GrumpyGel said:

Have you taken the Synergy Box out of the equation?

i.e. have you tried putting the car back to standard.

Click to expand...

no not yet ..
aim to do just that on tuesday ..
i've a spare hardly-used bosch maf ..
and aim to replace the cam sensor while i'm at it .. as i've a new one as spare
( also a camshaft sensor .. but i don't think that's the issue )

( just googled £££ for the fuel regulator and fuel rail sensor .. felt unwell afterwards :-/ )

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just having a coffee-cig break .. yeah decided to get on with this this morn.
soooooo .. removed ron-box ..
and out of the ron box harness comes all this little white bits
both at the rail connector and the maf connector
can def. see corrosion on the ron box to lr harness plug-pins
( odd .. i cleaned those yesterday )
so am thinking / hoping the cause be corrosion in the ron-box harness
~~~~~~~
right .. back to work
~ S ~

work finito ..

fitted spare bosch maf
ron-box removed ..
scanned for codes .. none were logged ..
started up much better now .. no reluctance ..
did a quick live reading ..
( engine misses a bit between 1500>2000 rpm
( that's now't new as when i last had a bosch maf fitted it did the same ..
( hopefully won't happen when engine under load 'n getting turbo pressure

~~~~~~~~

now off for a test drive

~ S ~

just went for a 50 mile drive

loss of power / surging on part go-pedal has been banished
idle n running were smoooooth ..
that misfire between 1500>2000rpm stationary went away as well ..
again was reluctant to start when hot :-/
so now to replace the cam sensor as i suspect the recent heatwave shortened it's life
[ to be fair it is the original sensor .. 14yr n 194k miles old ]

not too keen on the bosch maf .. good old low rpm hesitation before 'go' .. blah !!

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`S`

well .. today got round to replacing the cam sensor
happy to report .. for now .. it fired up on-the-button ..
shall see tomorrow how it starts after a good run 'n warmed up
~~~`
also refitted my ' digibooster 1' ..
hopefully it Might help the slight response lag at low rpm with the bosch maf
( the bosch maf is as new .. only did 4 miles with it before i refitted the pierburg maf - synergy2 system )

actually i were surprised how the engine ran .. i.e. power wise .. when i took a spin yesterday ..
totally stock .. except for the air intake mod. [ 'n s.s. straight thru exhaust back-box ]
basically proved to me that the a.i.mod was a worthwhile thing to do .. all in all

[ https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/intercooler-problem-mod.126484/ ]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ S ~

60 mile trip today ..
all's well .. :-]
so .. corrosion in the ron-box harness
and a dying cam sensor ..
those were the faults ..
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though the sooner i get the ron-box back in working order ..
and the pierbug maf re-installed .. the better
don't give a rats bum re. the extra fuelling ..
but the bosch maf and its factory mapping get a major thumbs down
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` s `

update :
was hoping to write 'Solved' in the header
but am still having issues ..
~~~~~~~`
a quick question for now ..
( and i aim to email rover ron with the same query )

does anyone know if .. on the 'synergy2a' module ..
whether the Fuel and Maf circuitry are totally separate ?
or do they share part of the overall circuitry ?
( i imagine the power supply be common
( so .. apart from that probability

e.g. if the fuel harness is totally disconnected from the fuel rail
( and replaced with the factory harness / plug )
but the synergy2a maf harness still be connected
would that effect the maf signal ?

