holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
thanks bemble, i've been admiring your work, are you also known as RRPhil?
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holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
i think a few minutes should do it, although my leak looks quite clean so i guess somebody has been topping up.......
holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
bit of an update, i changed the gearbox oil and filter as per saints instructional which was spot on, thanks saint, drained out 5 litres, replaced with 7 litres, also new gasket, o ring and all torx bolts. oil didn't smell burnt, nothing metallic in the oil as i filtered with a paint filter and there was an amount of iron filings on the magnets but not what i would call excessive.
however, i took it for a test drive and although did seem to drive better it still has got an occasional vibration which does occur at even 70 mph and also as low as 30 mph mainly under very light throttle so i am guessing there may be other issues rather than the torque converter being low on oil as i first thought. the noise is a deep vibration that tends to start quiet, get louder and then go quiet again on its own.
worse news is i seem to still have an oil leak but not from the gasket but from behind a piece of casing just above the gasket join at the rear of the box as per the pic.
could this just be oil that we spilled when filling or is there a seal or gasket up there that could be shot?
i took it for a run of about 15 miles and the tubular sub frame below the box had a lot of oil on it so i wiped it and took it out again and although it seems less, it still had a drip from the bottom of the casing by the red circles and also oil on the subframe again.
any ideas?
however, i took it for a test drive and although did seem to drive better it still has got an occasional vibration which does occur at even 70 mph and also as low as 30 mph mainly under very light throttle so i am guessing there may be other issues rather than the torque converter being low on oil as i first thought. the noise is a deep vibration that tends to start quiet, get louder and then go quiet again on its own.
worse news is i seem to still have an oil leak but not from the gasket but from behind a piece of casing just above the gasket join at the rear of the box as per the pic.
could this just be oil that we spilled when filling or is there a seal or gasket up there that could be shot?
i took it for a run of about 15 miles and the tubular sub frame below the box had a lot of oil on it so i wiped it and took it out again and although it seems less, it still had a drip from the bottom of the casing by the red circles and also oil on the subframe again.
any ideas?
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holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
thanks for the reply, is it the sump pan gasket or is there another gasket there somewhere?
recon box scares me.....
Clean it up as best you can and then take it for a drive and see if it recurs.
So the vibration is better...what sort of % ?? 50% better, 75% better...??
Mine never 100% fully cured it, but it is 95% better than it was....and I am thinking my current vibration between 50-60 is a wheel out of balance, but it is hard to tell....
Watch your rev counter needle when you feel the vibration, if it is jumping around 100-200 rpm during the vibration, it could be the Torque Converter - esp. if it bounces above 56mph or so when the TQ locks up...the rising and lowering of the needle can indicate the TQ isn't locking up properly and slipping slightly...
It may also be an out of balance propshaft or more commonly the rear propshaft saddle bearing above the fuel tank getting old and loose.
So the vibration is better...what sort of % ?? 50% better, 75% better...??
Mine never 100% fully cured it, but it is 95% better than it was....and I am thinking my current vibration between 50-60 is a wheel out of balance, but it is hard to tell....
Watch your rev counter needle when you feel the vibration, if it is jumping around 100-200 rpm during the vibration, it could be the Torque Converter - esp. if it bounces above 56mph or so when the TQ locks up...the rising and lowering of the needle can indicate the TQ isn't locking up properly and slipping slightly...
It may also be an out of balance propshaft or more commonly the rear propshaft saddle bearing above the fuel tank getting old and loose.
holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
hi saint, i would say its 80-90% there but haven't taken it for a motorway run but sometimes i struggle to hear it at all now where as before i would get it as soon as i went out. i did get an extra 2 litres of oil in so that must of helped.
it seemed to do it slightly just before it changed down from what i am guessing was third to second as i was only doing about 35 mph. not tried it in sport or manual.
it does feel like a prop shaft as my old mark one escort used to do it but a bit louder and the gearstick used to pop out!
the vibration almost pulses for a few seconds as it gets louder and then goes quiet again but i dont think the needle is moving.
ive cleaned it a few times but every time i get back its got a few drips handing from the tube and one in the middle of the round casing in the pic.
i checked the other side by the filler and noticed that was wet so i have dried that off in case the filler plug is leaking and its running around the back of that case.
is there likely to be oil leaking from where it shows on the pics?
holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
nope, its above the sump gasket, i thought for a second the fill plug may have been leaking as that looked a bit suspect but i dont think it is.
i can only think its the main shaft that comes out the end and goes into the transfer box that has a seal around it????
i am hoping to take it in thursday to a gearbox specialist in hailsham who comes highly recommended
this is the last time i checked after drying it off and driving 3 or 4 times
holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
thanks very much, i was afraid that was the case, i can see this heading towards a gearbox rebuild and new torque converter thrown in for good measure while its apart
i know you are the man that knows Bemble, i've seen your work all over the net, what sort of money am i looking at to rebuild the box if my vibration is down to the box or is that more likely to be the TC. my gears all change perfectly as far as i can tell or as is that a 'how longs a piece of string' type question?
could i drop some sort of dye into the ATF to see where it is coming from?
i know you are the man that knows Bemble, i've seen your work all over the net, what sort of money am i looking at to rebuild the box if my vibration is down to the box or is that more likely to be the TC. my gears all change perfectly as far as i can tell or as is that a 'how longs a piece of string' type question?
could i drop some sort of dye into the ATF to see where it is coming from?
Bemble/RRPhil rebuilds boxes in his spare time as a hobby and will charge very reasonable rates...but you'll have to get the box off yourself and send it to him, and as he does it as a hobby, you will have to bank on being without the car for a few weeks....then refit yourself.
For an gearbox place to rebuild your box you could be looking in the £1500-£2200 region depending on the work involved....a remanufactured Torque Converter will set you back £300-£400 alone!
For an gearbox place to rebuild your box you could be looking in the £1500-£2200 region depending on the work involved....a remanufactured Torque Converter will set you back £300-£400 alone!
holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
i had heard of Bremble doing that, i'll wait to hear from the man himself if he is up for another project, without blowing smoke up his ass, his experience with these boxes is reaching legendary status. not having the car for a few weeks is no issue.
its not out of the question for me to remove the box but with only axle stands i may have to take it to my local guy to remove for me who does loads of land rovers
i think i'll take it into the At specialist that comes highly recommended to me and pay / ask them to diagnose the vibration issue as i can live with everything the way it is at the moment apart from the oil leak, although relatively minor, gets right on my wotsits. apart from the occasional vibration, the box seems to function perfectly...for now
i am wondering if the oil leak,(gearbox or TB seals) can be resolved by removing the transfer box only or if this is just as much a pain as removing the box itself - anyone?
thanks guys
To be honest I don’t see anything in what you’ve written that would really justify a complete transmission rebuild.
Removal and reinstallation of the transmission & transfer box assembly is about a 5 hour job with a ramp (see attachments).
Once out, you would be able to remove the torque converter (it just slides off) and send it away for re-manufacture to address the lock-up clutch vibration issue (for example, JPAT provide me with a 2-day turnaround for £225 i.e. they re-manufacture the actual converter that you send to them). While you’re waiting you could split the transmission and transfer box (just nine bolts) to find the source of the leak. Both the transmission output shaft/target wheel seal (Paulstra 45x62x7 lip seal - ZF p/n 0734 319 520, LR p/n TYX000080) and the transfer box input seal (LR p/n IZB500010) cost under a tenner each. In either case there’s no need to pull the transmission or the transfer box apart to replace the seal.
Because the oil capacity of the NV225 transfer box is only 1 litre you could maybe drain it to see how much oil comes out. If it’s almost a litre then it’s the transmission seal that’s leaking!
Removal and reinstallation of the transmission & transfer box assembly is about a 5 hour job with a ramp (see attachments).
Once out, you would be able to remove the torque converter (it just slides off) and send it away for re-manufacture to address the lock-up clutch vibration issue (for example, JPAT provide me with a 2-day turnaround for £225 i.e. they re-manufacture the actual converter that you send to them). While you’re waiting you could split the transmission and transfer box (just nine bolts) to find the source of the leak. Both the transmission output shaft/target wheel seal (Paulstra 45x62x7 lip seal - ZF p/n 0734 319 520, LR p/n TYX000080) and the transfer box input seal (LR p/n IZB500010) cost under a tenner each. In either case there’s no need to pull the transmission or the transfer box apart to replace the seal.
