3 point belt to replace lap belt

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From Boris Johnson's column today. Whatever you think of the man, he's
at least got the official statistics to hand:
------------------------------------------

.. . .

Between 1981 and 1985 there was an average of 18 fatalities per year of
children aged eight-11 using roads in the United Kingdom. That had
fallen to 12 in the period 1994-98, to 11 in 2002, and in 2004 the total
number of fatalities stood at four - an astonishing reflection on the
growing safety of cars, when you consider how enormously they have
increased in number.

I would resent this law badly enough as an infringement of my liberty to
decide how to convey my own children in my own car. But the main reason
why I am so angry is that this stupid and impertinent law was not even
generated by the British Government. It wasn't some gentleman in
Whitehall who decided he knew best about booster seats. It wasn't even
the brainchild of the UK health and safety industry. It is, of course,
an EU directive, which means that elected British politicians have been
given neither the means nor the opportunity to contest it - or even to
debate it.

This EU directive, 2003/20/EC, arises because a few years ago some
lonely and bored European Commission official was persuaded (no doubt by
the booster seat industry) that in some circumstances children under
135cm would be safer with booster seats.

So a directive was drawn up. Even if any EU government had dared oppose
this "child safety" measure, that government could have been simply
outvoted - while looking cavalier about the wellbeing of our little
ones. The UK therefore apathetically connived in the exercise, and the
directive was sent for "scrutiny" before parliament's European Scrutiny
Committee.

Needless to say, there was no discussion or "scrutiny", since the huge
volume of EU legislation makes this impractical. As it rubber-stamped
the directive (and bear in mind that there is no way Parliament, at that
or any other stage, could have said no) the committee did ask two
questions. How much would these seats cost the average family, and how
many lives would be saved?

Four years later, long after this directive has become irreversible, the
Government has replied. They don't know how much it will cost, they say,
but the measure "might save" the lives of 1.5 children per year. In the
whole country.

OK folks: you do the maths. You think how many millions of car journeys
are there involving children every day. You might decide that it is
still worth installing booster seats for all under 135cm. But with odds
like that it should surely be a matter for individual choice and not
international coercion.

What enrages me is that this was not even discussed in one of the
Commons' three European Standing Committees, and what enrages me more is
that even if it had been discussed, it would have made no difference.

We need proper standing committees with the power to mandate ministers,
and to refuse to accept directives even if they are decided at a
majority vote. Otherwise we will find that the law of this country - the
law affecting the personal lives of millions, and their children - is
not made in this country; and that is a perfect and justifiable reason
for massive civil disobedience.

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
>>

> some old classic cars don't have rear belts or indeed mountings for them...


Some classic cars don't have seat beltsat all!

Neil

 

SpamTrapSeeSig wrote:
> From Boris Johnson's column today. Whatever you think of the man, he's
> at least got the official statistics to hand:
> ------------------------------------------


Boris does write some pertinent stuff in his column from time to time.

The government needs to focus on the areas where the greater problems
lie and leave the gene pool to sort itself out of those that choose to
let their children ride in precarious positions!

Guns, drugs, unlicensed/uninsured cars people blah, blah, blah.....
Neil

 
In message <[email protected]>
SpamTrapSeeSig <[email protected]> wrote:

