Hippo said:

I can't remember where he lived but I think he was going to be charged movement tax to go to where he worked. One of those London or outer London entry tax per day things.

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He lived in London and travelled into the congestion zone often as I remember.

300bhp/ton said:

They even come with the battery rather than rent it. Someone on PistonHeads traded in a Micra (£2k down essentially) and has the Leaf for 4 years for £165/month. Charging costs are actually very low and essentially free if you use public charge points or ones at your work

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The energy needed to move a vehicle down the road a given distance can be given a KWhr rating for that distance.
For example.
If a FL1 TD4 is doing 30Mpg (much lower than the true figures). Then a quick calculation gives a KWhr per energy useage per mile of 0.622. This is based on standard pump diesel with an energy conversion rate of 40% in the TD4 engine.
Keep in mind that this is well under a normal Mpg for the FL1 TD4 manual. Also remember that all electrical power and heat for the interior are effectively created for free in the FL1 TD4.

Now direct comparison with electric vehicles gets very complex. But we can do a quick back of the envelope calculation, based on the TD4 FL1's energy consumption, using these figures.
Diesel at £1.35 per litre.
TD4 FL1 doing 30 Mpg (well under actual).
Electricity cost of 15 Pence per KWhr.

The calculations on the energy used in KWhr per mile.
FL1 TD4 worked out as 0.622 KWhr per mile as I said above. So applying this to a hypothetical electric vehicle in pure electrical supply terms , the electricity input works out as 9.3 Pence per mile, if the electricity costs 15 Pence per unit (1 KWhr). The FL1 as above costs the equivalent of 20.4 Pence per mile in diesel costs. So in pur energy per KWhr, the electric vehicle costs considerably less than the 30 MPG TD4. However this does assume 100% efficiency for the electric vehicle, which can't happen. It also assumes that all the input electrical energy is used to drive the vehicle down the road, which of course it's not. So when inefficiencies from the charger, batteries, speed controllers, motors are added, the actual cost per mile increases significantly, and that doesn't include using electrical energy to operate lights, heater and everything else that is powdered for "free" in a TD4 Freelander.

I've also give the TD4 a very low Mpg figure, simply to show worst case scenario. This is put against a best case scenario of an electric vehicle, using the same conversion factors.

In reality, the electric vehicle will cost twice as much per mile, and will only get worse as the batteries age. The batteries themselves cost a substantial amount to replace, possibly several thousand Pounds and only have an acceptable service life of 4 or 5 years. This makes an electric vehicle far from an "economy" choice, even if the batteries are rented, which some electric vehicle maker's do.

So in real terms, an electric vehicle can be considered an expensive form of transport, regardless of how it's sold to us, unless it's to overcome some local government money making scheme.

Hippo said:

I can't remember where he lived but I think he was going to be charged movement tax to go to where he worked. One of those London or outer London entry tax per day things. If it were say £10 per day it would hit several £k in a year. I think Freelander's should be eggsempt.

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Epicuser was from Croydon.

Think he had his fun with his Freelander, then moved on to his next toy.

Nodge68 said:

He lived in London and travelled into the congestion zone often as I remember.


The energy needed to move a vehicle down the road a given distance can be given a KWhr rating for that distance.
For example.
If a FL1 TD4 is doing 30Mpg (much lower than the true figures). Then a quick calculation gives a KWhr per energy useage per mile of 0.622. This is based on standard pump diesel with an energy conversion rate of 40% in the TD4 engine.
Keep in mind that this is well under a normal Mpg for the FL1 TD4 manual. Also remember that all electrical power and heat for the interior are effectively created for free in the FL1 TD4.

Now direct comparison with electric vehicles gets very complex. But we can do a quick back of the envelope calculation, based on the TD4 FL1's energy consumption, using these figures.
Diesel at £1.35 per litre.
TD4 FL1 doing 30 Mpg (well under actual).
Electricity cost of 15 Pence per KWhr.

The calculations on the energy used in KWhr per mile.
FL1 TD4 worked out as 0.622 KWhr per mile as I said above. So applying this to a hypothetical electric vehicle in pure electrical supply terms , the electricity input works out as 9.3 Pence per mile, if the electricity costs 15 Pence per unit (1 KWhr). The FL1 as above costs the equivalent of 20.4 Pence per mile in diesel costs. So in pur energy per KWhr, the electric vehicle costs considerably less than the 30 MPG TD4. However this does assume 100% efficiency for the electric vehicle, which can't happen. It also assumes that all the input electrical energy is used to drive the vehicle down the road, which of course it's not. So when inefficiencies from the charger, batteries, speed controllers, motors are added, the actual cost per mile increases significantly, and that doesn't include using electrical energy to operate lights, heater and everything else that is powdered for "free" in a TD4 Freelander.

