That's not what I'm suggesting. I assess risk for people that I put to work. If I had been remotely involved in what happened last night-not even responsible, I would be boll*&ked then sacked. Simple as that. If we are gonna have a go at doing what professionals should be doing we should attempt to do it in a professional manner. Again, less speed more haste. Someone gets into trouble it's not our responsibility to get them out.

If you have specific risk assessment experience then maybe that might help us in the way we all approach this. I do risk assessments, but only for work within a school, very basic and usually doesn't involve very hazardous situations, hence why I started this thing. Some of us are good out on the lanes, for instance, and have lots of experience when there, but have no experience of managing the logistics and co-ordination of people.

I think we all agree that it's up to the person actually there to either carry on with a recovery (person/s and/or vehicle) or not... with no repercussions from anyone. It isn't MHM's, BB's, LZ's 'fault' they go there, it's their own desire .. all the team do is contact people and see if they can help, they put no pressure on other than asking for some kind of update when available.
 
theres all sorts of reasons why people might call upon LZIR
I'd be willing to respond to the same sort of stuff that i'd help with if i came across it / if a friend asked.
So - car's slipped off a road or byway and needs a bit of help getting back on (which is what last night's incident initially looked like) - fine
car's stuck miles from the nearest decent surface in a dangerous and precarious place on a mountain - no thanks.
 
We need all we can to join up. I can offer a flask of tea and a cuddle. Even a little friendly reassurance that the they int a complete bell end.:rolleyes:
Sometimes you only have to sit and hold their hand............ang on ang on.... we got enough Freelander members signed up thank you.
Its not just mountain rescue u no.

Naturally the RA, H&S cocks will do their utmost to ruin it for everyone and persist to the bitter end FFS like they do:rolleyes: but thats not what this help is about. If its only a visit to the event to shake your head and explain why its obviously a tractor rescue then thats worth doing.

If you think what might have happened last night if one of our members hadnt turned out it was 100% worth it. I can just see the row of overturned KIA's sat at the bottom of the hill with the Flying Ambulance hovering over them.
 
Having been directly involved with the incident of the CR-V stuck on a mountain side, I think that one of the first questions which MUST be asked is "Is this a rescue or a recovery situation", and if it's a recovery have they attempted to contact a professional recovery company such as Green Flag.
In the case of a rescue; the wife and kids getting very cold or at some kind of risk then yes, I would turn out again, but in the case of just a vehicle recovery, well, that would be a different matter, especially given that we now suspect that the vehicle in question wasn't insured and the owner was up there "to see what it could do".
 
Having been directly involved with the incident of the CR-V stuck on a mountain side, I think that one of the first questions which MUST be asked is "Is this a rescue or a recovery situation", and if it's a recovery have they attempted to contact a professional recovery company such as Green Flag.
In the case of a rescue; the wife and kids getting very cold or at some kind of risk then yes, I would turn out again, but in the case of just a vehicle recovery, well, that would be a different matter, especially given that we now suspect that the vehicle in question wasn't insured and the owner was up there "to see what it could do".
does been asked to help by lzir make a request seem more likely you would attend as in you thought it was less likely a chancer
 
you attending was appreciated, but by definition, you must have been able to assess the risk better than anyone not there, and make your own decision as to the action to take, or not.
why call it lzir when you shirk any responsibility, just leave it for people to ask for help as a post and more info would be gained by discussion before help was given ,calling it lzir infers some kind of formal status
especially with posts like this
where the feck are @pontyslapper and @autogas?
the urgency implies more
 
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Some of the urgency in Mr Hats posts last night were a bit officious - but there's no need to prattle on about it - you've made your point a number of times.

Fecking 'ek - a bad event and the whole LZIR is in disarray.

Lets put some context on this - this was not a 'normal' event. The newcomer turned out to be very dubious with the truth and it turned into a dangerous situation. "Safety First" was mentioned a number of times on the 'stuck' thread, but that's a little bit of a blazay statement easily ignored. Also its a lot more difficult for 1 person to say "no this is to dangerous" as they are more likely to feel obliged to help and fear of ridicule etc if they refuse - so Its probably best that if any LZIR event is not on tarmac, 2 members should go and meet at the nearest road and only once both have agreed that it is safe and within their ability to attempt a recovery should they continue - any doubt on either part and its a refusal to go any further.

