V8made · Oct 10, 2017

Hi, got a strange issue with my gearbox on my l322 2004 4.4 v8, I need some advice from the legendary gearbox gurus on here, ok here goes, firstly the problem started with the occasional vibration at low speeds when accelerating gently (felt a bit like a cattle grid) however the car does not do this at all if I use the Manual setting it only does it in D and sport and there is also a deep growl (best way I can describe it) sounds a bit like when you wander on the rumble strip on the motorway hard shoulder, this noice is only heard mainly when holding the speed at around 50 on the motorway and gets louder if you put your foot down a bit, however if you press down hard and make the car drop a gear the noice goes away, then yesterday it really played up, cruising at 50 in 5th then without warning (in manual) the car drops to 3rd and will not select any higher (in either Manual or D) I continued at 50 with the revs at about 4000 for a mile as no warnings came up on the computer, then came to a roundabout and as I slowed down the car dropped to 2nd at about 3000 revs then refused to select 3rd until I revved it to 4000 then it would select 3rd I then put it into D and it selected 4th and 5th and ran as normal, (I was only 2minutes from home at this point) my first thought was it was potentially and electrical fault but I am now not sure and found a few posts on here listing similar problems but nothing identical. Sorry to write such a long essay!! And help would be much appreciated

holidaychicken · Oct 10, 2017

Bemble or Saint will elaborate but with my limited experience it sounds like torque converter failing causing vibration and holding onto gears sounds like transmission overheat strategy which are two symptoms you don't really want together.
If the vibration stops when you hit 56 mph ish and if your Rev counter needle is moving very slightly in time with the vibration then I would say torque yconverter is on its way which unlike the TD6 shouldn't trash the rest of your transmission.
If it is overheating then that could be filter, pipes, fluid, cooler, rad blocked or could be the transmission is also in a bad way.
See what the others say but at some stage an oil and filter change will give you an idea

V8made · Oct 10, 2017

Thanks holidaychicken, I have just been out in it now and yes I have noticed the revs do fluctuate with the vibration, normally as soon as it vibrates I take my foot off and the vibration stops but today I held it on to see what happened

thankfully nothing dropped off or blew up but it vibrates like a deep heavy vibration (sounds like something from Ann summers!) then the revs jump up slightly, another wave of vibration then the revs jump up again, However what I find strange is why it doesn’t vibrate in Manual as soon as you put it in D it vibrates, back into Manual and it’s fine, or does manually selecting the gears somehow shut down the torque converter? And I thought the TC only locked up at 56mph and it vibrates at any speed, mainly low speed when accelerating gently, or is it locking up at any point due to it failing and that what’s causes the vibration? I agree that I need to check out the fluids and do a filter change, which is a job I will get onto next week, I was just wondering if driving it with a Dying TC is ok or am seriously risking damaging something, I have never had a TC fail (had everything else fail on my old p38

) so just wondering what happens if it dies, I understand that putting that kind of vibration through the drivetrain is not good at all, but in Manual it seems fine, so (with rose tinted glasses firmly in place) I keep thinking if I drive it in Manual I’m not hurting anything....

I do know it will need doing asap I just wonder if I should park her up until I have the time to sort the TC or if it’s ok to keep using the car? Thanks for your help so far,

Saint.V8 · Oct 10, 2017

As Holiday Chicken says, this is classic TC Lock Up Clutch failure.....

The ZF box in the L322 was mated to an ECU that is mapped to slip the Lock Up CLutch in the TC to prevent engine vibrations and knock from being transmitted through the gearbox instead of fitting a flex plate or similar.

Over time the TC LUC friction material wears out and it starts to judder, this can be accompanied by a failure of an O ring between two drive clutch packs caused by a failed roller bearing....this allows the clutch packs to move about and wear away this O ring, then you lose hydraulic pressure to the drive pack and Trans Fail Safe comes up.....but the main issue on the ZF is the worn LUC in the TC.

Over time, this dumps debris into the gearbox oil and clogs the filter, wears away other friction discs in the box and given enough time will eat itself!

The ZF box can be 'ignored' for a while when the symptoms begin, but if it is starting to go into trans overheat program and hold lower gears, the judder is more pronounced and other such issues...then it is time to seriously take the box out and refurb.

If caught early, you can get away with just swapping out the TC, but if it starts messing around in other ways, time to open up the box and look at the clutch and drive pack friction plates for signs of over heating and wear.

Bemble/RRPhil is the de facto genius on the ZF box....so search and search hard for all his posts on the matter.

V8made · Oct 11, 2017

Thanks saint for the in depth information there, I feel both reassured and terrified at the same time!

think it’s a case of fluids and filter first to see how bad it looks and then decide if it’s time for a new box or just the TC, where is the best place to get a new or rebuilt TC from? I had a recon box for my p38 from ashcroft Which included the rebuilt TC but I don’t think they do boxes or TC’s for the L322 or maybe they do now?