> From Boris Johnson's column today. Whatever you think of the man, he's
> at least got the official statistics to hand:
> ------------------------------------------
>
> . . .
>
> Between 1981 and 1985 there was an average of 18 fatalities per year of
> children aged eight-11 using roads in the United Kingdom. That had
> fallen to 12 in the period 1994-98, to 11 in 2002, and in 2004 the total
> number of fatalities stood at four - an astonishing reflection on the
> growing safety of cars, when you consider how enormously they have
> increased in number.
>
> I would resent this law badly enough as an infringement of my liberty to
> decide how to convey my own children in my own car. But the main reason
> why I am so angry is that this stupid and impertinent law was not even
> generated by the British Government. It wasn't some gentleman in
> Whitehall who decided he knew best about booster seats. It wasn't even
> the brainchild of the UK health and safety industry. It is, of course,
> an EU directive, which means that elected British politicians have been
> given neither the means nor the opportunity to contest it - or even to
> debate it.
>
> This EU directive, 2003/20/EC, arises because a few years ago some
> lonely and bored European Commission official was persuaded (no doubt by
> the booster seat industry) that in some circumstances children under
> 135cm would be safer with booster seats.
>
> So a directive was drawn up. Even if any EU government had dared oppose
> this "child safety" measure, that government could have been simply
> outvoted - while looking cavalier about the wellbeing of our little
> ones. The UK therefore apathetically connived in the exercise, and the
> directive was sent for "scrutiny" before parliament's European Scrutiny
> Committee.
>
> Needless to say, there was no discussion or "scrutiny", since the huge
> volume of EU legislation makes this impractical. As it rubber-stamped
> the directive (and bear in mind that there is no way Parliament, at that
> or any other stage, could have said no) the committee did ask two
> questions. How much would these seats cost the average family, and how
> many lives would be saved?
>
> Four years later, long after this directive has become irreversible, the
> Government has replied. They don't know how much it will cost, they say,
> but the measure "might save" the lives of 1.5 children per year. In the
> whole country.
>
> OK folks: you do the maths. You think how many millions of car journeys
> are there involving children every day. You might decide that it is
> still worth installing booster seats for all under 135cm. But with odds
> like that it should surely be a matter for individual choice and not
> international coercion.
>
> What enrages me is that this was not even discussed in one of the
> Commons' three European Standing Committees, and what enrages me more is
> that even if it had been discussed, it would have made no difference.
>
> We need proper standing committees with the power to mandate ministers,
> and to refuse to accept directives even if they are decided at a
> majority vote. Otherwise we will find that the law of this country - the
> law affecting the personal lives of millions, and their children - is
> not made in this country; and that is a perfect and justifiable reason
> for massive civil disobedience.
>
> Regards,
>
> Simonm.
>


While I agree with sentiment wholeheartedly, I can't see what
difference it makes whether it comes from the EU or not, the UK
is quite capable of comming up with it's own ill thought out law.

A farmer may, under defined circumstances, burn the left overs
from trimming hedges. But he is committing a criminal offence,
under environmental legislation, if he uses an old newspaper
to light it!

Sadly, a lot of the daft laws are placed at the EU's door, but
are infact home-grown and blamed by politicians on the EU.
Presumambly our politicians choose to do this to avoid having to
explain why they didn't even attemmpt to think through the consequenes
from the non 9-to-5-with-pension-and-free-health-care brigade[1]
perspective.

Richard

[1] Probaby because they will be viewed as trouble makers by the
party whips if they don't conform to current "PC" standards and risk
upsetting Guardian and Indepenent readers.

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive
 
> This EU directive, 2003/20/EC

Told you so :cool:

> Otherwise we will find that the law of this country - the
> law affecting the personal lives of millions, and their children - is
> not made in this country


The only thing he hasn't quite grasped is that it's too late, the laws
are already made in Europe and we can do nothing but rubber stamp them.
Our politicians don't bother debating them seriously becase it makes no
difference, once a Directive is produced we are legally bound by treaty
to implement it in UK law (as are all other member states) and even if
we fail to do so it still becomes UK law after a certain date
regardless of what our statute book says! (acording to a test case some
years ago).

Greg

 

beamendsltd wrote:

> Sadly, a lot of the daft laws are placed at the EU's door, but
> are infact home-grown and blamed by politicians on the EU.


If a law is even tenuously related to safety, and has been passed in
the last decade or so, it's almost certain the implementation of an EU
directive as they've totally taken over safety related law making, and
when you think about it that covers a heck of a lot of our lives. Yes
the politicians often (rightly) blame Europe when it's particularly
controversial, but they are walking a tightrope as they dare not admit
the truth that we have already lost sovereignty in many areas.

As a designer I have to work within safety legislation all the time,
and I can't think of one area where it isn't either an implementation
of a Directive, harmonised with a directive or a directive is in the
pipeline.

Now of course Europe is moving beyond safety legislation with things
like the human rights act, and even the proposed changes to the tiers
of local government (unitary authorities) are a direct result of a
European dictate that there shall be only two levels of local
government in the future.

