2012 Disco 4 Just wont start.

Morning guys.

I've been lurking here a while and often have a read up, but I seldom post if at all.
I am posting today because I cannot find a relevant thread concerning my issues and I thought that it may help others once I get it running.

A tiny bit of history as I know this isn't the "introduction section" but I have built / repaired / fixed many Lion engines and I do have a clue what I am doing, but I am missing something here and it has stumped me, so I am asking for any clues to help me get it running or at least point me in the right direction.

I bought this car through the trade not running, The water pump was hanging off, literally, and it cooked.
One of the heads was fubar along with three pistons, but the crank was OK,

So, Three new pistons, new rings all round, hone the bores, new set of tappets, good used head, two skims and valve reseating and new shells all round, perfect. New water pump, two new belts with bearings, new trigger ring, new oil level sensor, new crank sensor, gaskets etc and a rebuild, perfect. Yes I have the timing pin kit and the trigger ring tool.

It spins over and it sounds like it has compression as it should, but it wont fire. if I give it a squirt of easy it will run for a second or two, but I dont want to keep doing that, I now know that it is fundamentally right internally, but it wont start.

I checked the low pressure fuel flow and that is good, the tank pump is kicking in and it is using the right amount of power to run. I have bleed the low pressure fuel feed to the schrader valve.
I crack open one of the injectors and I get a leak, so fuel is getting to the injector, and my snap on is not bonging up a low fuel rail pressure fault.
So, I assume the fuel feed is ok, but I am not totally convinced of this yet, I have a fuel pressure testing kit but the way these injector pipes are routed it is impossible to connect to them, The Snap-On is giving me a high pressure reading but to be honest I cant make head nor tail of these readings, I am not getting any numbers that correspond to the workshop manual, but I am getting a reading, so I assume it is ok enough to start.

So, mechanically it is all good, and it has fuel, that only leaves four options and these are, electrical issues, injector issues, pilot error and something I have not yet thought of, and that is why I am asking on here.

Having a read up on here, someone mentioned a broken / corroded wire, hmmmmm, I dunno, but best to check, so I took the body off again pulled the engine and removed the engine loom and did a continuity check on every single wire to the plugs and all were good, I also double checked the valve timing and replaced the crank sensor and fitted a new trigger ring.

I have a noid test kit, I used this and got nothing at all, so I tested the kit and the led's worked, but I was putting 12 volts to them and I do not know what the voltage of the injectors are so if they are 5 volts as I suspect, then they wont light up anyway, so I failed there, I have a ( far too advanced for me) MAC electrical tester but I cannot get a reading from it once connected to the injector wire when spinning the engine over, I dont know if it doesn't pick up a milli-second pulse, or if there isn't one ???

So...........
My thoughts are now heading down the ECU route, I removed it and there were none of the tell tail signs of corrosion and it looked ok, plus I dont see how it could go bad just sitting there, but ?

Whilst on the electrical page, yes I can confirm the earth lead on the drivers side wheel arch is good, so is the smaller one on the passengers side, the main plugs under the passengers head light are good as is the main one under the rear passengers side wheel arch. all these have been checked, removed and re-checked.

I am now down to three real options, the ECU, the fuel pressure and the injectors.

I am ruling out the injectors as I dont see how all six could have failed.
I am not sure on the fuel pressure issue because it all "seems" ok.
This leaves the ECU.

I looked on here to find any threads on TDV6 ECU failure and I couldn't find any, so either there are none because the issue doesn't exist, or, I can't find any, can you please let me know if this is a possibility and if so I will send the ECU off for a rebuild.

If you are still awake can you think of anything I may have missed that might be the cause of this non starting saga ?

Sorry for the ramblings, but this saves you asking "have you checked this".

Oh, there are a couple of error codes on the Snap-On, but these are the obvious ones because not everything is connected, like ambient temp sensor on the front bumper, Mass sensors ( but these have been fitted, but not at the moment) and normal stuff like oil temp / pressure ect.
There are no serious fault codes present.