I'm the sole LZIR member in New Zealand and I have a 2WD Freelander - its not going to pull the skin off custard if it ain't on tarmac. So I'm not going anywhere off-piste if help is needed near me - but I might be able to put a possey of non-LZ members together. If someone's broke down in a supermarket carpark near me, I'll be the first there with a flask of coffee, me tools and printed instructions from @wammers on how the MAF works. Hopefully they'd have a Landie, if not, they'd better have some cake.

Incidentally, over here insurance is not an issue - its not a legal requirement. Its also not really much of an issue as to whether the vehicle needing recovery is road legal - lots of people have a 2nd non-road legal truck just for off roading. However, what is an issue is just 1 person out by themselves off-road. If they get into a situation where they need help, then there's a good chance they're not the sort of person I signed up to LZIR to help - they are just taking the ****. I've seen them a number of times out and about here - out for a joy ride in a 4x4, probably after a couple of beers and stuck in a whole. In my mind, they can stay there - just like the fella stuck up a hill in Wales. If a couple of blokes have gone off road, taken reasonable precautions, but something out of the blue has happened and they need assistance - that's a justifiable LZIR event in my mind.
 
If you have specific risk assessment experience then maybe that might help us in the way we all approach this. I do risk assessments, but only for work within a school, very basic and usually doesn't involve very hazardous situations, hence why I started this thing. Some of us are good out on the lanes, for instance, and have lots of experience when there, but have no experience of managing the logistics and co-ordination of people.

I think we all agree that it's up to the person actually there to either carry on with a recovery (person/s and/or vehicle) or not... with no repercussions from anyone. It isn't MHM's, BB's, LZ's 'fault' they go there, it's their own desire .. all the team do is contact people and see if they can help, they put no pressure on other than asking for some kind of update when available.

I'm a machine driver, tracking a machine around the fields and bogs is what I do, the experience I have from operating plant in every environment from peat bogs to building sites with inches of clearance around scaffolding, buildings and men on the ground, and this experience is invaluable as we are performing risk assessments every day, when we lift, tow, sling & strop materials and equipment, I'm talking about the difference between everyone going home safe and all limbs attached or not going home at all, a mere slip, a jerk of the levers, wrong straps used, unsuitable towing/lifting points being used, defective equipment whether it be shackles, chains, strops or ropes, we've learned how to make safe judgements from years of experience.

I am not saying I've never made a bad call, I have, I have also been to the inquests of guys who died on site, these were guys who went to work to do their jobs and never went home. Sadly it was the lessons learned through someone else's mistakes that makes you think twice about what you are doing, not everyone has had such harsh reality checks and fail to see the danger until it's too late.

It probably seems a little morbid to speak of tragedy when nothing much apart from getting a little stuck happened, but that was exactly the same thing that happened a few years back, a Nissan Patrol got stuck, the two guys linked their two tow ropes together with a shackle, completely ignored my warnings and then got the fright of their lives when the eyelet gave out and that innocent shackle became a lethal projectile that wiped out the back window, rear right light cluster and embedded itself through one skin of the steel tailgate, it could easily have killed someone!!!

The question is this, who is ultimately responsible? And who is taking the blame if something goes wrong? We've (most of us living in the 21st century anyways) all got smart phones and I for one am not shy about videoing people in order to preserve my own posterior(you learn fast when your foreman is a prjck who tells lies and gets you in trouble to save their own a$$) and if one day I get the call to help someone in need I will video the scene and their confirmation to take ultimate responsibility for the undertaking of vehicle recovery and their waiver to any damages as a result of the recovery.

This episode in Wales has been an eye opener for some and an "I told you so" moment for others, I don't think we should stop helping folk out, but I do think we should all be aware of our limitations, whether it be our physical fitness, vehicle preparation or the recovery kit we carry, maybe it will encourage more people to go on a winching course, to invest in better recovery points on their vehicles? I don't know, but we all need to be thankful for the people who are prepared to sacrifice their own time and resources to help others.
 
It's not just about recovery, turning up with a spare part, a missing tool or a hot flask can sometimes be a lifesaver :)
Please remember this folks.
You don’t have to be a “ratty” to help someone in the sh1te, but you do have to put your own safety first. We try to always ask to go in a pair of vehicles when going to the unknown, or someone you don’t know. One of the reasons why it is posted as a thread, to use as a central point to discuss and organise action & disseminate info.
 