Saint.V8 · Oct 11, 2017

V8made said:
Thanks saint for the in depth information there, I feel both reassured and terrified at the same time! think it’s a case of fluids and filter first to see how bad it looks and then decide if it’s time for a new box or just the TC, where is the best place to get a new or rebuilt TC from? I had a recon box for my p38 from ashcroft Which included the rebuilt TC but I don’t think they do boxes or TC’s for the L322 or maybe they do now?

A member on here called Bemble (also known as RRPhil on other forums) can supply parts - or there is JPAT who rebuild the TC's or I think Sussex Autos (or something of similar name) @holidaychicken may know othe rsources as he has been brave enough to remove and rebuild his entire gearbox (with Bembles help over the forum) so kudos to him!

holidaychicken · Oct 11, 2017

Hi Ant, hope you and the tribe are doing well

When mine was on the way I only had the slight vibration while holding a constant light throttle up a gradual incline but this one sounds more advanced although I thought the symptoms were the same in manual but HRH Bemble would know.
I stripped my transmission and replaced seals and any potential bearing failures, replaced the cooler , pipes and stat, and had the TC refurbished amongst every other thing that was anywhere near.
As Saint says search Bemble / RRPhil as I did and digest.

You can get everything from Phil if you drop him a message, he also sells complete transmissions that are better than new if you need one.

or you can get from https://jpat.co.uk/index.html

I had my TC refurbed here http://www.sussexautos.co.uk/

if you do everything and cant get hold of Phil then valve body check would be worthwhile - i think this is the one Phil uses http://www.valvebodyuk.co.uk/

V8made · Oct 25, 2017

holidaychicken said:
Hi Ant, hope you and the tribe are doing well
When mine was on the way I only had the slight vibration while holding a constant light throttle up a gradual incline but this one sounds more advanced although I thought the symptoms were the same in manual but HRH Bemble would know.
I stripped my transmission and replaced seals and any potential bearing failures, replaced the cooler , pipes and stat, and had the TC refurbished amongst every other thing that was anywhere near.
As Saint says search Bemble / RRPhil as I did and digest.

You can get everything from Phil if you drop him a message, he also sells complete transmissions that are better than new if you need one.

or you can get from https://jpat.co.uk/index.html

I had my TC refurbed here http://www.sussexautos.co.uk/

if you do everything and cant get hold of Phil then valve body check would be worthwhile - i think this is the one Phil uses http://www.valvebodyuk.co.uk/

Thanks for the all the info, sorry for taking a while to get back on here but had some issue with my internet, I think i will do the same as you @holidaychicken and rebuild the gearbox as it seems if I drive for more than an hour it starts holding the low gears so could be just a block rad but think I will park her up, drop the box and get stripping! As next year we are taking the car on an 8 hour drive!!! So need to fix all the little issues before then... oh and the big issues too!! Thanks for the help so far, will update here once I drop the oil and pan off as will get a better idea of what’s going on then, cheers Pete

Saint.V8 · Oct 25, 2017

V8made said:
Thanks for the all the info, sorry for taking a while to get back on here but had some issue with my internet, I think i will do the same as you @holidaychicken and rebuild the gearbox as it seems if I drive for more than an hour it starts holding the low gears so could be just a block rad but think I will park her up, drop the box and get stripping! As next year we are taking the car on an 8 hour drive!!! So need to fix all the little issues before then... oh and the big issues too!! Thanks for the help so far, will update here once I drop the oil and pan off as will get a better idea of what’s going on then, cheers Pete

Do a search for holidaychickens threads....he did an epic thread on the rebuild of his box, with the help of Bemble/RRPhil with loads of photos, info, details and dimensions.....was an epic read from what I can remember.

V8made · Oct 25, 2017

Saint.V8 said:
Do a search for holidaychickens threads....he did an epic thread on the rebuild of his box, with the help of Bemble/RRPhil with loads of photos, info, details and dimensions.....was an epic read from what I can remember.

Thanks will have a good search later and hopefully find it, many thanks Pete

V8made · Oct 30, 2017

Ok had a good read of @holidaychicken thread... I am slightly terrified now but I am going ahead regardless my only question (as of yet) is do you think this is doable on your own, as my only assistant would be my dad who is 70 and will be purely there to supply tea, plasters and make sure I don’t lose it and set fire to the car! (Oh and get crushed by the gearbox) I will doing the work entirely on my own, I will be working on my gravel drive way with car sitting on some railway sleepers.... also for some reason it won’t let me see any of HC photos it is telling me to upgrade to 3rd party hosting? Is this because I am using an iPhone? I will unpack my computer tonight and give it a try on that, just to clarify I am aware I am completely mad, but I am strangely excited about getting the ‘old girl’ better again, will try and get in touch with bemble once I have the box out I know what I’m dealing with, I think the box will need attention as if you drive for over 1hour it starts holding the lower gears.

brianp38dse · Oct 30, 2017

The photo problem is to do with photobucket who want a lot of money to store your pics now, a lot of the guys have lost uploaded images.
might be worth getting a sheet of plywood to put under the car to make it easier to move things around on and gives you a more comfortable surface, I normally use hard board but that is on a paved drive makes spills easy to deal with and you can slide about on it but you need stronger than that to jack the box.

holidaychicken · Oct 30, 2017

I've still got all the pics, photobucket want a tonne of money to allow 3rd party hosting so i can upload photos to this site instead.
The transmission complete with transfer box weighs about the same as a challenger 2 tank, well at least it feels like it so I would not attempt without a transmission jack. i really struggled to get just my transfer box back in on my own, i took that out after my transmission rebuild for no reason whatsoever it turned out, and had to employ the help pf my neighbour and that was an awkward b*******d even with two of us.