I thank you for your time.

Regards

Smiffie.

Thank you for the video above, I have seen this video before as this is about the trigger wheel, as I have said in my post, I put the original trigger wheel back on, and it would not start, not knowing why it wouldn't start I took the engine out and checked everything again including the cam timing, I also checked the whole loom, I then replaced the trigger wheel with a brand new genuine land rover part, and I changed the crank sensor for a new one too.

This issue is definitely not something obvious, or maybe it is ???.

Most common rail need 200 bar in the rail to start?
Maybe take one injector out of the head and plumb it in, but have it firing into a tin/jar etc to see what it is really doing.
Pop the leak off pipe off an easy to get to injector and see if any fuel is being returned.

Thank you Lynall, I have had similar thoughts.

I can have the body off in about an hour, so I am thinking I'll do that and join directly onto the pump, I've parked it up for the minute to give me time to see what you guys might come up with and to consider what to do.

I have started working on something else and it is like a breath of fresh air to work on something else, I am beginning to really dislike this car.

Update on this POS.

The body has been off and on more times than I can remember.

I bought a "supposably" good used high pressure pump, it is giving the same readings as my old one, there is pressure at the rail, and there still isn't any fuel related faults on the Snap-On. I removed number 4 injector and spun it over and there is loads of fuel both from the rail and bleed off pipes from the other injectors.

If I give it a sniff of easy it'll fire up immediately and with a continuous flow of easy it'll run and purr as it should.

So, it isn't mechanical, and it does have fuel, so, I am now going with the ECU.

I called a company that I have used in the past for the Toyota's and they dont do these ECU's, Hmmmm, this is odd I thought.

Is it because normally they don't fail, or is it because they are not coded and it is cheaper to swap them out than it is to have them checked and repaired ? I have 5 Disco 3's here and a Disco 5, but not another disco 4 to check, so I need to ask, are they plug and play ?

There are many for sale on ebay, and non mention re-programming, so it looks like they might by plug and play, also, there are so many for sale that surely sellers wouldn't list them for sale if the buyers kept sending them back because they needed to be coded at a cost of "too much".

So, now I am convinced they are plug and play but I would like to be assured on this, so please let me know if you have any knowledge on this.

Just a reminder, I am getting no error codes on the snap-on for ECU fault, other than the normal things that have not been connected yet. no codes for sensors, or timing etc.

I am pushing this POS out again now to get on with something easy


Regards

Smiffie.

They need to be coded, but can be 'virginised' so the process is the same as replacing a defective one with new.
Are you seeing engine rpm as a valid value?

Thank you for this, is the coding a main dealer job, my problem would be getting to a dealership.

As for rpm, The rev counter does fluctuate on the dial, so I should think it is getting a pulse, I cant understand the multimeter fully but I am getting a continuous measure of readings when I spin it over whilst connected to the injector plug.

If you have any idea or suggestions on what to try next please email me [email protected].

Is there some sort of immobiliser fault telling the car ecu not to fire the injectors?
Have more than one key?

No, it doesn't need a dealer to code, unless you have a relatively 'high level' diagnostics kit, (personally I wouldn't attempt with a 'cracked' version of SDD) I'd look for one of the mobile diagnostics type of outfit and talk to them first to assess their level of confidence & competence to do the work.
I don't think it'd be a security issue (if it was, you'd have a relevant DTC) as it's cranking, the start authorisation is one of the functions that needs a valid security seed in the ECM, along with running the LP fuel pump.
When you say there's DTC for stuff you haven't connected yet, can you list them? there may be a relevant code.

What you have said is exactly what I thought - understood it to be.

If it spins over with the ignition on, then immobilizer is off, plus the low pressure pump is working, so the basic security happiness has been achieved.

