Shippers
Well-Known Member
Defo and why Barry has 10k of equipment to source/check and fix/re-wire problems and not always on modern cars that we sorted...
Defo and why Barry has 10k of equipment to source/check and fix/re-wire problems and not always on modern cars that we sorted...
I remember you telling me about that Cobra.
The Merc looks nice!
I have seen kit cars all wired in the one colour!!!!!
When I do one, I buy a second loom from a scrapper that way I can extend wires exactly the same colour and gauge plus I get a spare set of relays and fuses. Costs peanuts.
LetsHopeItFits
Active Member
Gasless welding vs stick welding, whats the difference? I assumed welding with gas was expensive, I also thought it had to be argon, but then I guess thats another new thing Ive learnt.
Im slightly concerned now, as to why Ive not spotted the ARBs on my disco, so will have a closer look soon.
Welding, and thickness of the material. Im guessing the stuff Ill need to weld is body-related, so thinner than the chassis? The panels are aluminium, and there are fiberglass options available too from what Ive seen, but again not cheap. Ide probably use a similar method as used for bobtailing, only of course slightly shorter, and not having to worry about the boot opening or the rear chassis crossmember
Im slightly concerned now, as to why Ive not spotted the ARBs on my disco, so will have a closer look soon.
Welding, and thickness of the material. Im guessing the stuff Ill need to weld is body-related, so thinner than the chassis? The panels are aluminium, and there are fiberglass options available too from what Ive seen, but again not cheap. Ide probably use a similar method as used for bobtailing, only of course slightly shorter, and not having to worry about the boot opening or the rear chassis crossmember
LetsHopeItFits
Active Member
Wiring - this is where its worth taking time to label stuff when pulling stuff apart, and also where I ask you lot if stuff is compatible. Can I plug the d2 dash / speedo / rev counter etc into the 130 tdi hardware, or do I need a dash and wiring loom from a d1?
Also, the term "rolling chassis" does this mean the same thing to everyone? Does it include stuff like the gearbox, fuel tank, transfer box, steering, pedals, etc?
Also, the term "rolling chassis" does this mean the same thing to everyone? Does it include stuff like the gearbox, fuel tank, transfer box, steering, pedals, etc?
Stick welding involves using thickish wire rods covered in stuff that protects the weld pool as it melts, and then forms slag which you have to knock off unless you are good in which case it practically falls off with a bit of a tap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slag_...is a combination,the flux melts and outgasses.
So-called "Gasless" wire is run through a mig welder with a plastic-type liner on the inside of the tube.
This guy doesn't like it either!
https://www.thewelderswarehouse.com...ere's no such thing as,metal with a flux core.
My welder will apparently take it, although I have never used it, but I didn't know the polarity had to be swapped, I'll have to look closer at my machine!
The gas is commonly called "Cougar" gas cos it contains argon, CO2 and a bit of summit else, so CO-arg(?).
For Christ's sake yes label every bloody thing when taking wires off stuff, and that includes the connections on the "stuff".
If pinching stuff off a donor car, cut the wires a little way off the "stuff" so you can instantly tell which one goes where when linking into your new loom.
I don't think "rolling chassis" means the same to everyone.
Back in the days when car manufacturers didn't include bodies, peeps like Rolls Royce used to build the car so it could be driven with the driver sitting on the toolbox and it went off like that to Mulliner Park Ward or whoever for it to be coach built.
But to many people it just means all the bits you couldn't easily fit with the body in the way, so on its wheels suspension etc preferably with the fuel tank in as that can be such a sod to get in with the body on.
If you think about what stuff has to hang off, then steering and pedals involves having the bulkhead fitted too. So that wouldn't be possible with a Disco body.
In Morgans and SOME kit cars, you can just lift the body off, but you still have to disconnect wiring looms and of course take the steering column etc apart. Just look under the bonnet and count up all the things that are attached to the sides , front and rear of the engine bay.
LetsHopeItFits
Active Member
Very interesting. So how come they are viewed so differently, if, chemically at least, that are the same? Or have I misunderstood?
Anyway, after doing the maths, its starting to look alot more expensive that I initially thought. Lots of little things that cost 10s of pounds to make it work, but theres 100s of the damn things before its actually finished and ready for an MoT. And thats assuming that the body lines up. The main expenses I see, at a minimum, are as follows :
The d2 bodied 300 tdi disco for sale right now, £1600, so lets say £1500 with haggling and getting it here.
Bare 130 chassis, £1000.
New exhaust, £350
Prop shaft, £150?
