Classic 1982 Range Rover New Starter and sudden Earthing Issues

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J

Jim_P

Active Member
Posts
54
Location
ATHENS GREECE
Hey there,

Posting once again in order to sort out electrical gremlins. So everything was absolutely fine but the Rangie had stood for a while and the battery was low. Charged it and its fine. However i had noticed my starter was lagging a bit so i replaced it with a new Quinton Hazel unit. Installed that.

Today i went to connect the battery up and sparks started coming from the starter area. It actually managed to melt the eyelet of the starter earth strap that attaches to the body. I removed the negative quickly but damage had already been done to the eyelet.

I thought initially that the starter connections were touching on the body of the unit and shorting out. However upon closer inspection they did not.

I did search online for a new starter earth strap but the units i found did not have the eyelet that attaches to the body. The parts catalogue does show it however but i am not 100% if its needed or not. I think it is needed. Because i saw that the cables available were eyelet less i proceed and retested the circuit by simply and quickly engaging the negative terminal on the battery. However this time smoke started coming out from the back of the Rangie. It was the fuel sender ground melting actually ! I noticed it and immediately removed the terminal. Replaced the ground successfully and for now that's where i am at.

I am currently expecting a new starter earth strap which will arrive tomorrow. I have however a couple of questions.

Is the earth strap body attaching eyelet required ? Or simple the chassis ground is enough ?

After reinstalling the old starter i tried to very quickly test it (not at all an ideal way but with what i had and where i was its what i could do) i did connect the battery's negative terminal but smoke started coming out again from the same place. (that was before i replaced the sender ground wire).

So i am thinking its two things.

One, the body earthing eyelet is required in order for the starter to earth through that too and the already melted sender wire allowed for a less resistive path

Two, the new starter had an issue (internal windings etc) right from the start and cocked me up totally.

I will either find an eyelet and attach the single starter earth strap to the body too or add an additional ground strap to the body.

Anyway, please let me know what you can make out of all this.

Cheers !
 
Jim_P said:
Hey there,

Posting once again in order to sort out electrical gremlins. So everything was absolutely fine but the Rangie had stood for a while and the battery was low. Charged it and its fine. However i had noticed my starter was lagging a bit so i replaced it with a new Quinton Hazel unit. Installed that.

Today i went to connect the battery up and sparks started coming from the starter area. It actually managed to melt the eyelet of the starter earth strap that attaches to the body. I removed the negative quickly but damage had already been done to the eyelet.

I thought initially that the starter connections were touching on the body of the unit and shorting out. However upon closer inspection they did not.

I did search online for a new starter earth strap but the units i found did not have the eyelet that attaches to the body. The parts catalogue does show it however but i am not 100% if its needed or not. I think it is needed. Because i saw that the cables available were eyelet less i proceed and retested the circuit by simply and quickly engaging the negative terminal on the battery. However this time smoke started coming out from the back of the Rangie. It was the fuel sender ground melting actually ! I noticed it and immediately removed the terminal. Replaced the ground successfully and for now that's where i am at.

I am currently expecting a new starter earth strap which will arrive tomorrow. I have however a couple of questions.

Is the earth strap body attaching eyelet required ? Or simple the chassis ground is enough ?

After reinstalling the old starter i tried to very quickly test it (not at all an ideal way but with what i had and where i was its what i could do) i did connect the battery's negative terminal but smoke started coming out again from the same place. (that was before i replaced the sender ground wire).

So i am thinking its two things.

One, the body earthing eyelet is required in order for the starter to earth through that too and the already melted sender wire allowed for a less resistive path

Two, the new starter had an issue (internal windings etc) right from the start and cocked me up totally.

I will either find an eyelet and attach the single starter earth strap to the body too or add an additional ground strap to the body.

Anyway, please let me know what you can make out of all this.

Cheers !
Click to expand...
If the engine to chassis earth strap is missing, the when you try to activate the starter, current will try to flow through parts not intended to take the load.
 
Datatek said:
If the engine to chassis earth strap is missing, the when you try to activate the starter, current will try to flow through parts not intended to take the load.
Click to expand...
No it wasnt missing. The only thing missing was the eyelet that attached that same strap to the body. The chassis earth point was present of course.
 
Jim_P said:
No it wasnt missing. The only thing missing was the eyelet that attached that same strap to the body. The chassis earth point was present of course.
Click to expand...
That was the type of eyelet that that attached the the starter earth strap and was secured via a bolt to the bodys wing bottom.
 

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I suspect you've connected an earth wire to one of the positive live starter terminals - the wire with that eyelet at the bottom of the wing goes to a bellhousing bolt & is a main engine earth wire.
 
Ratae said:
I suspect you've connected an earth wire to one of the positive live starter terminals - the wire with that eyelet at the bottom of the wing goes to a bellhousing bolt & is a main engine earth wire.
Click to expand...
Yep i did just that ! I did that yesterday night after working all day long on a guys Disco 2 as he is refitting the original pre facelift headlights and it was quite involved as the shop that fitted the facelift ones butchered the bodywork and totally bootlegged the wiring.