I've also give the TD4 a very low Mpg figure, simply to show worst case scenario. This is put against a best case scenario of an electric vehicle, using the same conversion factors.

In reality, the electric vehicle will cost twice as much per mile, and will only get worse as the batteries age. The batteries themselves cost a substantial amount to replace, possibly several thousand Pounds and only have an acceptable service life of 4 or 5 years. This makes an electric vehicle far from an "economy" choice, even if the batteries are rented, which some electric vehicle maker's do.

So in real terms, an electric vehicle can be considered an expensive form of transport, regardless of how it's sold to us, unless it's to overcome some local government money making scheme.

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Hi. Interesting post. I was more meaning cost of running to a persons bank balance.

Such an EV would be quite cost effective month to month.

Also I wouldn’t say 30mpg is that under what a Td4 gets.

We have a small EV - a VW eUp!

Wife charges it for free at work and servicing costs are minimal. For her commute, nothing can touch it.

For other tasks, we have some other cars - mostly 15-25 years old and still going strong

rob_bell said:

We have a small EV - a VW eUp!

Wife charges it for free at work and servicing costs are minimal. For her commute, nothing can touch it.

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That's what EVs are for IMO. They're hopeless for driving across the country, unless you want to stop multiple times for charging on route.

I would be tempted to do an EV drive conversion on a good condition FL1 though.

I agree: and diesel is perfect for those long distance cross-country jaunts

With improvements in battery technology, it may soon be possible to have a practical family EV (Tresla and Jag iPace fit the bill, but are a bit too expensive still)

Nodge68 said:

I would be tempted to do an EV drive conversion on a good condition FL1 though.

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That same thought has crossed my mind too. There is a guy that was shown on a YouTube channel called Fully Charged that does conversions, or you can buy the stuff and do it yourself.

Nodge68 said:

The savings of an electric car over a diesel are very small, if at all. If all factors are taken into account, like increased monthly electric cost, short electric car battery life and the increased initial outlay for the car. There's no such thing as a cheap to run electric car, when it's worked out in pence per mile.

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I spoke to a guy recently who bought a 2 year old Nissan Leaf for his wife to commute to work. It was a similar price to any other car of similar spec and age but their monthly fuel bill fell from around £140 for petrol to around £40 for the extra electricity.
I agree the early cars were not suitable for going anywhere far but newer cars like the Hyundia Kona and Kia e-Niro can do around 300 miles on a charge and are reasonably priced..
Tesla's are regularly getting well over 100k miles on the original battery so battery life is better than was feared.
We're very close to electric cars that are practical for 99% of users 99% of the time.

Not a Freelander but this was the only video of a Land Rover I think they have shown.

NewFreeLandy said:

Not a Freelander but this was the only video of a Land Rover I think they have shown.

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Fully Charged is one of my favourite shows on YouTube but most of the converted cars they show have a very small range, the new EV's coming from the far east and Jaguar-LR are much more practical and VW are about to launch new EV's.
I always said that once EV's have a range of 300 miles or more then they are no longer niche and range anxiety won't be an issue any more. How many times do normal folk drive more than 300 miles in a day. Charging stations will soon replace filling stations and modern fast chargers will recharge your car to 80% in less than an hour, or the time it takes to have a lunch break.
The world of cars is changing very rapidly.

NewFreeLandy said:

That same thought has crossed my mind too. There is a guy that was shown on a YouTube channel called Fully Charged that does conversions, or you can buy the stuff and do it yourself.

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It's something I've looked at, although only briefly. The initial outlay for the conversion is high, with minimal returns on the investment. So from a financial perspective it's a non starter.

Alibro said:

I spoke to a guy recently who bought a 2 year old Nissan Leaf for his wife to commute to work. It was a similar price to any other car of similar spec and age but their monthly fuel bill fell from around £140 to around £40 for the extra electricity.
I agree the early cars were not suitable for going anywhere far but newer cars like the Hyundia Kona and Kia e-Niro can do around 300 miles on a charge and are reasonably priced..
Tesla's are regularly getting well over 100k miles on the original battery so battery life is better than was feared.
We're very close to electric cars that are practical for 99% of users 99% of the time.

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You have to put new owners economy gains in the "exaggerated" column when switching to an EV from a liquid fuel.
It's a difficult thing to calculate exactly, but a liquid fuel like diesel still contains over 10.5 KWh of energy per litre. Which if burned at 100% efficiency works out at around 12.5 Pence per KWh of energy. Now my current supplier is changing me 16 Pence per KWh for my electric. So straight away it's more expensive to put each KWh of energy into an EV battery, than pour and equivalent amount of liquid fuel into a fuel tank. Now there are inefficiencies in burning liquid fuels to run an engine, something in the order of 50% loss is pretty accurate. However there are also inefficiencies in the charging, storage and consumption of the electricity used by the EV.

