebuild and the rear bags were tired or leaking.
But that impact also depended on how long I drove during the day or consecutive days.
Yes 26 yrs old - but only 135K miles and 24 years parked in a heated garage.
Rebuilt compressor and valve block but didnt pull on any connectors / wires in the process.
Didnt mess with, investigate or touch the balance or electrical until now.
It is in exactly the same place it was in the beginning - the only thing that kicks in / starts / changes is whether there are two lights before 4 flashing before it goes to four solid.
Or just straight to four flashing then solid.
Nothing appears to be moving - the sequence of HS contact faults is always the same.
The only other thing that has changed or changes is when I go to leave it and lock with the FOB
After I run a test with RSW it wants to super lock on one click.
Next day it operates on normal lock.

But intrigued to try Pwoods plug and play suggestion / process to force it or see if there is any life.
I just have to grab some small bits to give it a try.
And determine connector # and run a copy of the pin layout - just to make sure I don't screw up.
Maybe give it a shot tomorrow.
Back to dialectric - was just going to put some on actual contact surfaces to keep sealed / in contact and so moisture dirt couldnt migrate in.
Will advise, Cheers

Click to expand...

Very easy when servicing the valve block to put a coil back on the wrong valve.

This diagram shows which solenoid & airline outlet is which. View from the side where the airlines go in. If you have the tank full, it's easy to inflate one corner at a time & see what rises, either using Nanocom, RSW or the 12V method I posted.

frozen north 2 said:

From your "step by step"
#3 - leave those connected? - those are base pwr channel I assume?
And then
#4 & #5 can be contacted individually?

Click to expand...

Yes with 12V on pins 12+13, and 10+11 grounded, you are simply powering the valve driver pack. Then when touching pins 1-6 to 12V you are activating each solenoid safely. The driver pack takes care of the correct solenoid voltage & current.

pwood999 said:

This diagram shows which solenoid & airline outlet is which. View from the side where the airlines go in. If you have the tank full, it's easy to inflate one corner at a time & see what rises, either using Nanocom, RSW or the 12V method I posted.



Yes with 12V on pins 12+13, and 10+11 grounded, you are simply powering the valve driver pack. Then when touching pins 1-6 to 12V you are activating each solenoid safely. The driver pack takes care of the correct solenoid voltage & current.


View attachment 296892

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Putting 12 volts on the valve block solenoids is asking for trouble IMO, the solenoids are I believe rated for 9 volts and are powered by pulses.

Datatek said:

Putting 12 volts on the valve block solenoids is asking for trouble IMO, the solenoids are I believe rated for 9 volts and are powered by pulses.

Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting 12V on the solenoids. 12V to the Driver Pack inputs so that then uses the hit & drop waveform on the solenoids, which is what the ECU does.

pwood999 said:

I'm not suggesting 12V on the solenoids. 12V to the Driver Pack inputs so that then uses the hit & drop waveform on the solenoids, which is what the ECU does.

Click to expand...

OK.
I have never looked at it but I was not aware that the control signals to the driver pack were 12 volts. Perhaps wrongly I had assumed they were 5 volts. I will have to look into it.

Thx - well that drawing is more clarifying - have the base dwrg with out the wiring mark up.
Connector C152 = got the drwg
Well I'm heading to lake tomorrow - but not taking allot for once / so not allot of time wasted - so hope to try this or some of it.
Well if I wont have rover close - I have the Rover manual, internet etc on lap top.
Its pretty much a Stat holiday for NA - so a challenge to get some bits and pieces.
For HS - I thought I read / saw (schematic)? 12v out 5V return
Thx guys, Cheers

Just a thing, so as I was making up the testing contacts.
Jumped the compressor to fill tank - ran it in a couple 4 min cycles.
Could hear the compressor come under pressure - so tank pressuring. Running nice relatively quiet and new rubber bumpers on hold down bolts.
After I pulled the relay jumper a short blast of air from exhaust
Just for ****s and giggles turned on rover - first time only - the top three lights came on solid - no exit height light.
Left it, tried again all four lights solid.

Mark - Thx but - a couple things with the air lines - the piping "wrap / original tape" right up to enclosure box was intact and tight. As well as the color / number tags were still on piping So just because - I took a photo with camera before I touched. But the whole bundle was rather secure so even when removed from valve block the piping stayed in position.
After I replaced I compared to photo to confirm.
This vehicle is rather a virgin, like I'm tending to feel like right now, the spare tire has never even been taken out and the jack & iron are still in the original styro shipping packaging.

I'm anxious to try PW's powering up just to see or progress.
Just wondering - is a bear or scotch on the "Bench" an unwritten procedural requirement in this process.
Cheers,

Don't worry about what I mean by Bench Test. Just do the other stuff recommended above.

If you're really interested, below is the bench test.

• Five gauges to represent the tank & 4 corners.

• Manual control box, which essentially does what I proposed above to power the driver pack.

• The large button engages the pump via a relay, which also uses the pressure sensor to switch the pump off at 140psi.

It does sound like damp or bad connection somewhere.

