Turboman · Sep 23, 2018

Datatek said:
Ah, you remember the SMOG, oldies dropping like flies Go back a bit further to the horse transport era and London roads were covered in horse droppings and urine, not to mention human effluent discharged into gutters.

I remember it too. Still a lot of coal fires when we first came to London in 1966. Emptying chamber pots out of the windows had mostly been abandoned by then, though.

wammers · Sep 23, 2018

Datatek said:
Ah, you remember the SMOG, oldies dropping like flies Go back a bit further to the horse transport era and London roads were covered in horse droppings and urine, not to mention human effluent discharged into gutters.

I remember the pea soupers were you had to open the drivers door to follow the white line on the road because you couldn't see a bloody thing in front of you. If these jessie's think it's bad now they have never lived.

Datatek · Sep 23, 2018

wammers said:
I remember the pea soupers were you had to open the drivers door to follow the white line on the road because you couldn't see a bloody thing in front of you. If these jessie's think it's bad now they have never lived.

We used to walk home from school in front of the bus carrying a lighted oily rag on a stick to show the driver the way!

myfirstl322 · Sep 23, 2018

We used to lure ships onto the rocks and steal the sails for eiderdowns.

Turboman · Sep 23, 2018

myfirstl322 said:
We used to lure ships onto the rocks and steal the sails for eiderdowns.

Used to be a popular hobby in Cornwall too.
But Elf and Safety and Enviro killjoys have put a stop to that as well.

myfirstl322 · Sep 23, 2018

I know...........and duvets are dirt cheap now anyway.

norseman · Sep 23, 2018

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wammers said:
I remember the pea soupers were you had to open the drivers door to follow the white line on the road because you couldn't see a bloody thing in front of you. If these jessie's think it's bad now they have never lived.

They'd have a job today as most of the white lines (to follow) are too faded to see or missing altogether. We've got newly resurfaced around here that have never had the white lines repainted.

Grrrrrr · Sep 23, 2018

Turboman said:
Agree about the planes, though. A lot of pollution, produced in the worst place, and still no tax on aviation fuel. Strange inconsistency with the policies about road vehicles.

The tax has to be applied in all countries or they'll just fill up where no tax. I suspect that's a stumbling block to taxing fuel for ships and planes.

Turboman · Sep 24, 2018

Grrrrrr said:
The tax has to be applied in all countries or they'll just fill up where no tax. I suspect that's a stumbling block to taxing fuel for ships and planes.

I think you are right. But there is an amount of International Law that applies to shipping and aviation, regs concerning registration and safety, so it doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility to extend it to fuel taxation.

Grrrrrr · Sep 24, 2018

Turboman said:
I think you are right. But there is an amount of International Law that applies to shipping and aviation, regs concerning registration and safety, so it doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility to extend it to fuel taxation.

Yes, although I'd bet most of the regs are enforced by the insurance companies more than governments. Governments just want to be seen to do the right thing; insurance companies actually pay when it goes wrong. I guess the other part is our economy is based on consumerism. Unless we spend they are f*cked. Put up shipping costs and that gets passed to the consumer as higher prices and they stop buying. That leaves the government with a dilemma: tax the fuel or tax the lot at point of sale and don't risk losing the jobs at the ship filling station.

wammers · Sep 24, 2018

Grrrrrr said:
The tax has to be applied in all countries or they'll just fill up where no tax. I suspect that's a stumbling block to taxing fuel for ships and planes.

Depends on how far they are flying. Aircraft cannot just fill up where fuel is cheapest. They have a max takeoff weight and a max landing weight. Say for instance fuel was cheaper in Paris than it was in London. They could not fill to the brim in Paris because they would be to heavy to land in London. Other factors are present so that is a bit simplistic. The heavier they are the more fuel they use, just like your car will get better MPG with just enough in to get to work and back, than doing the same thing all the time with a full tank.

