200tdi / 300tdi Lumpy Idle & Smoke Fixed!

jamesmartin said:

the injection pump has transfer pump which will if system perfect suck fuel from tank ,not from dry ,you would have been better running flex hose and hose clips less to go wrong olives on plastic pipe can be hard to get long lasting seal however professional it looks

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Thanks for the info. I could never get the fuel line to seal properly with rubber fuel line which was the reason why I decided to go down the nylon route but asnin most casesbwith these things, it was probably just one joint that was causing the problem, regardless of however many times I have gone over them, tightening everything up and double checking!

I'm just about to pm you too
-Tom

Lumpy idle & Blue / White Smoke FIXED AT LAST

Well finally, after near enough 24 months of relentless tinkering, head scratching, shouting and swearing I have found - and getting well on with curing the lumpy idle and blue / white smoke problem that has plagued my 200tdi engine.

The fault is purely and simply the injectors. Some of you who remember my post last year regarding the strip down and rebuild of my 200 tdi injectors (see http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f7/howto-200tdi-injector-refurb-110575.html) may find this quite surprising. I found it surprising but I was damn right certain enough to take them back out of my engine and have them tested a third and final time (this time back with the firm who tested them for me in the first place), just to make sure that they weren't misbehaving.

All four came back off the test bench with leaking seats (a leak between the needle and the nozzle body which causes pre-detonation, knock, smoke and a rough idle), terrible spray patterns (incomplete combustion & lumpy running) and low opening pressures. I did have them setup "properly" by another local diesel "specialist" who supplied me with the nozzles, so i can only assume it is a combination of badly machined Firad nozzles and poor workmanship. I guess that's what you get when you try to do a job on the cheap though. I am now back in the hands of the diesel specialists who did the injector test originally (a fantastic firm by the name of DC Woodhead & Partners) who are well on their way with getting them back into good working order but they too have had problems. They informed me that they have worked through 12 to 16 Bosch nozzles, none of which have met their standards in terms of producing a good spray pattern (they're now made in India / Brazil, not Germany). They are currently sorting the problem out with Bosch and all being well I should have them back by the end of next week.

As for the time being, I am running on a set of injectors provided by the good old James Martin (thank you very much sir) and the lumpy idle and blue / white smoke has all but disappeared. My 90 seems comparatively underpowered mind, but they are old injectors after all. I'll post a video when I get mine back, just to show how well it goes

-Tom

Got there in the end then

fanatic said:

Got there in the end then

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Sure have. I've earned a beer I think Just got the new power steering system to sort now. It's on, it just doesn't feel like it did last week when I installed it. Perhaps I've just got used to it? That's what everyone keeps telling me... they said that about my idle problem though didn't they, imperfectionists

-Tom

Perseverance or what!

Tom - i'd treat yourself to at least two beers

Station House said:

Perseverance or what!

Tom - i'd treat yourself to at least two beers

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I already have It all stands to reason though. I noticed the blue / white smoke problem in the cold spell that we had last year. Worn injectors that are either leaking into the cylinder or atomising incorrectly become much more apparent in the colder weather. A great deal of cold fuel (over-fuelling from the injection pump on startup) is injected into a cold cylinder that is drawing in cold air and the air / fuel mixture is not burnt efficiently. Obviously in the milder weather, the fuel sits at a higher temperature in the fuel lines and the air drawn into the cylinder is much warmer too, so the problem becomes less apparent because the air / fuel mixture burns more efficiently. The lumpy idle was just a result of one injector ****ing into the engine and all four nozzle spray patterns being completely ****e. If only I had put two-and-two together a while back :doh: Glad it's nearly sorted though!

I'm currently in the process of making a comparison video to show the difference in power that refurbished injectors have on the performance of a 200tdi engine

-Tom

Nice mate, glad you got there in the end. I'm still having the same problems with mine, but i'm reluctant to keep throwing money at it as i'm (dare I say it?) looking at selling it to make way for a Disco td5. I need something that will cuise on the motorway but still be entetaining on green lanes and P+P days. Let us know how you get on with the injectors, I know that 3 of mine are well past thier best!

dazzx10r said:

Nice mate, glad you got there in the end. I'm still having the same problems with mine, but i'm reluctant to keep throwing money at it as i'm (dare I say it?) looking at selling it to make way for a Disco td5. I need something that will cuise on the motorway but still be entetaining on green lanes and P+P days. Let us know how you get on with the injectors, I know that 3 of mine are well past thier best!

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A TD5 will do you well, perhaps the last sensible engine that Land Rover ever used and they don't half go well too (even without any modifications / remaps). I will keep you informed on my progress

-Tom

poor injectors often burn pistons

jamesmartin said:

poor injectors often burn pistons

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That's one thing that was on my mind. There's no crank case pressure (hot or cold) so I don't think its burned a hole right the way through but I know where there is a flexible inspection probe / camera that I could borrow to examine the guts with

-Tom

Pos,

How much does the garage charge for rebuilding the injectors, including new nozzles if needed?