Any rescue is for the people, and recovery of the vehicle is a secondary issue.
Anyone who has completed a recognised 'Off-Road Driving and Foul Weather Course', or has had many years of experience in 'proper' Land Rover Trials, knows that walking the course half a dozen times (if necessary), is essential to ensure that the rescuer knows what he/she is letting themselves in
for!
It is also OK to say, "No, I'm not prepared to risk myself, my vehicle or my backup team, so leave your vehicle for recovery later, and we will give you a lift to a safe place."
 
maybe LZIR needs a name change to something that doesn’t imply formal ‘rescue’ or ‘recovery’?
Lowering the expectation maybe may discourage the chancers like the CR-V guy, and also reduce the chance of people feeling ‘honour bound’ to press on in a dodgy situation for fear of loosing face or some other macho BS.

don’t know what it would be called. It’s just a suggestion. It would be interesting to know how the cr-v guy found LZIR, what he googled etc
 
I'm a machine driver, tracking a machine around the fields and bogs is what I do, the experience I have from operating plant in every environment from peat bogs to building sites with inches of clearance around scaffolding, buildings and men on the ground, and this experience is invaluable as we are performing risk assessments every day, when we lift, tow, sling & strop materials and equipment, I'm talking about the difference between everyone going home safe and all limbs attached or not going home at all, a mere slip, a jerk of the levers, wrong straps used, unsuitable towing/lifting points being used, defective equipment whether it be shackles, chains, strops or ropes, we've learned how to make safe judgements from years of experience.

I am not saying I've never made a bad call, I have, I have also been to the inquests of guys who died on site, these were guys who went to work to do their jobs and never went home. Sadly it was the lessons learned through someone else's mistakes that makes you think twice about what you are doing, not everyone has had such harsh reality checks and fail to see the danger until it's too late.

It probably seems a little morbid to speak of tragedy when nothing much apart from getting a little stuck happened, but that was exactly the same thing that happened a few years back, a Nissan Patrol got stuck, the two guys linked their two tow ropes together with a shackle, completely ignored my warnings and then got the fright of their lives when the eyelet gave out and that innocent shackle became a lethal projectile that wiped out the back window, rear right light cluster and embedded itself through one skin of the steel tailgate, it could easily have killed someone!!!

The question is this, who is ultimately responsible? And who is taking the blame if something goes wrong? We've (most of us living in the 21st century anyways) all got smart phones and I for one am not shy about videoing people in order to preserve my own posterior(you learn fast when your foreman is a prjck who tells lies and gets you in trouble to save their own a$$) and if one day I get the call to help someone in need I will video the scene and their confirmation to take ultimate responsibility for the undertaking of vehicle recovery and their waiver to any damages as a result of the recovery.

This episode in Wales has been an eye opener for some and an "I told you so" moment for others, I don't think we should stop helping folk out, but I do think we should all be aware of our limitations, whether it be our physical fitness, vehicle preparation or the recovery kit we carry, maybe it will encourage more people to go on a winching course, to invest in better recovery points on their vehicles? I don't know, but we all need to be thankful for the people who are prepared to sacrifice their own time and resources to help others.

That is a great post, and more or less reflects my own feelings about the matter.

Over 30 years working on the farms, with heavy machinery on bad ground, large unpredictable animals, chainsaws, falling trees, sometimes with tired and cold staff, you do get very cautious.
Like you, mostly things have gone OK, we have learned safe ways to do things from experience. But occasionally we have had near misses, like when an animal has bolted, or a bumper has detached during a snatch recovery, or a tyre has gone down at the wrong moment on a steep slope with a heavy load.
Fortunately, the worst has never happened on my watch. But I too have attended the funerals of those who were not so lucky.

And the conclusions I have drawn are the same as yours. Try and assess every possible risk, even if it is just in your head, not in a formal way.
Try and prepare for any eventuality. Buy the best equipment, maintain it, and learn how to use it safely. Buy, and use, the protective gear, even when you don't think it will be needed.
Be realistic about your own capabilities and experience. There is never any shame in calling for help, most farmers will ring a neighbour first off in a bad situation. Two heads are better than one, and three are better than two in most situations.
Be realistic about the capabilities of staff and helpers as well. Someone who has seen a situation before will always be more capable and relaxed dealing with the situation than someone who hasn't.
And try and ask, and answer honestly, if you need to be in the situation, and taking the risk, at all. Or would it be better left for another day, or even not done at all.