Because the oil capacity of the NV225 transfer box is only 1 litre you could maybe drain it to see how much oil comes out. If it’s almost a litre then it’s the transmission seal that’s leaking!
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holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
thanks very much that's exactly what i have been trying to find out , i really value your advice as this is my first l322 and although i have some experience with vehicle mechanics as does a close friend of mine who helps me out, its the knowledge and therefore confidence i lack to even attempt the job but with the information you have so readily to hand i may well give it a go. my only downfall would be access to a ramp but not out of the question.
thanks again, i will keep in touch
holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
bit of an update and more advice needed
i dropped the car off to an independent auto transmission company.
they pointed out and i did notice that morning that i also have a leak from the front of the gearbox and looks like its dripping from a plastic cover or bung so i think the box needs to come out.
we spoke about how far to go while the box is out
i think the TC is a given
i would like the gearbox to have a service which i think looks like a lot of seals in the kit i have seen and he also suggested the friction plates and a piston assembly that he says he quite often needs to replace on these boxes, something to do with reverse??
i would also replace the filter again and he suggested just using his normal ATF fluid and no need for the mobil ATF i used when i originally did the filter which concerns me slightly so i may just provide the fluid anyway.
i have also considered a new oil cooler rad, mount and thermostat and was considering the oil pipes but cant find them for sale.
is there anything i should also consider while the box is out and am i replacing things i dont need to?
i also read in one of RRPhils posts somewhere about a common breakdown of a seal i think leading to a bearing failure but can find it if you could help out again Phil?
any advice much appreciated as i want to make sure i i dont end up back here in a few months time...
i dropped the car off to an independent auto transmission company.
they pointed out and i did notice that morning that i also have a leak from the front of the gearbox and looks like its dripping from a plastic cover or bung so i think the box needs to come out.
we spoke about how far to go while the box is out
i think the TC is a given
i would like the gearbox to have a service which i think looks like a lot of seals in the kit i have seen and he also suggested the friction plates and a piston assembly that he says he quite often needs to replace on these boxes, something to do with reverse??
i would also replace the filter again and he suggested just using his normal ATF fluid and no need for the mobil ATF i used when i originally did the filter which concerns me slightly so i may just provide the fluid anyway.
i have also considered a new oil cooler rad, mount and thermostat and was considering the oil pipes but cant find them for sale.
is there anything i should also consider while the box is out and am i replacing things i dont need to?
i also read in one of RRPhils posts somewhere about a common breakdown of a seal i think leading to a bearing failure but can find it if you could help out again Phil?
any advice much appreciated as i want to make sure i i dont end up back here in a few months time...
I would think there is little point in replacing all the friction plates as the box would be faulting into Trans Failsafe if the plates where bad enough to need replacing.
Never use anything but the recommended fluid to the correct specification tin the L322 boxes....
The earlier ZF 5HP26 boxes in the BMW's and the like in the 90's had issues with the clutch cage(?) on the A clutch, the lip/edge wasn't very strong and would break away causing grief..this was changed by the time the box was used in the L322.
The main fault RRPhil has found on these boxes is the bearing between the B and C clutches failing, this cause the clutch pack to move axially along the shaft wearing out the O ring that sits underneath and seals A and B clutches from eachother...the seal failure cause a drop in the hydraulic pressure holding A Clutch in and allows it to slip slightly....
RRPhil reports that the box should fault into Failsafe 5th gear before the A Clutch plates burn out, but it has been known and a search on rangerovers.net will reveal Phil's pictures of shagged A Clutch Plates...
I attach here a couple of RRPhils pictures of the O Ring and Bearing Failure.
RRphil can advise if it is worth while getting it all resealed with new friction plates as he has vastly more knowledge on these boxes than pretty much anyone else...
If it was me, and I had the cash spare - yes I would have it done while the box is out for peace of mind....
Even if I didn't have any issues and I could spare the cash I would get it done in anycase, that is just me being all preventative Maintenance again though!
Cooler, Plate, Stat and Pipes are all readily available (see my How To on replacing the Cooler, Plate and Stat) cost was around £170, And the pipes are both available at about £80 a piece from Island 4x4....