The codes I have were, Coolant level - because the header tanks was not fitted so no water.
Outside temp - because the bumper was not fitted.

Air flow meter X2 as it also wasn't fitted.

One other that I forget now, and I ruled that out as it too was of similar ilk.
I will check tomorrow.

Thanks for your help.

Air flow meter won't help as it also provides the air intake temperature - which is relevant to injection quantities and rail pressure. You don't necessarily need there to be measured airflow for it to start and run at tickover, but having them connected will rule out reduced fuelling as the cause.

I have had the air filter on, and filled with water, but I have had the body on and off so many times that I don't bother with these any more. It simply will not fire at all, not even a splutter. but the slightest sniff of easy and it jumps into life.

I don't think the air flow meter connection is the issue

Good news.
There is no bad news, but that is all the good news I have.

I pushed this POS out and parked it up after my last post in Feb.

I have regained some assemblance of enthusiasm to have another go. So it will be back in the workshop later next week.

I have a super duper sparks who does our work for us and I am going to get him to come and test it all, hopefully he will find something, or at least give me something to look at.

I shall report.

Smiff reporting captain.
Well, I am like the dog who swallowed a one pound coin - No change.

So, after a month of waiting for the sparks we set about testing stuff to make sure it wasn't something silly or obvious.

For those that don't want to read the whole post I shall give you the short version.

I bought the car as a non runner, water pump failed and blew the engine up.
All new parts, skim, rebuild and no start. 50 years in this job so I made no silly mistakes.
Took the engine out and fitted a new ring and crank sensor just to be sure. - No start.
Took the engine out, removed the whole loom and continuity checked every wire, all good, No Start.
Took the engine out and replaced the pump with a known good one - no start.
Checked everything for the tenth time, I even stood on one leg and faced south reciting Old Yella, -No Start.

Called the sparks, because I felt it had to be the ECU but these are tricky to test / check as the injectors pulse but at a high voltage and far too quick for a multimeter to pick up. So here we are with the sparks who is really good and has never failed before.

I have been reading the thread by GerRRSportV8 found here ( https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-ro...open-circuit-bank-1-and-2-po62d-po62e.358878/ ) As he seemed to have the same issues but with a 3.6V8. I note the codes are the same so I followed it. The codes being P062D and E, and this is peculiar in my case and I will explain.
These codes represent injector bank 1 and 2 errors. If I clear all the codes and spin it over I get a P062D code, If I then clear the codes and spin it again I get a P062E fault code ??? ( how does that work)
After checking all the obvious and finding nothing I asked the sparks to check for a pulse at the injector, I explained I could not get a reading and it was then that he explained these injectors in the TDV6 3.0 are a ?????? type ( I forget ) and the TDV6 2.7 has the older type and you can read the pulse on those. So he got the silly scope out and checked for a spike, and this is where it got odd.

Connecting a lead to each injector wire the silly scope spiked twice and stopped, to get it to do that again we had to turn the IGN off and clear codes and then check the next injector wire, again it would spike twice and not again, same procedure, right until we tested No 2 injector, it didn't spike at all, zero. so we clear and do it again, same result, no spike, clear and test one of the other injectors and we get a double spike. Five injectors spike and No2 does not. If we unplug No 2 we get no spike at all anywhere.

Supposition coming.

If No2 is unplugged does the ECU recognise a fault and does not deliver a pulse ?
If No 2 is plugged in, does the ECU issue a pulse until it gets to the No 2 injector and recognises a faulty injector and then stops pulsing ? hence why we only get a millisecond double pulse ? - Ah ha, a faulty injector we thinks.
This doesn't make sense as this would mean that if one injector failed the engine would stop, I cannot accept this.

I then buy a good guaranteed used injector and fit that and Geronimo, nothing.

To answer some of the questions from the 3.6 thread.
Injectors - If anyone has ever had a Diesel Mercedes you might know that these injectors are so temperamental that if they are knocked or dropped they will not work. So when I took these out I gently placed them in a box and marked everyone so I knew they went back into the same cylinder, so we can rule that out I think.