If the OP in the Welsh situation had done these things, and answered honestly those questions, this situation would never have arisen in the first place.

It is good to challenge yourself to go a little outside your comfort zone. It is not good to take stupid risks, and endanger yourself, and possibly others.
 
By chance was one end of the lane opposite / close to a local drinking house???

Cheers

Looks like the hill over the back is a bit of a 4x4 playground, possibly he’s been attempting a shortcut back to the village?

C7E7E365-F27C-41C8-830C-083D28C0A153_zpsv54nt6an.png
 
Any rescue is for the people, and recovery of the vehicle is a secondary issue.
Anyone who has completed a recognised 'Off-Road Driving and Foul Weather Course', or has had many years of experience in 'proper' Land Rover Trials, knows that walking the course half a dozen times (if necessary), is essential to ensure that the rescuer knows what he/she is letting themselves in
for!
It is also OK to say, "No, I'm not prepared to risk myself, my vehicle or my backup team, so leave your vehicle for recovery later, and we will give you a lift to a safe place."

All good points.

It's very easy to say with hindsight that things should have been done differently - but at the same time its easy to think "a CRV got up there, so a fully equipped landrover will" - especialy when the rescuee has stated that the terrain is ok.

One can only assume that, even if he hadn't got stuck where he did, he wouldn't have made it up the hill that Brian had to be winched up (although the lighter weight of the CRV might have been an advantage).

Most LZIR members operate on trust - but that needs to work both ways, and we need to be able to trust that the person requesting help is actually telling the truth.

I did, previously, say i would help anyone - regardless of whether they were a forum member - and i stand by that. However i think id want to be taking extra precautions if helping someone who had simply appeared here to ask for help.

I dont think an absolute "work in pairs" rule is feasible - but i think it should be seen as best practice, particularly in off road situations, and particularly where the rescuee is completely unknown.

If one of the forum regulars posted to say they'd been an idiot on salisbury plain, managed to get themselves bogged down but were next to a gravel track, i'd happily head up there with a strap and see what was needed. If we had a repeat of the request that came in the other day from Wales, i'd want to be going with a second vehicle.
 
Like a few others, I’ve spent most of my working life round about machines and plant etc and am more than aware of the dangers involved. I agree that no one should ever feel pressured into attempting a recovery they are not comfortable with, or is beyond their, or their equipments capability, but first and foremost you need to be responsible for your own actions and own safety.

Massive respect to bryan47 for turning out to help, but you say you gave the OP a bollocking for getting both your motors stuck, well I’m sorry, but he only got his own stuck...

There is also the question of folk registering to use LZIR as a free recovery service, but on the other hand, there are plenty of guys out there with all the gear just dying to put the capabilities of themselves and their vehicles to the test, and why not?

Personally I wouldn’t have taken my Landy up there, but if someone else was willing to, I’d have went along to help with my jacks / Tirfor / waffles etc just for the fun / challenge of it all.
 
I see no issue with LZIR members choosing to respond to a job like the welsh one - but its important that they know what they';re in for.
Clearly one Disco (and eventually a winch equipped defender) responding on a cold wet day with limited daylight wasnt the right solution. But at the same time a rapid response was not required. (none of this was made clear in the OP)
I'm sure there are a number of people on here who would happily have joined a planned recovery effort, would have welcomed the chance to use their equipment, and have either the equipment, the skills, or both. There are probably others who would have happily gone along for the ride to watch and learn about 4x4 recovery. Had recovery been attempted on a dry day, with a well equipped team starting at daybreak, the outcome would have been very different.
 
I see no issue with LZIR members choosing to respond to a job like the welsh one - but its important that they know what they';re in for.
Clearly one Disco (and eventually a winch equipped defender) responding on a cold wet day with limited daylight wasnt the right solution. But at the same time a rapid response was not required. (none of this was made clear in the OP)
I'm sure there are a number of people on here who would happily have joined a planned recovery effort, would have welcomed the chance to use their equipment, and have either the equipment, the skills, or both. There are probably others who would have happily gone along for the ride to watch and learn about 4x4 recovery. Had recovery been attempted on a dry day, with a well equipped team starting at daybreak, the outcome would have been very different.
I believe 4 vehicles were on site. Rapid response was not given. In fact the attempted recovery wasn’t until the day after we were notified.
 
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