Ait tank will need to be over 110 psi. Should cut out somewhere between 130 psi and 150 psi. I have a guage on mine so I can see the tank is full and not leaking.

Grrrrrr said:

It does sound like damp or bad connection somewhere.

Ait tank will need to be over 110 psi. Should cut out somewhere between 130 psi and 150 psi. I have a guage on mine so I can see the tank is full and not leaking.

Click to expand...

I had a gauge on mine a few years ago, but the gauge leaked slowly !!

pwood999 said:

I had a gauge on mine a few years ago, but the gauge leaked slowly !!

Click to expand...

Yes, this is my second one!

Pw, nicely done - apparently you don't get bugged for working on a "precious" -
I had pretty much made up what was needed to test and weather went wet. Which drives me a bit batty.
As now I have to get to the lake and take advantage of seasonal conditions and prep for the coming winter in CA
So I will be back to this next monday. And maybe some of the "parts" I ordered will arrive on carrier pigeon.
But will take my notes and lap top with the RR service manuals and continue "familiarizing"
We are still on fire bans in the BC interior. Though we dont have any fires within 250 kms - so evening campfires by the lake will not be a "distraction" Let alone some of the clean up I wanted to do.
Guys thx for your help and have a great week
Cheers

So GF was given some med's on Friday which have been progressively bothering her stomach and the drive to lake is 8 hrs with girl approved rest stops about every two hrs - so delayed depart until she can talk to Doc tomorrow.

So I thought I would take the opp to try the wiring jumps - now I may need drugs.

Apologies these symptoms maybe long.
Haven't messed with Rover for a couple days.
Before I got started -
Just to make sure no bent pins etc from prior work. I opened checked and closed the ECU / EAS 35 pin connector and the 12 pin EAS Contr C152.
Started up rover - the two lights (running and exit) but = new activity = the compressor started up for a few seconds then one shot of air through exhaust.
Turned it off and started on the jumper wiring.

Had made up the jumper connections - used small quick connect / female side insulated dagger connections.
As all the connections / pins were adjacent made them up as a single chain / string. Then double checked for continuity
Naturally assumed connections were to be made to ( downstream / valve block side of connector)
Ground pins 10 & 11 (bottom right side) were clamped to earth ground on vehicle hood.
12V off the battery pos post to pins 12 & 13 (bottom left pair)

Clamped it to + battery terminal double checked connection when I looked up I could see smoke and crackling noise coming from apparently bottom of C152 or below it.
Pulled the power off and then Grnd line.
Pulled the jumper lines - no apparent damage or melt to connector.
Inspected the connector as far as it could be extracted out of EAS box
Took the pen flashlight and inspected all visible wiring and no discoloration or burn marks.
Left it to "cool down" and inspect / make sure none of the connector points (male & female) were damaged.
For curiosity or damage - checked for continuity between 12 - 13 and 10 - 11
There is continuity between 12 & 13 SG & SG as well between 10 - 11 B &B but not between the pairs - so no significant damage?
Was never able to try Pin 3, 4, 5 - assumed 12/13 & 10 / 11 were predecessor connections ( SG & B pwr & grnd) and as those were not functional - the valves wouldn't energize with just Pin 3, 4, 5?

Just as a check - left connector 152 open - started the rover. Again something new - compressor started / 6 blasts of air through exhaust - no service EAS dash light, the two lights on, compressor stopped and then four flashing lights - did not progress to solid colors. Turned off rover.

Grabbed a cigarette staired at engine compartment.
Reconnected C152 not an issue nice solid click.
Tried rover again - 2 lights compressor started then stopped one blast through exhaust and then four flashing lights.

Or should the 12v not be off battery (to "hot" / to much amperage potential)?
12v off a charger @ 2A instead?
Has the power from ECU been stepped down?

Tracked this through schematics - to tired and making my head hurt.

Will get back to this tomorrow -
Maybe something will come to others minds.

Cheers,

It's not clear how you are trying to do this ? If you're not sure stop.

Connector C152 must be unplugged when doing this. You do not want to send voltage back to the ECU.

Which pins does this refer to ?
"As all the connections / pins were adjacent made them up as a single chain / string. Then double checked for continuity"

Post pictures of what you are doing.

The connector at the front of the EAS valve box is C141. Look at the wire colours underneath C141. 10+11 are black wires, and 12+13 are red wires. These provide power to the Driver Pack.

Perhaps you should use a different plan,
First out why the compressor only runs for a short few seconds. Have you checked the thermal sensor wire has continuity to ground ?

1) With the engine running, leave tailgate & front doors open. The compressor should run until the tank is full.
2) Once you're sure the tank is full, close the doors & tailgate.
3) Now connect diagnostics and clear all faults.
4) Stop & restart the engine. The suspension should rise at back first, and then the fronts.

frozen north 2 said:

So GF was given some med's on Friday which have been progressively bothering her stomach and the drive to lake is 8 hrs with girl approved rest stops about every two hrs - so delayed depart until she can talk to Doc tomorrow.

