200TDI starting problems

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miserable git

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Hi All, new on here tonight as I have exhausted just about everything I can think of. due to my 300tdi being nicked 2 years ago. I ended up with a defender 90 galv chasis with a 200tdi disco engine. was running finr until about 4 months ago. the odd time the starter would sound like it was just spinning and not fully engaging. in the last few weeks it has become more often up until it is now every time. Jobs I ave done are replaced engine bay wiring loom when I found a few cracks in the cable insulation... that didnt fix. got a refurb bosch starter...that does just the same as the last one....disconnected all the earths cleaned connections and replaced....that didn't help. bought a new battery....still no joy. So finally today it wouldn't turn over at all. ended up in a taxi to work. got in tonight and decided to dissconnect the electrics from the starter and just re-connect the main lead to the battery terminal. then placed another LT wire from the +ve terminal with an inline swith to the soloniod spade. Thus eliminating any electrical problems from the car wiring. I also took off my fan and alt belt incase they were resisting. tried turning it ofer and got the same noise of what sounds like a sticking motor.....what I have noticed is each time the starter tries to kick in the crank rotates slightly. and then randomly after about 10 - 20 flicks of the switch the engine will turn sometimes only half or one turn sometimes 2 or 3 before it then kicks the starter back out again. Any help or advice would be much appreciated before I end up dropping the gearbox and whipping out the engine to find it was something daft ! Cheers
 
Hi, Thanks for the reply. How likely is it I have two starters with the same symptoms in the car and yet they both seem to work correctly when tested on the bench ? bearing in mind the new one I got is a bosch ? Cheers
 
ANGELO DAMATO said:
Sounds like a duf starter to me , Unless your motor is tight/sized= unlikely .Is S bendix ok?
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If its a new starter and you are sure of that then its the ring gear on the flywheel, all you have to do to test this is turn the engine a bit by hand and then try to start it. An engine always stops at the same bit so its one of these bits thats fooked and turning the engine takes it to a good bit and heh presto.

Gearbox or engine out, cut it off and sweat a new one back on, but if you dunt have a big blow torch its a garage job.
 
If you can get your head up there :) take the starter out and have a look through the hole with a torch and have a look at what the teath (ring gear) is like on the side of the flywheel.........
 
david451 said:
If its a new starter and you are sure of that then its the ring gear on the flywheel, all you have to do to test this is turn the engine a bit by hand and then try to start it. An engine always stops at the same bit so its one of these bits thats fooked and turning the engine takes it to a good bit and heh presto.

Gearbox or engine out, cut it off and sweat a new one back on, but if you dunt have a big blow torch its a garage job.
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Nah, just wait till lil lady goes out, fly wheel into freezer and ring gear into oven for a bit, works for me. fo ook knows what happen she catches me.
 
ssmn1234 said:
Nah, just wait till lil lady goes out, fly wheel into freezer and ring gear into oven for a bit, works for me. fo ook knows what happen she catches me.
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Only problem with that method is that if you dont get it seated right first time you're fooked coz even with a blow torch it aint gona heat back up again and its a new ring gear. Fitted loads of them and even with the torch method you have to be quick coz the flywheel takes all the heat and you dont get a second chance, and thats heating it constantly as you are lining it up.

And secondly the wife is gona kill you when she finds out you had a fokin, heavy, manky flywheel in her freezer, and all her carrots have defrostid.:eek:
 
david451 said:
Only problem with that method is that if you dont get it seated right first time you're fooked coz even with a blow torch it aint gona heat back up again and its a new ring gear. Fitted loads of them and even with the torch method you have to be quick coz the flywheel takes all the heat and you dont get a second chance, and thats heating it constantly as you are lining it up.

And secondly the wife is gona kill you when she finds out you had a fokin, heavy, manky flywheel in her freezer, and all her carrots have defrostid.:eek:
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Ah, the risks we take to get our landies sorted, thats only minor compared to some things her gadgets get used for, all par for the course isn't it:D. seriously though, if you mark the worn bit of ring gear position on flywheel befor you remove it then put it back on so the worn bit is away from the mark a bit you can't go wrong.
 
ssmn1234 said:
Ah, the risks we take to get our landies sorted, thats only minor compared to some things her gadgets get used for, all par for the course isn't it:D. seriously though, if you mark the worn bit of ring gear position on flywheel befor you remove it then put it back on so the worn bit is away from the mark a bit you can't go wrong.
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Cant take a ring gear off tho without cutting it, perhaps I read this wrong and that you want to use the old ring gear but move it around a bit, it cant be done I'm afraid.
 