will explain weird symptoms in a bit ..
for now i needs to seriously chill-out

~~~~~~~~
cheers ..
~ S ~

todays efforts:

well .. .. yesterday spent some time cleaning all the plugs and sockets on the 'ron-box'
toothbrush and a narrow paint brush came in handy
then .. made boots between cable harness end .. and the back of the plugs /sockets
the idea was to get rid of the possibilty of h20 ingress .. humidity or rain ..

noted there was some white powdery stuff inside the connectors and on some pins
lead-sulphate corrosion probably ..

so with all connectors clean and protected .. i refitted the ron-box ..

engine started fine ran great for the first 3 miles ..
once engine were up to temp. .. same issues
loss of power .. surging on part go-pedal downhill and on flat ..
a tad of diesel knock on acceleration .. smell of exhaust stronger than usual
( did not notice any unusual smoke from exhaust ..
( idled fine ..

i stopped .. turned of engine .. and switched off the fuelling on the ron box ..
it ran fine for the next 20 mile .. and .. strangely ..
felt as if the power was better than stock ..

( it did not start up promptly
( but did jump into life when cold first thing in the morning

i stopped .. walked dog .. did some shopping
started engine .. acted more like a wind-up-toy
( engine still warm )

on way back .. after first hill climb .. went to climb second hill
and power dropped ..
( ron box fueling still switched 'off'
( maf switch still 'on'

i stopped again and removed the ron-box harness to the fuel rail sensor
and refitted the stock harness to same
Maf switch still 'on'
[ bosch maf fitted .. ron-box on the right setting for same ]

now major loss of power .. i mean a real slug
thankfully only one more steep hill to climb
on the flat it were embarrasingly SloW !!!

came to last hill .. that normaly can be taken in 4th gear
had to leave it in second gear .. and it would not rise above 2800 rpm ..

so just now .. removed ron-box alltogether ..
at least before .. when setup like that .. it ran fine
except acceleration power under 1750/1800 rpm was krapp ..
but at least above that it powered as factory 'normal'
( but still started like a wind-up-toy when engine be warm
( hard to say if that's normal with the bosch maf
( been many years since it were in stock mode
so for now i'll just have to adjust driving style to suit

ps: the bosch maf was virtually new .. only a few miles on it
but it has sat in a closed box but unsealed for the past year ..
( can they degrade like that ?? )
i aim to get some maf cleaner spray ..
and some proper electrical contact cleaner
( used the last of it cleaning the harness connectors )

pss: all other fuel system parts check out as 'ok' with the hawkeye
but am aiming to get a leak back test kit for the injectors
camshaft sensor recently replaced .. like a few days ago

hp.pump fuel regulator was replaced a year ago ..
as the prev. one .. although 'new' proved to be faulty ( an LR oem type from the dealership )

have yet to rescan for fault codes .. but engine dash light did not illuminate today
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

have attached some pics of the ron-boxcircuit board
pic with circled solder joints were sent back to me as possible solder issues
( i sent pics to a friend who be an electrical engineer who circled the 'Maybe Solder' issues )
some 'pins' are not soldered at all .. and i will check with rover-ron to see what he might say re the pic.
( as in Maybe some pins were not meant to be soldered .. i do not know )
2 pics attached .. one each side of the circuit board ..
and 1 pic with circled possible issues re the soldering
please comment if you have knowledge of such things )

ps .. this whole saga of issues started on the hottest high humidity day of the year .. so far ..
~~~~~~~~~
cheers
~ S ~

