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Papa Smurf
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"Exit" <exit@nomore.com> wrote in message
news:sdnOa.77967$%L.30041@news-lhr.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Papa Smurf wrote:
> > "Exit" <exit@nomore.com> wrote in message
> > news:FUlOa.77857$%L.14724@news-lhr.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >> Papa Smurf wrote:
> >>> "Exit" <exit@nomore.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:%piOa.77802$%L.61128@news-lhr.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >>>> Papa Smurf wrote:
> >>>>> "Exit" <exit@nomore.com> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:zXgOa.77790$%L.30607@news-lhr.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >>>>>> Papa Smurf wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Exit" <exit@nomore.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>> news:NcaOa.77017$%L.6314@news-lhr.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >>>>>>>> Papa Smurf wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "Exit" <exit@nomore.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>> news:%93Oa.76197$%L.68601@news-lhr.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >>>>>>>>>> scrape at mindspring dot com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:23:42 GMT, "Exit" <exit@nomore.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> scrape at mindspring dot com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:40:07 GMT, "Exit" <exit@nomore.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forgive my lack of knowledge of US political parties as I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> am an Englishman - I take it the democrats are the very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> right wing party and the republicans are the even more
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> right wing party?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. You've got it wrong. The Democrats are the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> socialists and the Republicans are the liberals.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Democrats are socialists?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To be a socialist (like Tony Blair or Karl Marx
) you> >>>>>>>>>>>> need to believe in:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> State ownership of big business.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> A command economy.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Redistribution of wealth.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> That the struggle between the proletariat and bourgeois is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a politcal struggle.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> State provision of services.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It still looks to me as though you have two right wing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> parties neither of whom would know socialism if it hit them
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in the face! ;-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you need to look a bit closer. I'm not familiar
> >>>>>>>>>>> with the phrase "command economy", but everything else you
> >>>>>>>>>>> mentioned is dead on what the Democrats want.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Really? Which industries have the democrats nationalised
> >>>>>>>>>> recently?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> If they were socialists a national health service would be
> >>>>>>>>>> top of their list, but they don't ssem to have provided one
> >>>>>>>>>> yet.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> We run into a little trouble with that one. Since largely it
> >>>>>>>>> is US companies fronting the bill for the R&D that provides
> >>>>>>>>> cheapers better drugs and procedures for the rest of the world
> >>>>>>>>> it becomes difficult for US to achieve a leechbased healthcare
> >>>>>>>>> system without putting at least some of the cost on the
> >>>>>>>>> non-producers.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm afraid thats not true. Global Trade Information Services
> >>>>>>>> show that the US exported 8695 and imported 14309 GBP Millions
> >>>>>>>> pharamceuticals in 2002. The UK by comparison exported 10031
> >>>>>>>> and imported 7446. We don't put the costs on the
> >>>>>>>> non-producers, so why would you need to?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd be very curious to see how pharameceuticals is defined to
> >>>>>>> make that statistic true.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Same way the US Govt defines it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd also be curious to know how many of said drugs are we
> >>>>>>> originally developed or knockoffs thereof.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> None are knockoffs, the UK is one of the worlds leading
> >>>>>> pharmaceutical developers, not some 3rd world sweat shop copying
> >>>>>> US drugs. US Giant Pfizer is the worlds biggest pharmaceutical
> >>>>>> co. with
> >>>>>> 7.5% of the world market share. GlaxoSmithKline in the UK have
> >>>>>> 7.0% of the world market and none of the other US companies
> >>>>>> comes close. Bear in mind that 53% of the worlds patents are
> >>>>>> registered to UK individuals or companies and a significant part
> >>>>>> of that is pharmaceutical.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was completely unaware of this. BTW: I am very much enjoying our
> >>>>> conversation.
> >>>>> Do you have any links that I could look into this with? Always
> >>>>> like to upgrade the worldview where it is flawed.
> >>>>>
> >>>> It is rather enlightening isn't it?
> >>>
> >>> Always. It is nearly impossible to have a nice reasoned political
> >>> arguement any more. Both sides are so charged, so ****ed, so wary of
> >>> being lead it a trap, and neither side really listening, that mostly
> >>> it rapidly breakdowns into ridiculous statements and personal
> >>> attacks. And I'm just as guilty as this, coming in with as much
> >>> baggage as I have. It's been very pleasent to have a discussion that
> >>> hasn't hasn't imediately been reduced to the: "I'm a dickhead? No,
> >>> you're a dickhead." level.