Sometimes I have noticed with Island 4x4 is they may not list it in the menus, but a search on the LR part number usually brings them up....how do I know they are available - cos when I did my cooler I mangaged to break one of them - luckily I fixed it
Parts Required (prices not incl. VAT and from Island4x4 - no affiliation):
1 x Oil Cooler Gearbox / Transmission L322 4.4 V8 Petrol ZF Steptronic £83.33
1 x Thermostat Oil Cooler 5-Speed (BEHR) PBM000010 £30.00
1 x Thermostat Oil Cooler Mounting Plate (OEM) PCU000140 £30.00
Pipes:
http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/cooler-pipe-genuine-ubp000180-p-19737.html - £70 +VAT
http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/cooler-pipe-genuine-ubp000161-p-19736.html - £80 +VAT
Never use anything but the recommended fluid to the correct specification tin the L322 boxes....
The earlier ZF 5HP26 boxes in the BMW's and the like in the 90's had issues with the clutch cage(?) on the A clutch, the lip/edge wasn't very strong and would break away causing grief..this was changed by the time the box was used in the L322.
The main fault RRPhil has found on these boxes is the bearing between the B and C clutches failing, this cause the clutch pack to move axially along the shaft wearing out the O ring that sits underneath and seals A and B clutches from eachother...the seal failure cause a drop in the hydraulic pressure holding A Clutch in and allows it to slip slightly....
RRPhil reports that the box should fault into Failsafe 5th gear before the A Clutch plates burn out, but it has been known and a search on rangerovers.net will reveal Phil's pictures of shagged A Clutch Plates...
I attach here a couple of RRPhils pictures of the O Ring and Bearing Failure.
RRphil can advise if it is worth while getting it all resealed with new friction plates as he has vastly more knowledge on these boxes than pretty much anyone else...
If it was me, and I had the cash spare - yes I would have it done while the box is out for peace of mind....
Even if I didn't have any issues and I could spare the cash I would get it done in anycase, that is just me being all preventative Maintenance again though!
Cooler, Plate, Stat and Pipes are all readily available (see my How To on replacing the Cooler, Plate and Stat) cost was around £170, And the pipes are both available at about £80 a piece from Island 4x4....
Sometimes I have noticed with Island 4x4 is they may not list it in the menus, but a search on the LR part number usually brings them up....how do I know they are available - cos when I did my cooler I mangaged to break one of them - luckily I fixed it
Parts Required (prices not incl. VAT and from Island4x4 - no affiliation):
1 x Oil Cooler Gearbox / Transmission L322 4.4 V8 Petrol ZF Steptronic £83.33
1 x Thermostat Oil Cooler 5-Speed (BEHR) PBM000010 £30.00
1 x Thermostat Oil Cooler Mounting Plate (OEM) PCU000140 £30.00
Pipes:
http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/cooler-pipe-genuine-ubp000180-p-19737.html - £70 +VAT
http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/cooler-pipe-genuine-ubp000161-p-19736.html - £80 +VAT
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holidaychicken
Well-Known Member
thanks saint, again, i had read your how to guide which may me decide to change the cooler and othe related parts.
it did seem to drop some oil from the very front of the car over the offside, a puddle appeared from below a hole in the plastic guard at the front after we changed the oil but nothing since.
the car is getting more prone to the vibration again which i am guessing is the oil level dropping.
i'll mention the bearing to the guy but hopefully phil will chime in at some point about what to do or not while i have its guts out but i will hopefully be keeping this car for a long time so i dont want to be changing things again too soon. i am looking at £1250 without the extra bits of cooling which is the worst case scenario, i hope
i would be happy to tackle this myself but i think i would struggle to get the box out myself without a ramp
thanks for the links, i thought i had seen them on the island site but as you say they dont appear in their transmission or cooling sections.
thanks mate
it did seem to drop some oil from the very front of the car over the offside, a puddle appeared from below a hole in the plastic guard at the front after we changed the oil but nothing since.
the car is getting more prone to the vibration again which i am guessing is the oil level dropping.
i'll mention the bearing to the guy but hopefully phil will chime in at some point about what to do or not while i have its guts out but i will hopefully be keeping this car for a long time so i dont want to be changing things again too soon. i am looking at £1250 without the extra bits of cooling which is the worst case scenario, i hope
i would be happy to tackle this myself but i think i would struggle to get the box out myself without a ramp
thanks for the links, i thought i had seen them on the island site but as you say they dont appear in their transmission or cooling sections.
thanks mate
