At what point does the matter change from civil to criminal? From contract to provides goods or a service, to theft? This is quite important as I think you will find the insurance company will be looking into the detail of this being theft or not. They stand to loose £15k+ so quite important. Police will only investigate crime. They don't do civil matters.

Yes I was wondering about this, without reading the entire thread again did the insurance pay out? if not will they as they don't normally pay out when the keys to the vehicle have been handed over by the owner of the vehicle as they don't consider it theft.
 
I have rearranged the quotes with our names against them as this were missing, in order to make it clearer.


At what point does the matter change from civil to criminal? From contract to provides goods or a service, to theft? This is quite important as I think you will find the insurance company will be looking into the detail of this being theft or not. They stand to loose £15k+ so quite important. Police will only investigate crime. They don't do civil matters.

Re-read your post (was on a long lunch yesterday with some good wine)and that point you made is correct when and where did it change from civil to theft I would suggest if there was contact with the lowlife scum after they picked the vehicle up and took it to England then the theft was there. The insurance company would not be interested in a theft report and cctv from Scottish Police due to the fact that it would be irrelevant as they know who stole the vehicle and where it went.
In the first instance the OP talked to the “garage” about repairing his car. This we assume includes a discussion on what was wrong, the likely cause, and what they could offer to help him, and the price. The result being: collection, repair, supply of parts and delivery back to him for an agreed price which had to be paid up front.

At no point in the above paragraph have I mentioned or hinted the “garage” are doing anything other than what I wrote.

The OP agrees to the above. Vehicle is collected. Photo’s are supplied of his vehicle (or another) being repaired. At some point after this the “garage” stops entering into communication with the OP. The OP struggles to contact them. The OP panics, searches the web and he realises this may have been a scam.

As you are struggling with this I will give you another eggsample which I hope will make things more clear.

A thief is looking to pinch a car. He has stolen them before and lives off the proceeds. He’s eyeing up a target vehicle at the local main dealer. He has to work out how to pinch said vehicle, be it with a key he takes from them or tow it away. It won’t tow so he knows he will have to pick it up with a hiab. The place is locked up at night with camera’s and security watching. It would be too obvious to pop round with a recovery truck in the day time and pick it up. He doesn’t know where the key is so he can’t drive it away.

While pondering the above his phone rings. The caller tells him his car needs repaired. It’s a 4x4 based in Scotland with what he believes to be a broken engine. They discuss this for a bit. The thief then see’s his opportunity to take advantage of the caller. He offers to collect, repair and return back to him his car for a fixed price of many thousands of English pounds. The caller agrees to this. The phone calls ends with them agreeing the collection will take place in a few days and the money will be paid up front. IT IS AT THIS POINT THE DEAL CHANGES FROM CIVIL TO THEFT BY DECEPTION (ORGANISED CRIME). The call terminates and the thief shouts across the office “Ere that 4x4 at the local dealer… ferget about it. Another fool has just been on the phone and has agreed we can collect his 4x4 and loads of money if we repair it. Bring yer passport to work tomorrow… yer got work to do”. The thief then calls one of his own customers who recently asked about buying an engine from him. The thief tells said customer he has just got wind of a suitable engine and will be able to sell it to him in a few days. He’s also got a set of low mileage alloys due in soon if he’s interested.

If the above hasn’t made this obvious enough then the following might.

The OP believed he was entering into a civil contract for collection, repair and return of his car. The thief knew this and agreed to do it but also knew he had no intension to collect, repair and return said car. His real intention was to collect the car under the disguise of a civil contract to repair said car, but keep said car for himself. He would then take out the engine and sells it to one of his own customers. He then disposes of the rest of the vehicle and keeps the “loads of money” paid by the OP for what the OP thought was payment to repair his car.

Do you seriously not understand what’s happened to the OP? A disco 4 was taken by deception from Scotland under the promise of repair and has disappeared. The “garage” is well dodgy and known to have “stolen” other peoples cars in the past by pretending to take them away to be repaired and not giving them back. Are you still having problems with this as a concept?

The change from civil to criminal is important as it means the police will go from not interested to interested if it becomes a criminal matter. Providing evidence he was tricked into having his car “stolen” under the promise of it being repaired, is key to weather is was stolen by “deception” or not. One would suggest from what we know, this is what has happened.

I should at this point say the “garage” who may well be reading this are welcome to join LZ and put forward their side of the story. Tis only fair we allow them to defend the allegations put against them. It could well have been a simple misunderstanding like the OP wasn’t at home when they delivered the car back to Scotland so they left it with a neighbour. The neighbour hasn’t cut his grass for 15 years so didn’t know the car was there.

It is NOT an arrestable o’fence to steal a car by deception or other method. It is an investigable o’fence which may lead to an arrest if evidence suggests a crime has been committed and the perpetrator thought to have been identified.

