Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Funny you mentioned coding. In theory the engine should still run ok on random uncoded injectors. The fueling modifications done by coding are literally miniscule, basically it's for emissions cleanliness only.
However.
Something I noticed yesterday when I had No3 and No2 injectors out. Someone has faintly stamped cylinder numbers into the injector body. Now I kept the injectors in the same sentence as I removed them, assuming the new ones were coded to the PTM.
What I noticed with the injectors out was the one stamped No3 actually came out of No2 cylinder, and the one stamped No2, came out of No3. So if these replacement reconditioned injectors were coded to the PTM, they were coded the wrong way round. This engine is basically the reverse of convention when it comes to cylinder numbering, cylinder No1 being at the flywheel end, but the replacement injectors seem to be sequenced starting from the cam drive end, which is reversed.
I've not looked at No1 or No4, to see if those are stamped with numbers or checked if they're in the wrong cylinders, but I'm betting they are.
The engine once running on 4, is running better now than when I first fired it up, maybe putting those two injectors in the correct cylinders has improved it, but it's still doesn’t explain why No3 cylinder still doesn't run or flag an error when it's disconnected, until the engine is running on all 4.
It's almost like the PTM doesn't know it's a 4 cylinder engine, until it has warmed up. It is very very strange.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
It still revs up on 3 cylinders. When it's running on 4 cylinders, the idle is smooth, but there's a slight unevenness, but that could be due to the repairs I've done on No2 cylinder, which could well need some time to bed in.
I've done a video of it this morning, starting from cold, allowing it to idle until it starts running on 4. Unfortunately it's a bit windy here today, so the camera mutes the engine sound as the wind blows, but it's still audible when No3 starts to play ball.
I'll edit it and post it later if I can.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Been out for a couple of miles test drive. It started well, with it putting smoothly under gentle acceleration.
First thing I noticed was how noisy the rear diff seems, now the engine is so quiet.
I'll change the oil, but suspect I'll be rebuilding that at some point.
The engine ran nicely, much nicer than the last time I drove it.
When I got to a hill, a misfire developed, probably just one cylinder, and was very random in nature.
Once over the hill, the misfire stopped and I was able to continue home without any further drama.
So I think the next item to replace is going to be the crank position sensor, as I know these can cause random misfire problems.
First thing I noticed was how noisy the rear diff seems, now the engine is so quiet.
I'll change the oil, but suspect I'll be rebuilding that at some point.
The engine ran nicely, much nicer than the last time I drove it.
When I got to a hill, a misfire developed, probably just one cylinder, and was very random in nature.
Once over the hill, the misfire stopped and I was able to continue home without any further drama.
So I think the next item to replace is going to be the crank position sensor, as I know these can cause random misfire problems.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I know it can cause misfire issues and a pattern part is £12, so worth a shot I think.
Arctic2
Well-Known Member
Hi John.
What is the noise cutting in at about 2.15min into the video ? sounds great once warmed up, i managed to remove and replace the manifold today, what a nightmare, i would not want to do one of those again in an hurry, will post up on my own thread hope you can comment on how you, dealt with the manifold part that is in the alloy bracket, stopping you from removing the manifold?
What is the noise cutting in at about 2.15min into the video ? sounds great once warmed up, i managed to remove and replace the manifold today, what a nightmare, i would not want to do one of those again in an hurry, will post up on my own thread hope you can comment on how you, dealt with the manifold part that is in the alloy bracket, stopping you from removing the manifold?
Attachments
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
That was a scooter whizzing past the end of my lane. Unfortunately Sunday mornings seems to be when the scooterboyz are out n about.
It does, although it does splutter if it's asked to do some work.
What's your thoughts on the crank sensor being the cause?
I personally still suspect that you are losing just enough compression that the cylinder fails to fire and once the engine warms up, the tolerances tighten up enough to cut the compression loss and the cylinder starts firing. I could be wrong and often am, but that is my current theory.
LUKBENPHI
Well-Known Member
Ever so slightly back on topic.
The FL2 engine starts up ok, after a few seconds of cranking. However it's definitely running on 3 cylinders, until its warmed up.
So I reckon it's an injector not playing ball, which is odd, because they look like they've been reconditioned.
I can't identify which one it is electronically, as it appears the PTM used on this engine doesn't record PID information or codes.
So I'm left with simple substitution as a means of identification. I suppose I could unplug each injector in turn, until I find the one with the fault, but this carries an element of risk to the injector driver circuit.
So that leaves substitution as a primary way to identify the duff one.
My thought is to change the injector, that was in the cylinder with the issue first. This injector could have been damaged by numerous hits by the nut, as it bounced about in the combustion chamber. The injector pintle is pretty sturdy, but I'm thinking that maybe the impacts have jarred something inside, causing it to stick.
Any other thoughts or ideas on this are most welcome.
Check the bolts haven't stretched not unknown for the when the piston or something knocks the injector, father in law had it on transit with same engine, smashed injector nozzle and stretched bolts. so untill it warms up and seals compression can move the injector as with stretched bolts its not tight enough to head
HELLPPP!!!
You won't see me asking that very often, but I've an issue and I'm out of ideas.
Start the FL2 up from cold, and she runs on 3 cylinders. Listening with the stethoscope is inconclusive, as there's too much valve noise going on.
So I figured I'd pull the injector plugs 1 by 1, to determine the effect on engine.
