Considering an engine swap- options?

[FlyingPete]

While I like my 19J and it's been reasonably good, I quite fancy something with a little more 'go' but without losing too much of the originality of my 90. Not sure yet if its eventual demise is something that's inevitable or just likely. I'm considering swapping it out for something better.

I can already hear the 'fit a cheap 200tdi' suggestions coming, but realistically there just aren't many cheap rotten discoverys with nearly-new 200s left now. A few years ago it would have made more sense. Most of the advice out there seems to date from 10 years ago. So what are the realistic options in 2016?

I've seen several old 90s that have been converted to a 300tdi. I know it's a little more involved but obviously it can be done, and the engines themselves are a little newer. I'd quite like an automatic (if I can figure out where to put the gear lever) so the engine and gearbox as a complete unit could be a potential option. I know it's got more electronics but with the two being transplanted together it shouldn't be an issue.

2.5 petrol seems like a good, reliable engine. Keeps the originality there as it was a standard option in '88. But power wouldn't really be any better than the TD, and fuel consumption reports are...mixed.

Anything else out there that works well?

 

[zeaphod]

If you don't have to have the auto, a petrol 2.5 with LPG conversion might be an option. Easy engine swap, and LPG will give you some economy. Not really any more power, but it should rev nicely and be quieter. My 2.25 with an uprated head would get the 88" to 65mph no bother.

 

[FlyingPete]

If you don't have to have the auto, a petrol 2.5 with LPG conversion might be an option.

Auto is a nice-to-have rather than a must-have. I do prefer a good automatic but have no problems with a manual.

I guess the advantage to this route is it could be done in two stages- get the engine swap done first, then think about LPG. What are the options for the gas tank location? I have a 6-seater CSW so don't really want a gas cylinder in the back...

 

[james6546]

What about a mercedes OM606 or an engine from a BMW 330d? Both have been done before I think

 

[300bhp/ton]

While I like my 19J and it's been reasonably good, I quite fancy something with a little more 'go' but without losing too much of the originality of my 90. Not sure yet if its eventual demise is something that's inevitable or just likely. I'm considering swapping it out for something better.

I can already hear the 'fit a cheap 200tdi' suggestions coming, but realistically there just aren't many cheap rotten discoverys with nearly-new 200s left now. A few years ago it would have made more sense. Most of the advice out there seems to date from 10 years ago. So what are the realistic options in 2016?

I've seen several old 90s that have been converted to a 300tdi. I know it's a little more involved but obviously it can be done, and the engines themselves are a little newer. I'd quite like an automatic (if I can figure out where to put the gear lever) so the engine and gearbox as a complete unit could be a potential option. I know it's got more electronics but with the two being transplanted together it shouldn't be an issue.

2.5 petrol seems like a good, reliable engine. Keeps the originality there as it was a standard option in '88. But power wouldn't really be any better than the TD, and fuel consumption reports are...mixed.

Anything else out there that works well?

The big question here is how much money do you want to spend, how much bolt in vs R&D and bespoke work and will you be doing this yourself. Any other needs for the vehicle, such as intended use and how many miles you do?


A 200Tdi is the easy option. And frankly there are loads about still. Just pop on ebay and buy an engine. Fit it, see how it runs and if it needs work, address it then.

And lets face it, the age difference between a 300Tdi and a 200Tdi is pretty meaningless.

I'm not against a 300Tdi, but there are no real world benefits to the 300Tdi. It is no more reliable (arguably less), makes the same power, same torque, same mpg, same tuning ability, same size and same weight. But fitting a 300Tdi is more work and cost. Effort and money which might simply be better spent refreshing a 200Tdi.

Worth noting a Tdi is more noisy and less refined than the 2.5TD.

As for other engine options. Most of the Defender/Disco range is all viable. A Td5 will fit and is arguably a far superior engine to the Tdi (I'm Tdi owner...). But will be a cost notch up from a Tdi.

The 2.5P is a backwards step IMO. Ok it's smooth, but you'll get more like Series performance from it. The 2.5TD is in many ways a better engine and more powerful.


If you want petrol power, then the 2.0MPi from a Discovery might be an option. They have more torque low down than a 2.25P (so probably equal to a 2.5), but a lot more power. But they will feel a little revvy. Chances are they will out drive a Tdi on the road, but mpg won't be great and not so good off road or towing. There is of course the 2.0 Turbo variant used in various Rover cars, which really wouldn't be all that difficult to fit. 200hp straight off and 300hp available if you fancy beefing up the pistons and rods.

V8's are worth considering. You can buy a 3.9/4.0 or 4.6 pretty easy. And they are way smoother than a Tdi and not massively behind on mpg if you run them on EFI.


As for converting to auto. The auto will for the most part blunt performance, reduce fun and increase mpg. But they can work well if it's what you want. Most of the diesel offerings will be sluggish by comparison. A Tdi can feel very sluggish with an auto box on it and an auto D2 Td5 is way less peppy than a manual one. Remaps and mods can improve them however.