In physics terms, there's no free lunches, which means energy can't be pulled from nowhere. Whenever energy (electricity) is moved from location (the plug socket) to the EV's battery in this case, there's going to be an energy loss, given off as heat. Then the battery its self isn't 100% efficient, so also loosing energy as it charges and then again as it discharges. Then the EV motor controller will be inefficient, more heat being lost and the motor will be the same. In some EVs, the heat loss from the drive power systems are so large, they need liquid coolant to be circulated to cool them. Now all these losses where heat is generated, is wasted energy which has a direct effect on the cost of the running of the EV. It's a bit like using electricity from the house power socket to heat the house using convection heaters, only when half the windows in the house are open. You can warm up the house, but you'll use much more energy, then warming the house with the windows shut.

Now if we do a quick calculation of this guy with the Leaf saving £100 per month on fuel when going to electric.
£140 of diesel is about 100 litres of diesel, give or take. That amount of diesel in KWh of energy is 1050 KWh of energy. Those same 1050 KWh of energy from my current electric supplier would cost £168, which is considerably more than the £40 he said, and £28 more than the equivalent energy in £140 worth of diesel.

Of course a diesel engine isn't 100% efficient at turning all the energy contained in the fuel, into useful energy to move the vehicle. It's closer to 50% in a modern diesel, so this makes the diesel more expensive than the above figures show. So say the diesel is now only 50% efficient at turning all the energy contained in the fuel to useful energy to move the vehicle. That same £140 now only yields 525 KWh of energy to actually move the vehicle down the road. In electrical terms, this is £84 if charged at my current supplier rate. This on paper appears a lot less expensive than running a diesel, however this doesn't take into account the inefficiencies of charging, storing, and using the electricity in the EV. When these inefficiencies are applied, the EV doesn't appear to be so cost effective. The actual inefficiency figures for an EV are pretty difficult to find, but I'm guessing they'll be in the order of 30%. So any potential savings on the above amount will be reduced by around 30%, which will push the real cost of those 525 KWh of electricity up to about £110.
This is all back of the envelope type calculations, but it's pretty representative of what savings are to be had by switching to an EV.

However you do need to keep in mind, that an EV uses much more electrical power in winter, when the heater, lights and wipers are all on, reducing range and adding to charging costs. All these things are effectively free energy in a diesel vehicle, where the heat for the heater is taken from the coolant and any electrical power needed also comes from the engine.

In real terms the EV is comparable to diesel running costs, but it's not as massively cheaper as owners of such vehicles claim, unless they're charging them at someone else's expense of course.

EVs are getting better all the time, so time will tell just how good they get, by the time we all have to drive them.

I must admit, the idea of a 5 door eV freelander is a nice idea as a daily.

I'm pretty sure my maths will be screwed up here but I'll give it a go and you can all have a good laugh at my expense.
So the Hyundai Kona has a 64kWh battery. Lets say the charger is 90% efficient (it should be much better) so it takes around 70kWh of electricity to charge it.
My electricity provider charges around 15p per kWh so 0.15 x 70 = £10.56
On a full charge it will go between 200 miles on a cold day on the motorway to 300 miles on a warm day on country roads so say average 250 miles
So that's £10.56 / 250 miles = 4.2p per mile, lets be generous and say there are lots of battery losses etc so 5p per mile.
My TD4 Freelander will do around 40mpg or 8.8mpl and Diesel is currently around £1.25p per litre so it averages around 14.2p per mile.
My Zafira will do 47mpg or 10.35mpl so around 12.1p per mile.

Am I missing something?

Alibro said:

Am I missing something?

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Going by your maths, the EV looks cheaper to run than a TD4 by a long chalk and in reality is cheaper. However were are you getting the mileage figures for the EV? If they're from the manufacturers, then they can often be taken with a pinch of salt. Much like any manufacturers normal car MPG figures.

How much energy that is needed to propel a vehicle down the road is the most important factor in any calculations. Now I know a TD4 manual at 70 Mph does about 35Mpg, or 0.22 Litres per mile. 0.22 Litres of diesel contains about 2 KW of energy so 2 KWh per mile is being consumed. Which in electrical costs is about 36 Pence per mile. Don't forget that the diesel is only 50% efficient, so 1 kWh of energy is going to waste. It's mostly given off as heat, via the exhaust or through the cooling system. Some of this heat is used to heat the cabin, so isn't really wasted. So for the EV to be cheaper to run than a TD4, it must use less energy than Freelander, which it undoubtedly does. But does it use only a 1/4 of the energy to move it down the road compared to the FL1? I'm not so sure about that.
Also don't forget that we're comparing chalk and cheese here, by putting a 20 year old FL1 against a new EV.