~~

~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ps: opening the images in a new browzer tab or window will show them at proper larger size
~~~~~~
~ S ~

Can you post some better photos, so I can take a look.

The main processor has had it's markings removed, but I suspect it's a PIC.

Some detailed pictures will definitely help me look into the workings of the unit.

Nodge68 said:

Can you post some better photos, so I can take a look.

The main processor has had it's markings removed, but I suspect it's a PIC.

Some detailed pictures will definitely help me look into the workings of the unit.

Click to expand...

cheers can do in a bit
ronbox in workshop attic ..
i just need to take it apart and try for some more pics
( the ones up are the biggest i could take with my iphone
( and they do show in full size if downloaded or viewed in another web browzer window
( i.e. there not shown full size when cliked on ..
( but an alternate clik right or left mouse button should give an option menu
Maybe .. will depend on browzer i guess

i can take some pics with a proper camera .. but will need to charge up the battery 1st
so maybe not today ..
will add any new pics to this thread when i take them ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
ps: cheers for offer to look at them ;-) !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

btw: couple of previous comments from my friend .. ( btw .. he's not familiar with fl1 diesels )
he's right into repairing and building audio / music instrument gear and electronics and developing related software .. ..
( he used to work for ITV .. be retired now )

i posed some questions to him .. regarding heat and humidity etc ..
he did mention the ronbox c.board should have been protected with something like conformal spray when built

re: the ronbox circuit board:
" Do you know if the circuit board utilises any surface mount components or is the solder used in manufacturing lead free? Both prone to damage by heat/vibration....... "

re. the description and data of the fuel rail sensor in the M47 rover .pdf file
and the ronbox c.board :
"The circuit board doesn't look ruggedised to me. Unused pins of the cpu don't appear to have been soldered and there's no protective conformal coating. It is possible that the cpu is damaged.
The 0 to 70mV signal is scaled in the sensor to 4.5V max which makes more sense now. It’s rare for modern microcontrollers to play up but voltage spikes on their analog input pins could degrade performance ie the A2D converters accuracy. "

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ S ~

Nodge68 said:

The main processor has had it's markings removed, but I suspect it's a PIC.

Click to expand...

that seems to be the opinion of m'friend .. .. [ recent email ]

" Btw: without seeing a schematic it’s impossible to say how well the microcontrollers input/ outputs are protected. I do know that PIC or Atmel microcontrollers (device markings rubbed out) are easily damaged by voltage spikes.
Ruggedised automotive environment microcontrollers are available (+£) but they still need additional external protection components.
Chances are though is that they’re ok but it’s hard to prove. "

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Nodge68 said:

Can you post some better photos, so I can take a look.
The main processor has had it's markings removed, but I suspect it's a PIC.
Some detailed pictures will definitely help me look into the workings of the unit.

Click to expand...

ok .. just now .. found camera .. seemed to have enough juice to operate ..
bit of a problem .. the operator [me] be clueless at moment as to how it works ;-[[[[
i've not used in years .. and didn't really get to grips with the ref. manual ..
[ that i also need to find ] .. it's a cannon xs30 ..
tried a few pics .. but failed to take one ..
so hit the video button .. that worked ..
for now can only supply a screenshot from the vid ..
of underside of c.board
looks a bit cruddy .. no idea what the crudd be ..
tried to brush it off .. but may have made it worse :-(
( other side of board seems to look clean
( but realise you'd like to see the components
will attempt to refresh camera operating know-how
and take pic of other side of board
( thanx for your patience in advance ;-)

1294 x 772 jpg attached
( top switch be the maf
( next down .. the fuel
(at bottom the selector dial


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
~ S ~

have ordered some non-residue contact cleaner spray
an aim to clean the bosch maf ..
sitting in an unsealed box for 12month ..
maybe the sensor plate has accumulated something ..
[ the exposed wire / diode on the side has a couple of discolouration spots ]
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EDIT .. got camera sorted .. took pics ..
blahh .. wrong size :={ too small ..
back in a bit ..

ok .. pics of topside attached ..
1200 x 1600 size (180 rez )
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ S ~

Does the IC nearest the cables have a number on it?

I can't see anything on the board which I can identify as a voltage regulator, so this leaves me to believe that it's using the 5 Volt supply from the MAF or Rail sensor. This supply would be stabilised as it comes from the EDC directly. This would effectively eliminate any possibility of voltage spikes getting to the Ronbox. However I would like to have seen some form of secondary projection on this unit, but I can't see any.


The solder looks pretty shiny, which suggests lead solder, and it's hand soldered too. The board should have been conformally coated, but clearly hasn't.

It looks like the MAF and FR are feeding in and out of the large IC, which means it has A/D conversion capabilities.

I'd love to know exactly what IC has been used, but suspect it's a PIC 16F876 which has the following capabilities.

"This powerful (200 nanosecond instruction execution) yet easy-to-program (only 35 single word instructions) CMOS FLASH-based 8-bit microcontroller packs Microchip's powerful PIC® architecture into an 28-pin package and is upwards compatible with the PIC16C5X, PIC12CXXX and PIC16C7X devices. PIC16F876 features 256 bytes of EEPROM data memory, self programming, an ICD, 5 channels of 10-bit Analog-to-Digital (A/D) converter, 2 additional timers, 2 capture/compare/PWM functions, the synchronous serial port can be configured as either 3-wire Serial Peripheral Interface (SPI™) or the 2-wire Inter-Integrated Circuit (I²C™) bus and a Universal Asynchronous Receiver Transmitter (USART)."

So this device could do the job just fine, and would be the IC I'd choose, if building such a unit myself.

As to why it's gone wrong? It could well have just failed, as these things happen.

I'd love to know exactly what IC has been used, but suspect it's a PIC 16F876 which has the following capabilities.

Click to expand...

i rubbed off the white ink or whatever it was ..
what were underneath .. has been obviously scratched off ..

Does the IC nearest the cables have a number on it?

Click to expand...

MCP6244
E/P and "E3" in a circle
1343FD3

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am going to do some journeys in 'stock mode'
IF all's well .. and conclusion points to the ron-box
i'll send it to him for a checkup 'n fix if needed
~~~~~
was looking at bosch mafs online ..
really difficult to know what's fake and what's real
i mean .. they're all 'inserts' 4sale .. from £33 to £100+
couldn't even find one that included the casing .. as per oem

thinking maybe i'll get ron's mafam unit ( cheaper than a real bosch maf )
so i can use the pierburg maf ..
comparing the 2 .. don't know about the electronics ..
but the airflow thru sensor be totally different ..
bosch has an 's' flow .. the pierburg 'straight thru'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the box is still open, you could lick a fingertip and wipe it over where the markings on the chip were ground off. It often helps you to read the markings that are left. That and tilting it to catch the light differently.

paul99 said:

If the box is still open, you could lick a fingertip and wipe it over where the markings on the chip were ground off. It often helps you to read the markings that are left. That and tilting it to catch the light differently.

Click to expand...

the white stuff were wiped off with a cleaning fluid on paper towel
under that be what looks like shallow length-wise gouge marks ..
about a mini flat end screwdriver's width ..
no indication of text / numbers whatsoever .. vanished ..
[ i did have it under a good light 'n viewed it at various angles ]
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i'd go take it apart again to double check .. but ..
it's a sumatriptan arvo. for me [surface pressure changes]
and was too much .. had to lay down for a while
have just got up .. still feeling 'iffy' ..
a.t.b.
` s `

hd3 said:

MCP6244

Click to expand...

It's a quad OP AMP, so has 4 separate operational amplifiers in the package. This is what is taking the signals from the sensors and boosting the outputs, which are then passed to the PIC micro for processing. What's odd is the MCP6244 could pretty much do the job on its own, without using the micro at all, so the PIC micro is doing something more clever than simply boosting signals.

Oh and the MCP6244 quad OP AMP costs about 50 pence.

I would guess that the PIC would read the incoming signals from the sensors, tweak them a bit and send out a different level signal to the ECU. Effectively telling fibs to the ECU so it supplies more or less fuel in certain situations and asks for more or less boost from the turbo than would usually happen.