As I have said previously in this thread I have checked the fuel flow rate and voltage droppage on the tank pump and all are ok.
Compression is good with a hone, four new pistons and new rings with both heads skimmed, plus it will run for a second using a squirt of " start you bastard".

I read that GerSSPortV8 bought four new injectors and it ran, I dont see how all four were bad but it is good to read that he got it started, plus in my case I am getting no pulse after the initial two pulses.

I think I need a D3 Grandad's help if anyone can find him

To clarify, I clear the codes and do a new scan and there are no faults, I spin it over and then get one code, P062E or D.

Tomorrow I am going to push it out again and hope to have some insight from the knowledgeable one.

Thanks for watching

Regards

Smiffie.

Really ? Not one person, this situation is common with the fault codes and could happen to anyone, maybe if I had a faulty indicator you would all be telling me how to fix it, but something unusual and I get a blank. I have been specific about what I have done to aid anyone who might have the same issue, I will solve this and it could / would be of great help to someone else in the future, but from where I come from you need to get help to give it, not give it to get it.

Shame, but I guess it is what it is.

Maybe if you were a bit more methodical and gave actual measured values rather than 'After checking all the obvious and finding nothing' and mentioning 'spike' but with no indication of voltage or even screenshots.
TBH, If this were brought in to my work, I'd disregard all the above and go back to basics and start again. That method of diagnosis is a carcrash, it's no wonder no-one wants to get involved.

With replies like that it is no wonder people are emailing me with the question - have you fixed it ? it is also the reason why I have not posted the results, and yes it is now running perfectly.

Having owned and run a specialized car forum for over 20 years I know enough to know that unless one doesn't give all the details of the repair people will ask the obvious questions like, " have you checked the fuse - fuel - battery - timings etc" the boring relevant information I have added is also helpful for others to do all these checks and fixes in hopes they can fix their cars.

I have had people like you spoiling it for the others on my forum they didn't last long.

Please try to remember what you should have been taught when you were supposed to be listening, If you don't have anything nice to say then say nothing.

Smiffie said:

I have had people like you spoiling it for the others on my forum they didn't last long.

Please try to remember what you should have been taught when you were supposed to be listening, If you don't have anything nice to say then say nothing.

Click to expand...

Smiffie said:

Really ? Not one person, this situation is common with the fault codes and could happen to anyone, maybe if I had a faulty indicator you would all be telling me how to fix it, but something unusual and I get a blank. I have been specific about what I have done to aid anyone who might have the same issue, I will solve this and it could / would be of great help to someone else in the future, but from where I come from you need to get help to give it, not give it to get it.

Shame, but I guess it is what it is.

Click to expand...

Seems you didnt either.

The thing is its about learning, others helped and I agree you gave much info. But again no real measurement's/readings.
You said you had readings from the fuel rail and didn't understand, but yet didn't post readings for others to see and maybe say good or bad.

Maybe nobody knew anything else you could have done with the info you have provided, which was why it went quiet. So if its all about learning and helping, Tell us all what your problem was for the next poor sod who goes searching.

You also have to remember we are "mostly Joe public" a few in the vehicle trade, and very few JLR mechanics (ex or present) As you are/were an owner/ran a specialized car forum you will understand that sometimes members cant fix it over the internet, not every fix comes from the helpers, sometimes it needs to come from the OP.
So its up to you to decide if you want to be part of a knowledge sharing experience.

J

I think this is the first time I have ever on this forum come across someone who has solved a problem and then deliberately withheld the solution.

How would @Smiffie feel if someone did that on his forum?

Some on here know tons, some on here don't know much.

@Graculus is one of the former group.
But the more you know the more you need to know details to be able to give proper help.

I think this is a real shame, and I don't even own a D4.