Some sort of tub, £650
So assuming that all the disco bits fit, its just a few 100 hours of transfering bits, then I need to cut the disco body to fit the tray. This could cost anywhere between a few welding sticks and a full fiberglass kit, so £30-850...
Then theres the cost of actually mounting the body to the chassis, and treating the whole thing to make sure it doesnt rust. And if course, were not going to be nasty and reuse bushes and stuff, so new bushes etc, another £100-200 say. And then theres the stuff to make the defender 130 chassis compatible. New springs and shocks. Also, the axle load limits for the disco, from memory of reading my handbook a few months ago, are 1045 front and 1645 rear, for a total of 2690 or near enough 2.7 tonnes. Not sure if thats enough, but it should be for now. So thats 4k. And thats still on the old brakes, no undersealing etc, disco steering bits, hoping it all fits. Throw in another £1000 for good measure, for all the bits that dont fit, for extended brake and fuel lines. So without any labour, is that a realistic prediction of expenses?
Anyway, after doing the maths, its starting to look alot more expensive that I initially thought. Lots of little things that cost 10s of pounds to make it work, but theres 100s of the damn things before its actually finished and ready for an MoT. And thats assuming that the body lines up. The main expenses I see, at a minimum, are as follows :
The d2 bodied 300 tdi disco for sale right now, £1600, so lets say £1500 with haggling and getting it here.
Bare 130 chassis, £1000.
New exhaust, £350
Prop shaft, £150?
Some sort of tub, £650
So assuming that all the disco bits fit, its just a few 100 hours of transfering bits, then I need to cut the disco body to fit the tray. This could cost anywhere between a few welding sticks and a full fiberglass kit, so £30-850...
Then theres the cost of actually mounting the body to the chassis, and treating the whole thing to make sure it doesnt rust. And if course, were not going to be nasty and reuse bushes and stuff, so new bushes etc, another £100-200 say. And then theres the stuff to make the defender 130 chassis compatible. New springs and shocks. Also, the axle load limits for the disco, from memory of reading my handbook a few months ago, are 1045 front and 1645 rear, for a total of 2690 or near enough 2.7 tonnes. Not sure if thats enough, but it should be for now. So thats 4k. And thats still on the old brakes, no undersealing etc, disco steering bits, hoping it all fits. Throw in another £1000 for good measure, for all the bits that dont fit, for extended brake and fuel lines. So without any labour, is that a realistic prediction of expenses?
As a D1 is pre ecus, unless you have a late model auto, you cannot plug a D2 dash into it, cos that is all electrickery driven. Think of all, the warning lights you get with one?
Believe me, when it comes to wiring not much is that easy! Even trying to plug in a D1 dash to a TDi Defender loom might not be all that easy, but I don't know i have never tried. Is a Defender dash that awful?
I'd be tempted to take the existing dash and modify it, adding stuff if necessary.
You can get instruments and senders easily now, just look around the kit car scene they do it all the time Car builder solutions and Europa are two that spring to mind.
The instruments I have for the one I am building at the mo all came from Europa and are period looking with cream coloured faces/dials yet have senders that will go on a Pinto engine. Even an oil pressure sender that goes to a dial instead of a light. It's very possible to make a really cool dash. Or you can go ultra modern with an all LED thing if that is what floats your boat.
I must go to bed now!
Cheers!
Stan
LetsHopeItFits
Active Member
The problem with the defender isnt so much how it looks, its how bad the seating position is, how small the windows are, particularly in the back, how you litterally have to drive with your arm out of the window, and how you smack into the b pillar when offroading. I love a defender as much as everyone else Im sure, I just dont want to live with one, ide much rather a disco.
OK, (I'm still here) and I get that.
Do bear in mind that a D2 is quite a bit longer than a D1, for what it's worth.
Very little though is compatible with a D1, although peeps have put D2 bodies on extended D1 chassis.
and finally tonight, have a look at this thread as it is similar to what you will be doing and read how much stuff costs, just to rechassis, and remember this was in 2019 before prices went through the roof.