It's perfectly clear that this is all heading towards a federal Europe
by the back door, but that's so controversial that politicians daren't
admit it. One thing's for sure, we haven't been asked for our agreement
to the loss of sovereignty that's already happened (my parent's
generation was only asked about economic union, not political) and
aren't going to be asked about future steps. As an example, there was
going to be a referendum about a unitary authority in Yorkshire but
when it became clear the government would not get our agreement the
referendum was cancelled, it had to be since they have no choice in the
matter so now it's being worked in by the back door instead.

Greg

 
In article <e23ed4694e%[email protected]>, beamendsltd
<[email protected]> writes
>While I agree with sentiment wholeheartedly, I can't see what
>difference it makes whether it comes from the EU or not, the UK
>is quite capable of comming up with it's own ill thought out law.


Quite. The "dangerous dogs act" is a good example.
>
>A farmer may, under defined circumstances, burn the left overs
>from trimming hedges. But he is committing a criminal offence,
>under environmental legislation, if he uses an old newspaper
>to light it!
>
>Sadly, a lot of the daft laws are placed at the EU's door, but
>are infact home-grown and blamed by politicians on the EU.


But an awful lot indeed originate in the EU, including this one.

Personally I see the EU as symptomatic of a bigger problem of corruption
in public life, but that doesn't mean there is any reason not to get rid
of it (just because there are other problems too, I mean).

>Presumambly our politicians choose to do this to avoid having to
>explain why they didn't even attemmpt to think through the consequenes
>from the non 9-to-5-with-pension-and-free-health-care brigade[1]
>perspective.


As someone in that category, I couldn't agree more!

Anyway, this is veering off topic so I'll desist. I can't say I'm
surprised at the origin though.

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
In message <[email protected]>
"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> beamendsltd wrote:
>
> > Sadly, a lot of the daft laws are placed at the EU's door, but
> > are infact home-grown and blamed by politicians on the EU.

>
> If a law is even tenuously related to safety, and has been passed in
> the last decade or so, it's almost certain the implementation of an EU
> directive as they've totally taken over safety related law making, and
> when you think about it that covers a heck of a lot of our lives. Yes
> the politicians often (rightly) blame Europe when it's particularly
> controversial, but they are walking a tightrope as they dare not admit
> the truth that we have already lost sovereignty in many areas.
>
> As a designer I have to work within safety legislation all the time,
> and I can't think of one area where it isn't either an implementation
> of a Directive, harmonised with a directive or a directive is in the
> pipeline.
>
> Now of course Europe is moving beyond safety legislation with things
> like the human rights act, and even the proposed changes to the tiers
> of local government (unitary authorities) are a direct result of a
> European dictate that there shall be only two levels of local
> government in the future.
>
> It's perfectly clear that this is all heading towards a federal Europe
> by the back door, but that's so controversial that politicians daren't
> admit it. One thing's for sure, we haven't been asked for our agreement
> to the loss of sovereignty that's already happened (my parent's
> generation was only asked about economic union, not political) and
> aren't going to be asked about future steps. As an example, there was
> going to be a referendum about a unitary authority in Yorkshire but
> when it became clear the government would not get our agreement the
> referendum was cancelled, it had to be since they have no choice in the
> matter so now it's being worked in by the back door instead.
>
> Greg
>


I'll probably get shot for this, but I'm all in favour of a
federal Europe - the sooner the better infact. Near the top
of a very long list of reasons for thinking that is that the
world desperatly needs a second, mature, political and economic
force fo substantial weight.

Tin helmet donnned.....

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive
 
In article <9f56e7694e%[email protected]>, beamendsltd
<[email protected]> writes

>I'll probably get shot for this, but I'm all in favour of a
>federal Europe


Nope. It just merits a sad shake of the head. Power apparently corrupts,
and the more that's concentrated in fewer hands, the more corruption.

If you want your political masters to stay honest, keep 'em poor, as
local as possible, and very much in plain sight at all times. No
smoke-filled rooms, such as the EU delight in.

Incidentally, they just decided to buy the freehold of two buildings
they use in Strasbourg. That's despite the European Parliament only
being there for one week a month (or whatever it is), and everyone,
including the most federalist MEPs pointing out how stupid and wasteful
the whole business is.

>thinking that is that the world desperatly needs a second, mature,
>political and economic force fo substantial weight.