You need to make sure the vehicle is high enough to clear the transmission and jack combined.

This is the jack i looked at which i hope i never have to buy.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Draper-T...354699&hash=item2ed22d10f6:g:~78AAOSwirZTtCqG

We improvised and i also had a monster to help me that can be seen in the photo, after helping me he changed back into the pic below.

This is him in his sunday best.

gold rover · Oct 30, 2017

holidaychicken said:
I've still got all the pics, photobucket want a tonne of money to allow 3rd party hosting so i can upload photos to this site instead.
The transmission complete with transfer box weighs about the same as a challenger 2 tank, well at least it feels like it so I would not attempt without a transmission jack. i really struggled to get just my transfer box back in on my own, i took that out after my transmission rebuild for no reason whatsoever it turned out, and had to employ the help pf my neighbour and that was an awkward b*******d even with two of us.

You need to make sure the vehicle is high enough to clear the transmission and jack combined.

This is the jack i looked at which i hope i never have to buy.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Draper-T...354699&hash=item2ed22d10f6:g:~78AAOSwirZTtCqG

We improvised and i also had a monster to help me that can be seen in the photo, after helping me he changed back into the pic below.

View attachment 134230
View attachment 134231

This is him in his sunday best.
View attachment 134232

Nothing to add re the clever stuff, but if you want to put your pics back on your 'how to', try using tinypic. I've changed all my third party hosting to them.

holidaychicken · Oct 30, 2017

cheers GR, i'll have a look, it wasn't a how to it was more of a long rambling horror story with a happy finish

It would not have been possible without the guidance of Bemble AKA RRPhil so OP, if you search the net for his work there is a mass of information out there.
He does have his own business so if you are buying parts or getting a refurbed TC then i would contact him, he used to offer workshops where you can rebuild your own transmission at his premises. He also tested my valve body but I'm not sure he is still doing it.

holidaychicken · Oct 30, 2017

To give you an idea of height, we made these ramps and put the car into off road height.

V8made · Oct 31, 2017

holidaychicken said:
I've still got all the pics, photobucket want a tonne of money to allow 3rd party hosting so i can upload photos to this site instead.
The transmission complete with transfer box weighs about the same as a challenger 2 tank, well at least it feels like it so I would not attempt without a transmission jack. i really struggled to get just my transfer box back in on my own, i took that out after my transmission rebuild for no reason whatsoever it turned out, and had to employ the help pf my neighbour and that was an awkward b*******d even with two of us.

You need to make sure the vehicle is high enough to clear the transmission and jack combined.

This is the jack i looked at which i hope i never have to buy.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Draper-T...354699&hash=item2ed22d10f6:g:~78AAOSwirZTtCqG

We improvised and i also had a monster to help me that can be seen in the photo, after helping me he changed back into the pic below.

View attachment 134230
View attachment 134231

This is him in his sunday best.
View attachment 134232

Thanks for the info, sadly I have no monster to help me so may invest in the transmission jack as it’s on wheels, so far my plan is to now make ramps similar to yours as my sleepers give little boost in height, put 3/4” ply down as a floor to give me a solid base to work from and the jack will easily wheel on the ply, if you could update or send me the pictures that would be a great help, as they say a picture can speak a 1000 words, I keep having horrid flash backs of when I did my p38 on my own.....

got the new box in and 3 months later got the dreaded machine gun sound going up a hill with a trailer on.... so box back out and new transfer chain - now THAT is a job I would never want to do again... however the HUGE transfer chain was an amazing thing to behold! I don’t want a repeat of this so while I have the assembly out is there anything I should replace “just because I can”? Thanks for all the help so far guys

holidaychicken · Oct 31, 2017

i think you are very brave if you tackle it on your own and i would say you definitely need some form of jack on wheels.
There is another option on the ramps that i used when i changed out my front cv joints, another job that didn't need doing......
Using the sleepers you have more room to get in and out from the sides and probably safer, you could even go 3 sleepers high i guess and i have had all four wheels up on them

You would need to check the height and the ramps we made we put in the strengthening pieces between the vertical sections to stop it collapsing like cards.
The huge transfer chain you say..

kds · Oct 31, 2017

Just a thought, what about a motor cycle jack ? seen them in my local jtf warehouse might do the job.

holidaychicken · Oct 31, 2017

That's what we used but it didn't have wheels so we improvised some. The key is getting the vehicle high enough to get the transmission out but remembering you will need to lift the box back in at some point

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