Now if we were to compare a modern 1.4 L diesel VW polo doing 80 odd Mpg against an equivalent sized EV, then the EV doesn't have such an obvious cost per mile benefit. Also take into consideration that the batteries on EVs onle give a 5 or 6 year life, with a major cost to replace. The costs per mile, when worked out for the full vehicle life, don't look anywhere near as favourable for the EV.

A couple of other things to consider: transportation fuels (petrol, diesel) is heavily taxed in a way that domestic electricity supplies are not. That may change, but the other thing that bothers me is that as EV acceptance increases, the economies of scale associated with the extraction of crude oil, its refinement and subsequent distribution will be impacted with the inevitable increase in pump prices (and ultimately, restriction in availability) that will only accelerate EV usage.

In the long term, I expect that everything will become electric. I would also anticipate that local micro-generation of electrical power will become more important - most likely renewable: especially solar. And advancements in mass energy storage will facilitate this change, although there will always be a national grid.

Back to lift kits: I need to sort out the faulty ABS sensor, the coolant rail and the passenger door lock before embarking on any major modification of my Hippo - but a lift kit does remain on my "to-do" list

Nodge68 said:

Going by your maths, the EV looks cheaper to run than a TD4 by a long chalk and in reality is cheaper. However were are you getting the mileage figures for the EV? If they're from the manufacturers, then they can often be taken with a pinch of salt. Much like any manufacturers normal car MPG figures.

How much energy that is needed to propel a vehicle down the road is the most important factor in any calculations. Now I know a TD4 manual at 70 Mph does about 35Mpg, or 0.22 Litres per mile. 0.22 Litres of diesel contains about 2 KW of energy so 2 KWh per mile is being consumed. Which in electrical costs is about 36 Pence per mile. Don't forget that the diesel is only 50% efficient, so 1 kWh of energy is going to waste. It's mostly given off as heat, via the exhaust or through the cooling system. Some of this heat is used to heat the cabin, so isn't really wasted. So for the EV to be cheaper to run than a TD4, it must use less energy than Freelander, which it undoubtedly does. But does it use only a 1/4 of the energy to move it down the road compared to the FL1? I'm not so sure about that.
Also don't forget that we're comparing chalk and cheese here, by putting a 20 year old FL1 against a new EV.

Now if we were to compare a modern 1.4 L diesel VW polo doing 80 odd Mpg against an equivalent sized EV, then the EV doesn't have such an obvious cost per mile benefit. Also take into consideration that the batteries on EVs onle give a 5 or 6 year life, with a major cost to replace. The costs per mile, when worked out for the full vehicle life, don't look anywhere near as favourable for the EV.

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You should watch the two videos I posted. One of the guys is a respected car journalist but the other is a crazy veggy old hippy so maybe not the most reliable source but I don't think they were lying when they said the car was doing 5.1 miles per kWh. Yes that is on a long journey and they were probably driving gently but it is still a very impressive figure and would give a theoretical range of 326.4 miles.
In other videos they have said how amazed they were at the miles per kWh they got from the Kona and the e-Niro compared to other cars they have tested so these two cars are much better than most.
BTW the Kona has 8 years warranty on the electric drive train including batteries and the e-Niro has 7 years warranty on the entire car.
My previous car, a Skoda Octavia was doing around 55mpg so it is a bit better and I agree that Polo doing 80mpg is getting close. By my maths if the Freelander costs 14ppm at 40mpg then the Polo will be 7ppm so very close to these cars at 5ppm.
The thing is battery technology is improving so much faster than ICE it is only a matter of time before all cars are electric.
For better or worse.

Alibro said:

BTW the Kona has 8 years warranty on the electric drive train including batteries and the e-Niro has 7 years warranty on the entire car.

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I've been looking at the new EV data this afternoon. Things have moved on quite a lot in the last few years since I last looked into it.


That Kona looks very cheap to run, using 230 Watt per mile, which is under 4 Pence per mile.

Obviously this is just the energy cost and doesn't include total vehicle costs per mile over its lifetime.

The 8 years warranty is good too, but I do wonder if the vehicle will be worthless after it's warranty runs out.

EVs are definitely the way to go, so we'll have to embrace them I guess.

I recently came across a project where old ev batteries are being used in land banks. Stored electric at night for use int day. So the carbon figures from the half wits saying the batteries are beyond use after 5 years... is wrong.

Hippo said:

So the carbon figures from the half wits saying the batteries are beyond use after 5 years... is wrong

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Lithium ion batteries can be reproduced into new batteries.

Reprocessing them isn't the problem. It's the cost of them when they need replacing in the EV.

Alibro said:

The thing is battery technology is improving so much faster than ICE it is only a matter of time before all cars are electric.

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Fancy EV power for the FL1 Ali? There's a very cheap motor on EBay at the moment. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/254050287501