we used to remove ring gears by drilling with cobalt drill bit, smack with chisel and lump hammer. warm ring gear up with oxy torch till dull red on axle stands and suitable grips-drop it on
 
fanatic said:
we used to remove ring gears by drilling with cobalt drill bit, smack with chisel and lump hammer. warm ring gear up with oxy torch till dull red on axle stands and suitable grips-drop it on
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Thats the way I did it anorl, with a little tap around the edges to get it sitting fine. In the days when inertia starters were used it was common practice, not so common now tho with the pre-engaged.
 
I have never had a problem removing the ring gear from any flywheel, so that it can be rotated, just place flywheel on clean flat solid surface and with a good heavy drift and lump hammer, work your way around the ring gear, round and round untill it's off, I have used this method as it is required on many vehicles, even a Cat Dozer and also a International tractor.
 
ssmn1234 said:
I have never had a problem removing the ring gear from any flywheel, so that it can be rotated, just place flywheel on clean flat solid surface and with a good heavy drift and lump hammer, work your way around the ring gear, round and round untill it's off, I have used this method as it is required on many vehicles, even a Cat Dozer and also a International tractor.
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I guess its possible, maybee?, never tried it since if the ring gear is fooked and even if its just one section then it tends to mangle the starter motor when it gets to the bad bit again as it jumps the teeth. Most engines are gona have at least one to two whole revolutions of it before it fires up, so the starter motor is gona dive into the bad bit again and again and destroy the starter motor or damage it.

Then it all starts again, the fooked starter starts to tear up another section of ring gear, thats what caused it in the first place, a faulty starter

I certainly never seen it done and cant imagine how it would work.
 
david451 said:
I guess its possible, maybee?, never tried it since if the ring gear is fooked and even if its just one section then it tends to mangle the starter motor when it gets to the bad bit again as it jumps the teeth. Most engines are gona have at least one to two whole revolutions of it before it fires up, so the starter motor is gona dive into the bad bit again and again and destroy the starter motor or damage it.

Then it all starts again, the fooked starter starts to tear up another section of ring gear, thats what caused it in the first place, a faulty starter

I certainly never seen it done and cant imagine how it would work.
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your reasoning is a valid one, though generally it is only the feed-in bevel on the teeth that wear, it is also wise to check the pinion drive of the bendix for wear and replace if necessary.
 
ssmn1234 said:
your reasoning is a valid one, though generally it is only the feed-in bevel on the teeth that wear, it is also wise to check the pinion drive of the bendix for wear and replace if necessary.
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Dont get me wrong I guess anything is possible, just never seen it, I imagine the cost of one on a dozer might be a good reason for knocking it off, however at that level you must have had a big big hammer coz they are fokin tight wif a capital T, when you split em they bang like fook so much tension on em.

Charlie is a bit older than me, perhaps he's seen it done, I can remember a ring gear or two spinning on the flywheel and needing pinned but cant remember the reason for it.
 
Thanks for all the advice. I have marked the crankshaft pully and there are two worst positions ! which led me also to thinking of the ring gear. however I have whipped out the starter agin and took some pics and hopefully attached them here. now to me this doesnt look lik it's anywhere near sha**ed so I'm off to the landy specialist at the weekend to swap the new motor. armed with pictures for him to look at as he's a bit of a Guru is our Charles !.... I'll keep you all posted Cheers.
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Hi Everyone, Thanks for your help. well It's fixed. Took both starters to the local Landy Man. both bench tested and came back fine. checked photos of flywheel all ok. so he gave me a another NEW starter. however this one not a Bosch but a copy and Identical to my original starter. Just put it in tonight and it works perfect ! yipeeee !

Cheers all for your help and advise.
 
miserable git said:
Hi Everyone, Thanks for your help. well It's fixed. Took both starters to the local Landy Man. both bench tested and came back fine. checked photos of flywheel all ok. so he gave me a another NEW starter. however this one not a Bosch but a copy and Identical to my original starter. Just put it in tonight and it works perfect ! yipeeee !

Cheers all for your help and advise.
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The mechanic obviously did not look at photo 3rd from top then, as the ring-gear is chewed out if you ask me, it'll possibly be OK while the new pinion gear is nice and sharp, but after a while you gonna be having same problems.
 
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