So they can fight each other? Well, you're on the right lines, as
various pro-EU European politicians have been making noises about the EU
having a military force to counteract the US. Please don't try to tell
me that won't end in tears. I don't unreservedly support the US either,
but I do know that a militarised EU is certainly not the way to get them
to see sense.


Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9f56e7694e%[email protected]...

> I'll probably get shot for this, but I'm all in favour of a
> federal Europe - the sooner the better infact. Near the top
> of a very long list of reasons for thinking that is that the
> world desperatly needs a second, mature, political and economic
> force fo substantial weight.
>
> Tin helmet donnned.....


As it happens so am I, we would then have the economic power to dictate what
happens, not follow the Yanks as we've done for the last 60 years, I'm sick
of our PM doing their President's bidding like a poodle. I can't see it
matters much if we're governed by bent politicians in London or bent
politicians in Brussels, they'll still be bent 'cos power ALWAYS corrupts!.

By the way the bits arrived safely this morning Richard, many thanks.

Greg


 
In message <[email protected]>
SpamTrapSeeSig <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <9f56e7694e%[email protected]>, beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> writes
>
> >I'll probably get shot for this, but I'm all in favour of a
> >federal Europe

>
> Nope. It just merits a sad shake of the head. Power apparently corrupts,
> and the more that's concentrated in fewer hands, the more corruption.
>
> If you want your political masters to stay honest, keep 'em poor, as
> local as possible, and very much in plain sight at all times. No
> smoke-filled rooms, such as the EU delight in.


You mean like Smiling Tony's style - i.e. ignore Parliament?

>
> Incidentally, they just decided to buy the freehold of two buildings
> they use in Strasbourg. That's despite the European Parliament only
> being there for one week a month (or whatever it is), and everyone,
> including the most federalist MEPs pointing out how stupid and wasteful
> the whole business is.


Have a look at Parliament on TV - just because the doors are open
doesn't mean anyones in!

>
> >thinking that is that the world desperatly needs a second, mature,
> >political and economic force fo substantial weight.

>
> So they can fight each other? Well, you're on the right lines, as
> various pro-EU European politicians have been making noises about the EU
> having a military force to counteract the US. Please don't try to tell
> me that won't end in tears. I don't unreservedly support the US either,
> but I do know that a militarised EU is certainly not the way to get them
> to see sense.


Woa! Who said anything about military? I said political & economic.

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Simonm.
>


Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive
 
In message <[email protected]>
"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:9f56e7694e%[email protected]...
>
> > I'll probably get shot for this, but I'm all in favour of a
> > federal Europe - the sooner the better infact. Near the top
> > of a very long list of reasons for thinking that is that the
> > world desperatly needs a second, mature, political and economic
> > force fo substantial weight.
> >
> > Tin helmet donnned.....

>
> As it happens so am I, we would then have the economic power to dictate what
> happens, not follow the Yanks as we've done for the last 60 years, I'm sick
> of our PM doing their President's bidding like a poodle. I can't see it
> matters much if we're governed by bent politicians in London or bent
> politicians in Brussels, they'll still be bent 'cos power ALWAYS corrupts!.
>


Quite. I fear the Americans cause almost all the trouble by
failing to appreciate differing cultures (and I have to that
say includes ours), then use the upset as justification to become
"the worlds policeman", as they put it.
There was a fascinating documentary about Jordan/Syria
and the midddle east a while back, which made quite clear the
point that the US's threat of force to get their way just
annoyed everyone, while the EU's seemingly lame quiet diplomacy
and carefully placed aid was actually gaining respect, and
starting to deliver results, even in tricky areas like womens
rights.

> By the way the bits arrived safely this morning Richard, many thanks.
>


Something went right yesteday then!

> Greg
>


Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive
 
In article <1b513f6a4e%[email protected]>, beamendsltd
<[email protected]> writes
>In message <[email protected]>
> SpamTrapSeeSig <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In article <9f56e7694e%[email protected]>, beamendsltd
>> <[email protected]> writes
>>
>> >I'll probably get shot for this, but I'm all in favour of a
>> >federal Europe

>>
>> Nope. It just merits a sad shake of the head. Power apparently corrupts,
>> and the more that's concentrated in fewer hands, the more corruption.
>>
>> If you want your political masters to stay honest, keep 'em poor, as
>> local as possible, and very much in plain sight at all times. No
>> smoke-filled rooms, such as the EU delight in.