I put it to you that the “garage” had every intention to collect the vehicle and not give it back. It was their intended plan all along and they took advantage of the OP not realising until it was too late.


Re-read your post (was on a long lunch yesterday with some good wine)and that point you made is correct when and where did it change from civil to theft I would suggest if there was contact with the lowlife scum after they picked the vehicle up and took it to England then the theft was there. The insurance company would not be interested in a theft report and cctv from Scottish Police due to the fact that it would be irrelevant as they know who stole the vehicle and where it went.
To be more specific on the above quote:

The theft took place when they took possession of the vehicle in Scotland. We believe it was always their intention to take the vehicle and not give it back. The theft occurred at the point of collection because it was their intention to nick it all along. It was stolen by deception.

ANPR will provide evidence where the merc reg plate was snapped that day. Hopefully the disco still had it’s plate fitted anorl and will also have been snapped. This is vital information to prove where it went that day because WE DON’T KNOW. Proof it was collected by the merc which is connected to the business the OP was dealing with when agreeing with them to get his car repaired. Proof they took it will be needed. Do you really think the insurance will hand over £15k+ without proof it’s been stolen by deception?
 
Yes I was wondering about this, without reading the entire thread again did the insurance pay out? if not will they as they don't normally pay out when the keys to the vehicle have been handed over by the owner of the vehicle as they don't consider it theft.
The OP hasn't given an update. As far as we know his insurance company are aware of him reporting it stolen and looking into it.

Regarding handing over keys... I came across someone a few years ago who handed over his keys under threat by a group who staged a surprised attack. The insurance did pay out in the end but spent some time arguing it wasn't insured because he gave them the keys. It was a gang with metal bars so he didn't have much choice but the insurance still fought their corner initially.
 
But where do you think the actual crime was commited @Hippo suggests in Scotland but if you ask someone to pick your vehicle up and give them the keys and at some point 8k and wave it good bye to be taken to a garage you agreed it would be repaired at in England when it's not returned which police force do you contact.

Sorry just seen this. I meant that “organised crime” is just that. They wouldn’t keep doing it if they were going to get caught. They know what they’re doing.
 
Sorry just seen this. I meant that “organised crime” is just that. They wouldn’t keep doing it if they were going to get caught. They know what they’re doing.

Yes they do but at what point can you define the vehicle was stolen...a good defence lawyer will trash a stealing by deception charge because of the contact between op and supposed thief...and a good prosecution lawyer will argue that at the point for example they sold the engine was the point of theft...
 
I have just found this forum on google and after reading it I feel compelled to give my story , I too have been conned by the same
Bloke , he operates a smoke screen , I found them online ,advertised as a company in north wales , called them and was given a quote for a rebuild including collection and delivery from Cheltenham , when the engine was stripped down they sent me a msg saying I needed a new head and cams and a new crank , I won’t bore you with all the details but after 3 months the engine has locked up and I’ve had to buy a new engine , even when it was delivered back to me it had bodywork damage caused by the ratchet strap on the truck and that cost me £350 ! So in total I spent £3640 and the engine lasted 3 months , he is a complete fraud and is not to be trusted with a dinky toy let alone a real car
 
Yes they do but at what point can you define the vehicle was stolen...a good defence lawyer will trash a stealing by deception charge because of the contact between op and supposed thief...and a good prosecution lawyer will argue that at the point for example they sold the engine was the point of theft...

I wasn’t questioning the ins and outs of the crime, just saying these people are no fools and they don’t get away with it for no reason. Organised crime is just that, and if you think it doesn’t extend into the police and other organisations then that’s bit neive. I’m not saying that’s what happened in this case, but when people seem to be getting away with so much for so long you have to ask why.

Most likely down to the wording in their paperwork (or lack of)
 
I have just found this forum on google and after reading it I feel compelled to give my story , I too have been conned by the same
Bloke , he operates a smoke screen , I found them online ,advertised as a company in north wales , called them and was given a quote for a rebuild including collection and delivery from Cheltenham , when the engine was stripped down they sent me a msg saying I needed a new head and cams and a new crank , I won’t bore you with all the details but after 3 months the engine has locked up and I’ve had to buy a new engine , even when it was delivered back to me it had bodywork damage caused by the ratchet strap on the truck and that cost me £350 ! So in total I spent £3640 and the engine lasted 3 months , he is a complete fraud and is not to be trusted with a dinky toy let alone a real car

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on getting your vehicle back
 
Scotland is daft. They have to have Scottish BBC, Scottish NHS. It wouldn't surprise me if they have their own separate police who's first language int English.
I wasn’t questioning the ins and outs of the crime, just saying these people are no fools and they don’t get away with it for no reason. Organised crime is just that, and if you think it doesn’t extend into the police and other organisations then that’s bit neive. I’m not saying that’s what happened in this case, but when people seem to be getting away with so much for so long you have to ask why.