I've now aquired a spare set for my 200tdi and intend having them sorted then they can be swapped with the current ones.

bluehaze said:

Pos,

How much does the garage charge for rebuilding the injectors, including new nozzles if needed?

I've now aquired a spare set for my 200tdi and intend having them sorted then they can be swapped with the current ones.

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It varies from place to place but as a ballpark figure, I would expect to be paying roughly £200 - £250. For that price you will get a set of new nozzles installed, an ultrasonic clean of all the internal components, pop pressures set and a good wire brushing of the outer casing. They should look and work like new. I replaced the nozzles myself and the job cost no more than £100 including having the pop pressures set but I have more recently discovered that the nozzles I bought were terrible quality and as such, the injector has been misbehaving. I am now using DC Woodhead & Partners based in Pudsey, Leeds and they are on with trying to source a good set of nozzles from Bosch and installing them for within the region of £215.

-Tom

I'm quite prepared to do the job myself (being a tight arse I know) but which is the best place to buy the nozzles?

Anyone know anywhere in Hampshire that can do the job or sell the nozzles?

Not sure that I trust the ones on fleabay - call me cynical but....

bluehaze said:

I'm quite prepared to do the job myself (being a tight arse I know) but which is the best place to buy the nozzles?

Anyone know anywhere in Hampshire that can do the job or sell the nozzles?

Not sure that I trust the ones on fleabay - call me cynical but....

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Do not buy the nozzles on ebay by any means. Even the listings that state they are genuine Bosch nozzles are more than likely Chinese knock-offs. That said, they will more than likely be better quality than genuine Bosch nozzles which are now manufactured in India and Brazil. My diesel shop has been through 16 Bosch nozzles, none of which were any good. 'Monark' are the ones to go for. They're made in Germany and they get a lot of praise. After that, Bozio (Italian) are also well regarded. It's just a matter of whether or not your local diesel shop can cross reference and get hold of the nozzles from the desired manufacturer.

-Tom

pos said:

Certainly...

All parts purchased online from SSL Diesel Parts (SSL Diesel Parts - Low Cost diesel fuel Parts.). They're based in North Uist, off the North West of Scotland and deliver next day! Customer service is exceptional.

1 x Fuel Filter Head (non-standard but takes standard spin on filter):
Bolts to bulkhead, 1 pipe in from lift pump, 1 pipe out to injection pump
Single filter head screw on filter type from SSL diesel

3 x 1M Length(s) 8mm Nylon Fuel Pipe (Comes as a 3M length):
Fuel tank > lift pump, lift pump > filter head, filter head > injection pump. Use brass tube supports to prevent crushing at compression joints
plastic nylon tubing from SSL diesel Parts plastic tubing

1 x 1M Spill Rail / Leak-Off Hose:
Three pieces between injector spill rail banjos - plenty left spare for next time
Fuel Leak of pipe/spill pipe from SSL diesel Parts Fuel leak

3 x 8mm Straight Brass Compression Fittings:
Fuel pickup pipe > nylon supply pipe, fuel filter head > injection pump pipe (see photo), injection pump > tank return pipe
Brass Straight Compression Fittings BSC from SSL diesel

1 x 10 Pack 8mm Brass Tube Supports:
Insert into end of all nylon pipe lengths to re-enforce
Brass Tube Supports pk10 BTS from SSL diesel Parts Unit of

2 x 2 Kit 1/2" UNF Filter Head Tube Nut Kit:
Used at In / Out on lift pump, In / Out on fuel filter head
Filter Head Tube Nut Kit from SSL diesel Parts filter head

1 x 10 Pack Copper Washers:
Use between any existing banjo joints
Copper washers pk10 CW from SSL diesel Parts Unit of sale

1 x 10 Pack 8mm Olives (just in case):
Just in case you bugger up any of the existing olives
Brass Olive Barrel Type pk10 BOB from SSL diesel Parts Brass

1 x 8mm Plastic Push-Fit Hose Joiner:
I used this to join the return line from pump, to existing return line back to tank
Plastic Push-In Straight from SSL diesel Parts Plastic



And a few photos just to show you how everything comes together (excuse my tatty wiring, it needs a new engine loom making up):

8mm Nylon fuel pipe & 8mm pickup pipe joined with an 8mm compression fitting (I coated the whole thing in Waxoil afterwards). The nylon return line does not need replacing, so this stayed put:

8mm Nylon fuel pipe joins the lift pump unions (1/2" UNF) using a filter head tube nut kit:

Supply pipe from lift pump enters the fuel filter head, and a pipe with nice clean, filtered diesel leaves the filter head towards the injection pump, again using a filter head tube nut kit. I used both ports on the right to keep the engine bay tidy:

I doctored the genuine 200tdi filter head to injection pump pipe to take a compression fitting. Essentially, I cut away the plastic pipe that was there as standard, and spliced in a nice new section of 8mm nylon pipe. As standard, this pipe connects to the top of the fuel filter head by a way of a banjo. The new fuel filter head has a different port layout, which is why this pipe had to be adapted:

-Tom

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Can not get your photos

redbow said:

Can not get your photos

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You ain't gonna either, he hasn't been on since 2015