If you want looking at more involved options. Then there is the 2.8 BMW S6 as used in the South Africa 90's (and BMW cars). This also means it's not so difficult to look at BMW diesels. And in theory even things like the BMW V8's.

There are other engines such as the Lexus V8 and of course the superb Chevy LS1 and newer variants. There are loads of different kits for the Chevy engines to run many different gearboxes and/or mate to the LT230 transfer box. It'll be a bespoke build, but using lots of off the shelf items.

Even bigger projects could be using the drive train from a modern D3/RRS with the 2.7 TDV6 or the Jag V8's.


But the skill level and fabrication requirements and cost ££££££££££££ goes significantly up the more exotic you go.

 

[Discokids]

My 110 has a disco 200 in it. My turbo is 19j and is knackered. Trying to find parts to replace that, bodging the exhaust, struggling to access the starter, bodged oil lines, bodged coolant pipes, bodged pas hoses. Easy fit? I think the only easy part is that it bolts to the chassis and gearbox. I think, looking at new and s/h parts availability, that a 300tdi would prove more cost effective in the long run.

 

[Marmaduke]

I've got a 300tdi in mine that replaced my old 19j, the only modifications I did was the engine mounts, lowering the rad, exhaust cos I kept the original gearbox and the downpipe wouldn't go over the crossmember and swap the side of the power steering reservoir. Starter motor is a doddle to get at. I just bought a knackered discovery with a couple of weeks MOT on it and gutted it on my drive. I have got a 200tdi on eBay at the mo though

 

[flat]

i put a defender 200tdi into my 2.5na and it just bolted in and i didn't have to mod or bodge anything.
Was more expensive than a disco mind but makes it way easier in future parts wise etc

 

[discomania]

While I like my 19J and it's been reasonably good, I quite fancy something with a little more 'go' but without losing too much of the originality of my 90. Not sure yet if its eventual demise is something that's inevitable or just likely. I'm considering swapping it out for something better.

I can already hear the 'fit a cheap 200tdi' suggestions coming, but realistically there just aren't many cheap rotten discoverys with nearly-new 200s left now. A few years ago it would have made more sense. Most of the advice out there seems to date from 10 years ago. So what are the realistic options in 2016?

I've seen several old 90s that have been converted to a 300tdi. I know it's a little more involved but obviously it can be done, and the engines themselves are a little newer. I'd quite like an automatic (if I can figure out where to put the gear lever) so the engine and gearbox as a complete unit could be a potential option. I know it's got more electronics but with the two being transplanted together it shouldn't be an issue.

2.5 petrol seems like a good, reliable engine. Keeps the originality there as it was a standard option in '88. But power wouldn't really be any better than the TD, and fuel consumption reports are...mixed.

Anything else out there that works well?

Go the 300tdi route and just do a good job of it - you want originality but if I was doing the conversion now I would go TD5, when I did my 300tdi conversion TD5's were still too new and expensive. I might consider this next if I don't go for a traction motor and 500Kg of batteries.

I have a 300tdi in my 90 with the military short shaft R380 so I had a box that could take the torque without having to mess with different gearboxes and tunnels and brackets and things. So everything is pretty much factory with the engine bay looking pretty much factory to be honest. My 300tdi sits much further back but it kept things all a bit simpler.

If you want auto though I would say go the full hog, get all the bits from an auto disco and just take your time over doing a really good job.

I would pull the seat-box as well as the floors and tunnel to give you plenty access.

Look at the ECR (East Coast Rovers) website, a US LR workshop who do some beautiful work. They fit 300tdi autos into 90/100's quite a bit.

 

[FlyingPete]

So it looks like 300tdi manual or auto is a good option- really just engine mounts to move and some plumbing (aside from the possible transmission swap.) 2.5 petrol would be the most 'period correct' solution as it was an option in '88. A 2.5p running through a 19J turbo could be interesting...

I like the idea of electric too! Lots of R&D to be done with that option, as well as figuring out whether it would work for me.

 

[lynall]

The 300 auto went edc ie electric in 96 n reg and got 120 bhp compared to the previous 111bhp, the only difference is the inj pump and injectors, edc and pre edc the 300 auto is pretty limp power wise, the edc version chipped can really shift.
The auto gearbox has no electrics as such, apart from the lock out which stops you starting it in gear and removing key etc, they went electric control with the td5.

 

[TheQ]

I went for a 200tdi and transfer box from a disco that was then scrapped. yes the engine is a little tired, but it will Probably do another 200,000. Its still vastly better than a 19j in power and fuel consumption. I'll likely be doing a head rebuild in the next couple of years I don't need to but it will make things a little less smokey.

 

[Disco1BFG]

The 300 auto went edc ie electric in 96 n reg and got 120 bhp compared to the previous 111bhp, the only difference is the inj pump and injectors, edc and pre edc the 300 auto is pretty limp power wise, the edc version chipped can really shift.
The auto gearbox has no electrics as such, apart from the lock out which stops you starting it in gear and removing key etc, they went electric control with the td5.