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/chassis-replacement-cost.346530/
LetsHopeItFits
Active Member
D1 vs D2 Im very conflicted. On one hand, stuff like bullbars are interchangable, the wheelbase is the same, the lights are interchangable (300 tdi and prefacelift) my D1 has a prefacelift d2 dash in it (D2 vin and all) and the wheelbase is the same. The only bits that are clearly different are the axles, suspension and rear bit behind the axle, its longer, so the boot is bigger. Now for this use, the boot size, and everything behind the rear axle/c pillar is irrelevant, because its getting chopped off and going in the bin. The D2 body is alot less prone to rust, which is the only reason Im drawn to choosing it over a D1, but if its going to be harder to fit, Ide use a D1. As for chassis prices, that came from facebook marketplace/gumtree/ebay for a used 2nd hand chassis with V5. Another option that just came into my head, and may or may not be totally dumb, is to chop the back off a disco chassis and weld the back of a 130 on. Come to think of it, maybe any chassis would work, if cut in a different place. I dont have an "ideal" wheelbase in mind, 130 seems a tad long, but 110 is too short, so maybe 120 is a better idea, cutting 2 disco chassis, the front one being cut say just before the bend for the rear axle, the other 20 inches further forwards, and joining the two, giving an extra 20 inches in the middle. Again may be a totally bonkers idea that would never see the road without a Q-plate, but it does seem "easier" as it involves almost no wiring, and no body swapping, just cutting and welding, and maybe extending a few wires/lines for the lights, fuel and brakes.
The moment you alter the chassis you will need an IVA test. AFAIK.
NOT for the faint hearted or the short on dosh.
Shippers
Well-Known Member
For me whats more worrying is the havn't welded/wired or as it is becoming apparant much spannering on Disco's...what he's planning is a major project that needs alot of expertise to get it right and straight from a saftey point of view...
As an ex-teacher I have a lot of sympathy with him. He is full of ideas and ambition but massively short on expertise and experience. I just wish I had his enthusiasm.
Maybe he wishes he had our experience.
He needs an older more experienced mate.
But yes, the safety issue(s) has to be addressed. But if he DOES end up going the IVA route, they will cover it.
Just read today about a bloke failing his IVA. In my club magazine. The two blokes took 5 hours to carry out the test.
They really do not mess about. Even though they told him how to get around all the problems and were actually quite decent about it all.
Failed on 14 points. Among which, exhaust fitted too close to the floor and under the petrol tank, Mirrors too low. Positions of indicators, Inadequate mounting of front bumper, panel edges, fuel tank not full, (!).
The retest took 2 hours! So nothing major at all, the big things were all fine.
Shippers
Well-Known Member
Too make sure it doesnt leak when full...
In my 20s I built a timber frame building in Dobbie's garden centre in Scotland when it was the headquarters and opened a water garden centre...planners rejected building due to lack of ventilation and I had to fit huge fans along the back wall...last thing you want to do with 60 tropical tanks to keep warm! but had to be done...as I was leaving meeting in council office agreeing to fit them I got to the door and the officer said "I didn't say you had to switch them on"..lol
I'm not sure why it had to be full, although what you say makes sense, but also they weigh both axles to determine all sorts of other stuff, so I think this may have a bearing.....altho normally they determine "normal" weight as being with a half full tank and just the driver in it!
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Sh!t I am really screwing up my posting tonight.
i'll have to edit!
i'll have to edit!
A thought on fuelling.
What is the LPG situation like where you live, i.e. is it easily and regularly available?
Cos my V8 disco 1 has a pro fitted system with 4 tanks and a smaller petrol tank, which cheapens the consumption, BUT there are far fewer places flogging LPG now.
You may be lucky and pick up the kit secondhand. I bought mine for £1250 a few years ago with a manual Disco 1 thrown in for free!
It is far cleaner than either petrol or diesel, which must be why the govt isn't promoting it. Tw@ts
LetsHopeItFits
Active Member
Youve hit the nail on the head. Although lack of experience may be the reason for my enthusiasm. More than happy to buddy up with anyone who can help
LPG, a couple of places still have it. My disco did have an LPG kit, twin torpedo tanks (probably saved the sills from the salt) but the previous owner removed it because it was old/broken/leaky or whatever. Really, spending 2k on an LPG kit and installation on a 26 year old disco that only cost 2k...
IVA, its begining to look like the sensible option, partially because it means someone else goes over it thoroughly, and because it means I dont need a big 4 post lift. As for lining stuff up, measure many times, cut once, making sure to leave excess material to take away later.
But yes, stanleysteamer, faultless analysis (;
LPG, a couple of places still have it. My disco did have an LPG kit, twin torpedo tanks (probably saved the sills from the salt) but the previous owner removed it because it was old/broken/leaky or whatever. Really, spending 2k on an LPG kit and installation on a 26 year old disco that only cost 2k...
IVA, its begining to look like the sensible option, partially because it means someone else goes over it thoroughly, and because it means I dont need a big 4 post lift. As for lining stuff up, measure many times, cut once, making sure to leave excess material to take away later.
But yes, stanleysteamer, faultless analysis (;
Shippers
Well-Known Member
You go through IVA after youv'e built it and they give you a pass or fail on your work and you pay for it they don't fix it and you won't be present either while they do it all you'll get is their result...