No1 causes a considerable drop in running speed and stability. No2 does the same. No3 makes no difference, so I think aha that injector isn't working. Pull No4 and it runs just like No's 1 and 2, so I deducted that No3 injector isn't working.
So I replaced No3 with another second hand injector and started it up. Guess what, it's still running on 3 cylinders. Again I pull the plug no No3, again no difference in running. I think, that the replacement injector is duff, so I switched it for another, with the same result. I ended up switching No3 injector with all 4 spares I have, and all had the same results, no running on No3 cylinder.
Surely all 4 of my spare injectors can't be duff I'm thinking.
So I decided to put No3 injector into No2 cylinder, and No2 injector in No3 cylinder. You'll never guess what, No3 cylinder still isn't running with the No2 injector, but the No2 cylinder is running quite happily on the No3 injector.
So I decided to leave the engine to warm up, as up till now the engine runs on all 4 once its heated up. Well would you believe it, that once it's warmed up you can hear the bloody cylinder starting to run, intermittently at first, but after another couple of minutes it's running on all 4, like a Swiss clock.
So I'm thinking, I wonder if there's a fault with the wiring, as that would make sense. I also noticed that someone has been probing at the injector harness, as there's indentations in the insulation near the plug.
So I decided to pull each plug off in turn, this time they all make a difference, so it's running on 4 when hot.
I go into the car and noticed the LCD showing a fault, and the HDC light is flashing. So I put my I930 on and read the codes. It lists multiple codes on the PTM, all related to injectors open circuit, and one for low rail pressure, but that's likely because I've been messing with changing injectors.
So if the PTM is reporting when I pull the plugs, then all the injectors are connected, then why doesn't it run on 4 cylinders from cold?
I thought It must be low on compression, assuming a sticky valve until it was hit, as that made sense, but I cranked the engine over when it was cold, and it definitely has pretty even compression on all cylinder.
One thing I'm not 100% sure of is whether the PTM reports an injector open circuit when it's cold, as I didn't see the HDC fault until it had warmed up, but I'll test that tomorrow.
So up to now I'm at a loss as to the cause, so any ideas would be appreciated.
wiring or ecu fault, my old rover 416i 16v did the same with a fuel injector, swapped them round and no differnece so had to trace wiring back but was ecu in end
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
The cylinder that isn't firing isn't the cylinder that I've repaired. The damaged cylinder was No2, which is firing just fine (the engine slows when the injector is unplugged).
The cylinder that only begins to start firing when warm is No3.
All cylinders had equal compression cold, so that's been discontinued.
It's like the PTM doesn't know it has to fire No3, until it's warmed up. It makes no sense, but I am now convinced that all the previous engine work was done in an attempt to solve this issue.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, and I know the crank sensor can cause random misfire problems. It's my best guess at the moment.
I've tested the injectors by substitution, the misfire remains on No3. If it was the wiring, wouldn't the PTM flag an open circuit code from cold? Because it doesn't, but it does when the plug is removed, once it's running on all 4.
They're up there with with random or intermittent faults.
SWalker
Active Member
so it only logs a fault (open circuit) when warm. does it log open circuit for the other cylinders when cold?
if its just number 3 - or worth a punt either way - measure the resistance of the loom at the injector end cold vs warm see if there is a difference. I am going to hazard a guess and say you should see something in Kohms - not totally sure but should be the same give or take an ohm, hot or cold.
measure between the pins and individually WRT GND to see.
good luck.
if its just number 3 - or worth a punt either way - measure the resistance of the loom at the injector end cold vs warm see if there is a difference. I am going to hazard a guess and say you should see something in Kohms - not totally sure but should be the same give or take an ohm, hot or cold.
measure between the pins and individually WRT GND to see.
good luck.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
That's how it's been so far. If the engine is cold and running on 3 cylinders, unplugging No3 doesn't log an open circuit code.
It only logs an open circuit code, once that cylinder has started running.
All the other cylinders log an open circuit code from cold.
If the crank sensor doesn't fix the issue, I'll be measuring the resistance of the complete harness from PTM to injector plug. I'll measure a working injector harness too, so I have a point of reference.
Thanks.
Arctic2
Well-Known Member
Hi Nodge
I was reading about misfire on the Freel2 and it turned out to be the fast pedal, now i am not saying this is your fault, but i wonder as you suspect that the damage to your FL2 was caused trying to track down this fault, just a suggestion not a i know what it is thought.
I was reading about misfire on the Freel2 and it turned out to be the fast pedal, now i am not saying this is your fault, but i wonder as you suspect that the damage to your FL2 was caused trying to track down this fault, just a suggestion not a i know what it is thought.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Hi Nodge
I was reading about misfire on the Freel2 and it turned out to be the fast pedal, now i am not saying this is your fault, but i wonder as you suspect that the damage to your FL2 was caused trying to track down this fault, just a suggestion not a i know what it is thought.
I've read that too. I kinda discounted it as the misfire when cold is constant and only on No3 cylinder.
After I've replaced the crank sensor, I'll investigate the Pedal Position Sensor. I'm sure I can graph the output of the PPS, so I might have a go at that in the meantime.
I'm tempted to ask over on the other forum for ideas, but I get the impression that the members seem to be more worried about cosmetic improvements than getting there hands dirty with proper mechanics stuff.