And EDC can easily be removed from a 300TDi - in fact I would advise it as a pre-emptive strike as number four injector and sensor, ERR3337 is no longer available.

I have done it to mine. Tuned to 145 HP, it is not limp in the least!

 

[lynall]

And EDC can easily be removed from a 300TDi - in fact I would advise it as a pre-emptive strike as number four injector and sensor, ERR3337 is no longer available.

I have done it to mine. Tuned to 145 HP, it is not limp in the least!

I assume yours is a manual? the auto really kills what power there is, basically the throttle becomes an on/off switch, the td5 auto is the same, they only got decent auto boxes when the D3 came along.

How did you get 145 out of the 300?

 

[Disco1BFG]

I assume yours is a manual? the auto really kills what power there is, basically the throttle becomes an on/off switch, the td5 auto is the same, they only got decent auto boxes when the D3 came along.

How did you get 145 out of the 300?

Nope, its an Auto. ( Don't do manuals due health ).

You'll get me on my soap box talking about all this electronic "stuff" in the new ones. Electronics, especially LR electronics dies in my ownership, in this climate, and I thus made a conscious decision to stay completely away from it. I could tell you about the new RR we had, which had total electrical failure on the day we picked it up.... and the fact that of the 8 months we owned it, it was here and useable for 6 weeks... but like I said, don't get me on my soapbox.....

I didn't get 145 out of the 300, this guy did(!):-

http://www.jeremyjfearn.co.uk/intercooler.htm

Throttle as an off switch - not mine.

 

[danny6801]

Cummins engine and speak to arron if you want any advice on the install as there are all kinds of parts you can buy to make it fit with the gearbox and transfer box.

 

[nesponge]

I wouldn't even consider a 4 cylinder petrol in a land rover...

The V8 is the only logical solution and very close to the 4 cylinder in terms of MPG.

 

[chrisstdt]

Cummins if you have endless time and money to fit and are a good fabricator and Tdi if you want a quick cheapish conversion

200 tdi will drop onto your existing mounts but if its a disco engine its either hard to route the exhaust or you can get a 300 manifold and turbo to make it easyer

300 tdi im putting one into my lightweight and the L/H mount you can use a 200 part and mod the exhaust slightly and the R/H you can move the chassis mount or buy a bolt on item to fit round the oil filter (defender only and not sure how available they are but ive seen then go on ebay for around £100) exhaust easier to do and both have very similar wiring and cooling systems

Rover / Landrover V8 also good but depends if you want fuel economy (either use alot or maybe LPG)

 

[lynall]

Nope, its an Auto. ( Don't do manuals due health ).

You'll get me on my soap box talking about all this electronic "stuff" in the new ones. Electronics, especially LR electronics dies in my ownership, in this climate, and I thus made a conscious decision to stay completely away from it. I could tell you about the new RR we had, which had total electrical failure on the day we picked it up.... and the fact that of the 8 months we owned it, it was here and useable for 6 weeks... but like I said, don't get me on my soapbox.....

I didn't get 145 out of the 300, this guy did(!):-

http://www.jeremyjfearn.co.uk/intercooler.htm

Throttle as an off switch - not mine.

Well I can only say as I found when I owned my 97 auto, throttle was defo an on/off switch.

The car then went to the same guy you used for an intercooler and chip tune (have to say poor workmanship on the drilling and intercooler pipe flanging), we went for a test drive and I was disappointed as it wasnt much better than the plug in box it was currently running, he was gutted that I was disappointed as I was expecting great things.

I can believe the edc version getting 145 bhp when chipped as thats only 20 more than it had anyway, but would need to see dyno results before I believed it from the std injection pump, do you have dyno results?

 

[Disco1BFG]

Well I can only say as I found when I owned my 97 auto, throttle was defo an on/off switch.

The car then went to the same guy you used for an intercooler and chip tune (have to say poor workmanship on the drilling and intercooler pipe flanging), we went for a test drive and I was disappointed as it wasnt much better than the plug in box it was currently running, he was gutted that I was disappointed as I was expecting great things.

I can believe the edc version getting 145 bhp when chipped as thats only 20 more than it had anyway, but would need to see dyno results before I believed it from the std injection pump, do you have dyno results?

I am surprised you found the throttle so, suspect that's where I would have started. I have a few auto D1's and they have all been pretty good - though one of them could be very on fuel...

I can understand a large intercooler not really working with EDC, as AFAIK, EDC can't take account of it - its too simple a system - ( which IME, is why you need an external box to play with it ), it was a half way house to try and get the auto's to go a bit better, which it did.

Not sure that the injection pump is standard either - boost pin anyone?

The dyno results are somewhere, but, as we are currently living in a ******* caravan in our garden four YEARS into a TEN WEEK repair to our home, you'll be holding your breath for a while if you want me to post them. You would have to drive mine to know the difference..