Grrrrrr · Sep 24, 2018

wammers said:
Depends on how far they are flying. Aircraft cannot just fill up where fuel is cheapest. They have a max takeoff weight and a max landing weight. Say for instance fuel was cheaper in Paris than it was in London. They could not fill to the brim in Paris because they would be to heavy to land in London. Other factors are present so that is a bit simplistic. The heavier they are the more fuel they use, just like your car will get better MPG with just enough in to get to work and back, than doing the same thing all the time with a full tank.

True. There's a balancing act although more of an issue for aircraft rather than ships. I'm guessing what ships burn is probably the ****tiest grade you can get as well.

Gazbo · Sep 24, 2018

Datatek said:
Ah, you remember the SMOG, oldies dropping like flies Go back a bit further to the horse transport era and London roads were covered in horse droppings and urine, not to mention human effluent discharged into gutters.

Delightful......

Gazbo · Sep 24, 2018

Grrrrrr said:
True. There's a balancing act although more of an issue for aircraft rather than ships. I'm guessing what ships burn is probably the ****tiest grade you can get as well.

Seems to depend on where the ships are, I been on a few cruises and find that the ships exhaust stack is always cleaner when leaving ports, in shall we call them first world countries, than when cruising international waters or leaving third world ports. I have come to the conclusion that these ships carry both "A" grade diesel and low grade bunker oil in separate tanks (those engines will burn a fair range of fuels), and "switch" fuel as seen necessary for their location. Late in the evening on the stern decks you get a lot of "soot bombs" landing, and more smoke is visible than by daylight.
I've even heard of used/waste engine oil being mixed with commercial ship bunker fuel, when I was working the ships up in our Northern Gulf waters.

Saint.V8 · Sep 24, 2018

Frenchdame · Sep 24, 2018

wammers said:
Depends on how far they are flying. Aircraft cannot just fill up where fuel is cheapest. They have a max takeoff weight and a max landing weight. Say for instance fuel was cheaper in Paris than it was in London. They could not fill to the brim in Paris because they would be to heavy to land in London. Other factors are present so that is a bit simplistic. The heavier they are the more fuel they use, just like your car will get better MPG with just enough in to get to work and back, than doing the same thing all the time with a full tank.

I'm not sure if it is still in force but BA Captains were formally challenged if they returned, say having re-fuelled in the West Indies, and landed at LHR with too much fuel still on board.

Gazbo · Sep 25, 2018

Saint.V8 said:

Classics, (Range Rover classis annorl), never die, what a great piece of comedy.

Digweed · Sep 25, 2018

Datatek said:
Ah, you remember the SMOG, oldies dropping like flies Go back a bit further to the horse transport era and London roads were covered in horse droppings and urine, not to mention human effluent discharged into gutters.

Good times! Good times! The glory days.

Mukiwa · Sep 28, 2018

Gazbo said:
I've even heard of used/waste engine oil being mixed with commercial ship bunker fuel, when I was working the ships up in our Northern Gulf waters.

I believe this is called "black diesel". I've been on a few veggie oil sites and this is quite the in vogue cocktail for diesels. Filtered first though.

Talking of green bits for ships, have you seen the spinning mast that's being used now? It's a tube that spins and uses the Magnus effect called a Flettner Rotor, I think similar to a wing and the low pressure at the front "sucks" the mast / ship forwards. Very interesting but old tech

Grrrrrr · Sep 28, 2018

Mukiwa said:
I believe this is called "black diesel". I've been on a few veggie oil sites and this is quite the in vogue cocktail for diesels. Filtered first though.

Talking of green bits for ships, have you seen the spinning mast that's being used now? It's a tube that spins and uses the Magnus effect called a Flettner Rotor, I think similar to a wing and the low pressure at the front "sucks" the mast / ship forwards. Very interesting but old tech

I've seen prototypes using the magnus effect. In fact, I may be wrong but I think Brunel or someone around that time tried it out? IIRC it was slower than sail or indeed the waterwheel or screw-propeller which is why it never caught on.

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