>
>You mean like Smiling Tony's style - i.e. ignore Parliament?


Point well taken. As I said, I see the EU as a symptom not the root of
all evil. It's one place where I differ from UKIP's new leader!

>> Incidentally, they just decided to buy the freehold of two buildings
>> they use in Strasbourg. That's despite the European Parliament only
>> being there for one week a month (or whatever it is), and everyone,
>> including the most federalist MEPs pointing out how stupid and wasteful
>> the whole business is.

>
>Have a look at Parliament on TV - just because the doors are open
>doesn't mean anyones in!


Too right, but that doesn't mean it should be like that.

>> various pro-EU European politicians have been making noises about the EU
>> having a military force to counteract the US. Please don't try to tell
>> me that won't end in tears. I don't unreservedly support the US either,
>> but I do know that a militarised EU is certainly not the way to get them
>> to see sense.

>
>Woa! Who said anything about military? I said political & economic.


You didn't, but they have, and if you read around (and I don't mean the
eurosceptic literature!) that's the agenda for a sizable bloc of
Franco-German politicians. And I think they genuinely believe that a
'strong' Europe, facing-down the USA is a good idea. As I said, I don't
support US foreign policies, nor Bliar's lap-doggy tail-wagging, but
trying to operate the EU like the old Soviet bloc (look at the
background of people like Merkel if you think it couldn't happen!), is
exactly what some people intend, and it's frightening.

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1ca1406a4e%[email protected]...

> Quite. I fear the Americans cause almost all the trouble by
> failing to appreciate differing cultures (and I have to that
> say includes ours), then use the upset as justification to become
> "the worlds policeman", as they put it.


And what a wonderful job they're doing!, apparently there's now far more
torture and killing going on in Iraq than under Saddam 8-(.
Greg


 
On 2006-09-22, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:

> And what a wonderful job they're doing!, apparently there's now far more
> torture and killing going on in Iraq than under Saddam 8-(.


Yes, one group of not-a-true-muslims torturing another group of
not-a-true-muslims, and it's all the fault of the Pope. Don't you
just love these peace-loving religions?

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
Ian Rawlings wrote:
> On 2006-09-22, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>And what a wonderful job they're doing!, apparently there's now far more
>>torture and killing going on in Iraq than under Saddam 8-(.

>
>
> Yes, one group of not-a-true-muslims torturing another group of
> not-a-true-muslims, and it's all the fault of the Pope. Don't you
> just love these peace-loving religions?
>


Hmm, how did the Pope get in there?

Stuart
 
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:42:41 +0100, Srtgray <[email protected]> wrote:


> ...
> Hmm, how did the Pope get in there?


Through the woods?

--
William Tasso

Land Rover - 110 V8
Discovery - V8
 
On 2006-09-22, Srtgray <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hmm, how did the Pope get in there?


Popemobile ;-)

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
In message <[email protected]>
Srtgray <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ian Rawlings wrote:
> > On 2006-09-22, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>And what a wonderful job they're doing!, apparently there's now far more
> >>torture and killing going on in Iraq than under Saddam 8-(.

> >
> >
> > Yes, one group of not-a-true-muslims torturing another group of
> > not-a-true-muslims, and it's all the fault of the Pope. Don't you
> > just love these peace-loving religions?
> >

>
> Hmm, how did the Pope get in there?
>


He quoted something out of 14th century book in a speech (or
whatever the pope going on about something is called).
The Usual Suspects are now demanding that all 14th century books
should not be read.

> Stuart


Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive
 
"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9543c86a4e%[email protected]...
> He quoted something out of 14th century book in a speech (or
> whatever the pope going on about something is called).
> The Usual Suspects are now demanding that all 14th century books
> should not be read.


The passage said something to the effect that nothing but evil came from the
Moslem faith, pointing especially to the idea of spreading the faith by the
sword, and of course Catholicism has NEVER been enforced by the sword...
He later explained that these were not his own views, though quite why he
read them at out was left a bit murky!.

Greg


 
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