I wanted to work on my Landy and said well its nighttime so what can you do. But i cocked up big time. All sorted now (see what i did there).

My only worry is whether i caused any damage elsewhere apart from the sender ground. I think i haven't as it did only sort out through that ground but lets see, fingers crossed !
 
Jim_P said:
Yeah buddy, i did that precisely ! Tired and no light makes you do wonders and then sit around all day long the next day figuring out what you messed up.

I guess i should be more patient.
Click to expand...
Get yourself a decent led torch. Definition with a good light makes a massive difference to small details that can set your Landy on fire in this case😬🤪
 
Mark Piercy said:
Get yourself a decent led torch. Definition with a good light makes a massive difference to small details that can set your Landy on fire in this case😬🤪
Click to expand...
Indeed ! I tend to use my phone most of the times. But its crap and drives me bloody mad !

I did actually purchase a torch that can also be fitted around the users head. Its on its way to me. Lets see if that works better. To be honest if i had a clear mind i wouldn't have messed it up. Not so much of a ''seeing'' issue as much of a thinking one lol !
 
Jim_P said:
Indeed ! I tend to use my phone most of the times. But its crap and drives me bloody mad !

I did actually purchase a torch that can also be fitted around the users head. Its on its way to me. Lets see if that works better. To be honest if i had a clear mind i wouldn't have messed it up. Not so much of a ''seeing'' issue as much of a thinking one lol !
Click to expand...
Just chalk it up to experience and move on. It's a good man who admits he's dropped a b*ll*ck. :)
 
Rubberknees said:
Just chalk it up to experience and move on. It's a good man who admits he's dropped a b*ll*ck. :)
Click to expand...
Yep that's what I think I will do. Yeah when I am wrong and the mess is on me i would be the first to admit it. Relearning every day, even the basic stuff it seems.

However now that everything is back and installed properly i am still shorting the vehicle through the sender ground. I suppose that body grounding eyelet (the one that was on the earthing strap that went from the chassis to the starter bolt) is required after all. I can't think of any other reason the short circuit is still present apart from the starter itself having been completely knackered.

Let me know what you guys think.

Cheers !
 
Jim_P said:
Indeed ! I tend to use my phone most of the times. But its crap and drives me bloody mad !

I did actually purchase a torch that can also be fitted around the users head. Its on its way to me. Lets see if that works better. To be honest if i had a clear mind i wouldn't have messed it up. Not so much of a ''seeing'' issue as much of a thinking one lol !
Click to expand...
I have a powerful battery light from Lightcraft, quite compact and has a magnetic base so can be stuck on any bit of steel under the bonnet to light the job in hand. Not expensive.
 
Jim_P said:
Yep that's what I think I will do. Yeah when I am wrong and the mess is on me i would be the first to admit it. Relearning every day, even the basic stuff it seems.

However now that everything is back and installed properly i am still shorting the vehicle through the sender ground. I suppose that body grounding eyelet (the one that was on the earthing strap that went from the chassis to the starter bolt) is required after all. I can't think of any other reason the short circuit is still present apart from the starter itself having been completely knackered.

Let me know what you guys think.

Cheers !
Click to expand...
The earth strap is essential.
 
The earth strap is still required. If you leave it off then current operating stuff on the engine & gearbox will try & find any route it can which will overload other thinner wires.
Used to be a thing with the original Minis which could weld the inner throttle cable to the outer!

If the wires are now all in their proper positions but you've still got the short through the starter motor I'm thinking you've melted & welded something up inside the starter motor.

Does it do the same now with the old one? - bearing in mind you might also have done the same to that one.
 
Datatek said:
The earth strap is essential.
Click to expand...
Yep, i know. Its just that it had an extra attaching point apart from the one on the chassis and the one on the starter bolt. I am wondering whether that extra attaching point that mounted at the lower part of the front wing is required.
Ratae said:
The earth strap is still required. If you leave it off then current operating stuff on the engine & gearbox will try & find any route it can which will overload other thinner wires.
Used to be a thing with the original Minis which could weld the inner throttle cable to the outer!

If the wires are now all in their proper positions but you've still got the short through the starter motor I'm thinking you've melted & welded something up inside the starter motor.

Does it do the same now with the old one? - bearing in mind you might also have done the same to that one.
Click to expand...
The earth strap is on. Chassis and starter bolt are the points where it attaches since the body eyelet broke off. Of course i wouldn't leave it off. Yep the old still produces the same issue.

However i have now determined and confirmed both myself and through a trusty source that the body attaching eyelet of the earth strap (not only the chassis one) is 100% required and that's my issue. Autosparks have the correct earth strap which will arrive soon along with a new starter.

So issues fixed. Thanks everybody for the assistance !
 
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