So I thought I would take the opp to try the wiring jumps - now I may need drugs.

Apologies these symptoms maybe long.
Haven't messed with Rover for a couple days.
Before I got started -
Just to make sure no bent pins etc from prior work. I opened checked and closed the ECU / EAS 35 pin connector and the 12 pin EAS Contr C152.
Started up rover - the two lights (running and exit) but = new activity = the compressor started up for a few seconds then one shot of air through exhaust.
Turned it off and started on the jumper wiring.

Had made up the jumper connections - used small quick connect / female side insulated dagger connections.
As all the connections / pins were adjacent made them up as a single chain / string. Then double checked for continuity
Naturally assumed connections were to be made to ( downstream / valve block side of connector)
Ground pins 10 & 11 (bottom right side) were clamped to earth ground on vehicle hood.
12V off the battery pos post to pins 12 & 13 (bottom left pair)

Clamped it to + battery terminal double checked connection when I looked up I could see smoke and crackling noise coming from apparently bottom of C152 or below it.
Pulled the power off and then Grnd line.
Pulled the jumper lines - no apparent damage or melt to connector.
Inspected the connector as far as it could be extracted out of EAS box
Took the pen flashlight and inspected all visible wiring and no discoloration or burn marks.
Left it to "cool down" and inspect / make sure none of the connector points (male & female) were damaged.
For curiosity or damage - checked for continuity between 12 - 13 and 10 - 11
There is continuity between 12 & 13 SG & SG as well between 10 - 11 B &B but not between the pairs - so no significant damage?
Was never able to try Pin 3, 4, 5 - assumed 12/13 & 10 / 11 were predecessor connections ( SG & B pwr & grnd) and as those were not functional - the valves wouldn't energize with just Pin 3, 4, 5?

Just as a check - left connector 152 open - started the rover. Again something new - compressor started / 6 blasts of air through exhaust - no service EAS dash light, the two lights on, compressor stopped and then four flashing lights - did not progress to solid colors. Turned off rover.

Grabbed a cigarette staired at engine compartment.
Reconnected C152 not an issue nice solid click.
Tried rover again - 2 lights compressor started then stopped one blast through exhaust and then four flashing lights.

Or should the 12v not be off battery (to "hot" / to much amperage potential)?
12v off a charger @ 2A instead?
Has the power from ECU been stepped down?

Tracked this through schematics - to tired and making my head hurt.

Will get back to this tomorrow -
Maybe something will come to others minds.

Cheers,

Click to expand...

No comment other than an external power source should not be used for what you are trying to do.

The thermal switch can be fried but not completely fail. Had that once. Also, compressor can run bit then short out internally.

PW, sorry misspoke - C 152 is ECU side / C 141 is the valve / compressor side - I find there are like four photos in the Z5 visual location views of the compressor box in engine compartment - might have been handy if they used one photo and indicated the the two halves of connectors #'s to the three connectors in the box. And / or had used sequential #'s that made more sense like other systems.

The connection was broken / open and the quick connects were attached to the valve block side C141
Used the micro 18-22ga female side of dagger / quick disconnect connectors.
To reduce the amount / number of runs - bulk of wire. Made the jumpers from a single wire with 2 and 3 connectors in a row.
So cut the wire - one end attached the alligator clip - cut stripped and twisted two wires into the first crimp connection on female dagger connector then stripped and crimped end of wire into second dagger connector. Same process for the valve 3 connector jumper.

End result with the jumper test was the power / grnd jumper connections were reversed relying on the wrong Z6 connector view
So hopefully that didnt screw anything up.
Will have to grab some new female dagger connectors and try again.

Very initial issue was that apparently the BECM was out of sync and vehicle would not start at all - so got the Blk Bx Sync mate BECM then once again it was running - issue did not repeat.

The initial EAS issue was the amount of time the compressor was running and following road bumps of potential wear or a pending break down
The Black box / sync mate EAS kicker mitigated issues until it cratered for no specific cause.
Had very early on before and after rebuilding compressor researched and checked for continuity and thermal connection on compressor.
Had rebuilt compressor retested continuity etc and used kicker and no operational response.
Then moved to rebuild the valve block and check wiring for any wear or breaks.
And did that valve by valve progressively to make sure there were no issues generated. Replaced the diaphragm / rememberd the spring etc
Ran compressor on relay by pass to determine if it generated tank pressure and valve pressure switch held pressure - it did
But will test compressor continuity again.

But I couldn't get compressor to run independently / within EAS system with out using the relay bypass jumper.
It was only with this recent test / screw up it had started to run, even sporadically, with out using the relay bypass.
Actually correction -at begining of today's process when I reopened checked and closed both the 35 pin ECU connector and 152/141 connectors - the compressor did run - sporadically - when starting engine. And then continued sporadically following the test screw up.

With relay jump - will the compressor independently shut off - I wouldn't think so?
But I've run the compressor that way for like 10 minutes - so one would assume continuity and thermal are operational?

None the less, will see how tomorrow transpires and maybe try C141 jumper test again.
Cheers,