> >>>
> >> Agreed - I think party politics is treated a little less seriously
> >> here and is all the better for it,
> >
> > Part of why it is taken seriously, here is that it is serious. The
> > differences argued might seem little from your vantage point but for
> > me it means how deeply others are allowed to rip into my pocket, and
> > for others it's how deeply into the trouth they can dig. Since I
> > dislike being robbed, it upsets me. Since others have been taught not
> > to handle things themselves they live in fear of this support being
> > taken away, and are angry at the reality of the situation. So angers
> > and fears run high and cloud judegments on all sides. And then the
> > politicians stir up and exaggerate those fears to get votes....
> >
> You should remember it's only money - nothing worth getting stressed over.
> There are more important things in life. I personally put a lot of this
> stress down to inadequate holidays/vacations in the US - you chaps work
hard
> and take no time off to appreciate the finer things in life. Most people
get
> around 25 days holiday per year here which is very civilised.
Before my wife, I had a girlfriend from Ireland. I always envied the Holiday
system over there.
However, while I do work hard, I work for myself, and I tend to hire
competant (self reliant) people, so I delegate a lot. While I tend to not
take off too much time in a block of days, I don't work all that hard. Money
for monies sake has never been a goal of mine. Smelling the roses is very
important (especially as I get older). I could have been much richer than I
am, but the sacrifices would have been to great. My children are safe and
provided for (but fully expect to build empires on their own), my wife is
happy. It is enough.
The rest is about Principals, and that's were I get worked up.
> >> but if you've ever watched the British parliament
> >> live, it's hard to take them seriously. On the whole however most
> >> MP's do a good job of representing their constituencies and have to
> >> run an open 'surgery' every week where their electorate have
> >> unfettered free access to them to complain about the bins not being
> >> emptied or whatever - it's great leveller and brings them down to
> >> earth!
> >
> > I like that, sounds like a great humbler, and keeps them more in
> > touch with the people.
> > Tough to implement that with such a large population I would think
> > though..
> >>
> It works out to about 92,000 people per MP - how many senators/congressmen
> are there versus the population over there?
Population is what, must be about 275,000,000 by now and 50 senators and 466
congressmen. So that's 5.5 million per Senator or about 600,000 per
Congressman (sorry no calculator around)
(Just did a search, the population is slightly over 290 million.)
>
> >>>> ISTR getting the world market share figures for Pfizer and GSK from
> >>>> their respective websites and the reference to 53% of the worlds
> >>>> patents being British was actually calculated by the Japanese
> >>>> Ministry Industry in 1996, though I can't find the link currently.
> >>>> Shame we are not as good at selling them as we are at inventing
> >>>> them.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> Since this is totally
> >>>>>>>>> unacceptable to leechvoters and hugely unpopular with those
> >>>>>>>>> that would end up footing the rest of the bill, it has
> >>>>>>>>> trouble even being formed to come for a vote. Take recent
> >>>>>>>>> events where Bush has said "Get me a healthcare bill, I'll
> >>>>>>>>> sign it" and then the press starts giving out the details
> >>>>>>>>> that it will (gasp) cost some more than they are getting back
> >>>>>>>>> (they wanted the magical cow to pay for it all), suddenly
> >>>>>>>>> they are all up in arms and it probably won't get passed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm not saying you should have a national health service,
> >>>>>>>> thats a choice for your electorate, but I do suspect the
> >>>>>>>> arguments are not being fairly assessed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I call them like I see them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Of course you do, but I suspect political dogma gets in the way
> >>>>>> of a fair assessment of whether a NHS would help or hinder your
> >>>>>> country.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've posted my reasons in the other half of this thread. I can
> >>>>> only go on, what my experience shows me, and what observe about
> >>>>> similar matters. If it is shoved down our throats, and it works,
> >>>>> I'll be first in line changing my tune. If, as I suspect, that I
> >>>>> end paying not only for my own medical expressives, but those of
> >>>>> several hundred others, maybe it will finally be time to admit
> >>>>> defeat, and look for a freer country.
> >>>>
> >>>> On the other hand, you might get really ill and have several
> >>>> hundred others paying for your medical bills!
> >>>
> >>> Unlikely to happen here. Since the government doesn't view me as
> >>> poor, should I spend all my money I will still be kicked out on my
> >>> ass rather than helped.
> >>> Even so, most HMO and insurance policies have caps lower than my
> >>> bond. And it serves me right if I haven't planned properly.
> >>
> >> Never mind - if you feel ill, nip on a plane and book yoursellf in
> >> here for a free service!
> >
> > Not really my style (self-reliance and all), it would feel wrong to
> > use a system I pay nothing into.
>
> I doubt you'd care if you were ill but I respect your ethics.
It's moments like that when a persons values are really tested. Wouldn't fly
there, but if I was there and they wouldn't let me pay.....