Most likely down to the wording in their paperwork (or lack of)

So was it theft or fraud?...agree down to wording...

The top part was from @Hippo not you...
 
Scotland is daft. They have to have Scottish BBC, Scottish NHS. It wouldn't surprise me if they have their own separate police who's first language int English.


So was it theft or fraud?...agree down to wording...

Personally, as an uneducated idiot, I’d say fraud.
 
Yes they do but at what point can you define the vehicle was stolen...a good defence lawyer will trash a stealing by deception charge because of the contact between op and supposed thief...and a good prosecution lawyer will argue that at the point for example they sold the engine was the point of theft...
A defence team would struggle in court to defend anything the garage has done to the OP. They have the car. They have the money. Why didn't they give it back during the 3 months they had it.

There's so many people who have been tricked with the same "process" of taking money and cars off them it's unbelievable. Those who do get them back often find the work done is poor. Smoke screen addresses to hide who they are.

As said previously the paperwork must be diluted in some way so the detail isn't there.
 
I have just found this forum on google and after reading it I feel compelled to give my story , I too have been conned by the same
Bloke , he operates a smoke screen , I found them online ,advertised as a company in north wales , called them and was given a quote for a rebuild including collection and delivery from Cheltenham , when the engine was stripped down they sent me a msg saying I needed a new head and cams and a new crank , I won’t bore you with all the details but after 3 months the engine has locked up and I’ve had to buy a new engine , even when it was delivered back to me it had bodywork damage caused by the ratchet strap on the truck and that cost me £350 ! So in total I spent £3640 and the engine lasted 3 months , he is a complete fraud and is not to be trusted with a dinky toy let alone a real car
It would be good if you registered a complaint about your experience to trading standards. Once they start to see complaints build up they will hopefully look into it. They can go after them for poor business practice if that's what they find.

Edit: what car was this on?
 
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A defence team would struggle in court to defend anything the garage has done to the OP. They have the car. They have the money. Why didn't they give it back during the 3 months they had it.

There's so many people who have been tricked with the same "process" of taking money and cars off them it's unbelievable. Those who do get them back often find the work done is poor. Smoke screen addresses to hide who they are.

As said previously the paperwork must be diluted in some way so the detail isn't there.

That's fraud then not theft wouldn't you agree?...
 
That's fraud then not theft wouldn't you agree?...
Theft is taking without owner permission something you can steal with intention not to give it back. That includes hiding it so it can't be found like it's scrapped and shredded or selling in bits so the owner won't get it back. There's an element of theft here because the OP allowed him to have it for intention to repair. He didn't allow him to have it permanently (currently ignoring him so refusing to give it back by default). With them having it 3 months and refusing to reply to contact, this helps proove they're depriving the owner of resolving the issue of getting the car back. Most peeps would eggspect him to want it back as he paid for a repair. But that's only if the paperwork is clear in what he was paying for originally. I'm guessing it's not.

Fraud is obtaining something by deceiving the person. Pretending to do one thing rather than what you actually intended to do. I think this is what has happened here. Tricked into handing over car for repair when they planned otherwise.

I think it would be easier to catch them out on fraud if you could prove what they actually did with the car. This is likely to have poor paperwork trace so not easy. There will be trace of buying shipping/transport overseas but engine numbers will be made up or not on the paperwork to hide the trail.

I'm not a legal eggspert... But I think you would need to go back to basics of fraud and theft, and use one to prove the other.

Theft prooves fraud and fraud prooves theft. As in the result of one proves the other.

Not giving it back and not being able to give it back, proves they disposed of it in some way. This was never the original agreement and provides the element of deception which is needed to proove fraud. If yer can prove that was always the intention (because they stripped for parts etc) then that's fraud.
 
In England, Wales & Northern Ireland the various 'Thefts by deception' offences of the various Theft Acts from 1968 onwards were repealed & replaced by the provisions of the Fraud Act 2006 which came into force in 2007.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...eception-offences-in-the-theft-acts-1968-1996
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/contents

Scotland have their own legal system & many laws are different.

I have no idea what, where & when an offence may have taken place. I doubt we are getting the full story & I wonder what advice the Police may have received from the CPS (in England & Wales) or the Procurator Fiscal (in Scotland) as any investigation would be cross border.
 
take a weed killer spray primed with petrol go to the premises with that and a zippo or flare gun , jobs a goodun and it has been done before
 
take a weed killer spray primed with petrol go to the premises with that and a zippo or flare gun , jobs a goodun and it has been done before
Good idea. Street view shows lots of cameras around the site and surrounding streets. It's as if there's a lot of crime int area. Cover yer plates/face. Dun't need to tell us how yer get on. It will be ont news and we will act surprised. Dun't worry about posts on ere. One of the adults will delete them. ;)
 

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