sierrafery
Well-Known Member
Any Td5 should be let at idle at least 10 secs after ignition before touching the throttle especially the autos cos the ECUs need a bit to regain digital data comms between them so 10 secs is no factor IMO
Neptune19522
Active Member
If that is the case, and I suspect that you are right, it would appear that everything is working correctly.
I also have to admit that last Sunday I drove back to the scene of the original backdown and apart from the 120sec delay everything worked perfectly well. Although I have not tested the kick down function which has always been problematic in that it kicked down a gear then as you are overtaking that slower car the engine appears to miss and only backing off the throttle brought it back to full, if slightly slower, use. This is not too much of a problem to me as I have never tried to make up time by driving fast. I would rather be late than the late Ken...
I also have to admit that last Sunday I drove back to the scene of the original backdown and apart from the 120sec delay everything worked perfectly well. Although I have not tested the kick down function which has always been problematic in that it kicked down a gear then as you are overtaking that slower car the engine appears to miss and only backing off the throttle brought it back to full, if slightly slower, use. This is not too much of a problem to me as I have never tried to make up time by driving fast. I would rather be late than the late Ken...
sierrafery
Well-Known Member
There is a so called "addaptive strategy" in the ECM - EAT ECU relation and LR recommends to reset EAT's addaptive values with diagnostic tool once a sensor involved in fuelling was at fault or replaced but they dont explain how it addapts on it's own and as i dont have an auto i couldnt do any tests to figure this out for good... IMO as long as the sensor inputs are OK, no fault codes logged and it runs well that 10 sec delay is not a problem especially that you are not supposed to touch the throttle so fast after ignition...though if the MIL will flash just like that there is an ECU misbehaviour
Neptune19522
Active Member
I did try to look at the EAT as it communicates with the engine ECU when changing gear - it backed off the timing somehow which is to reduce the 'clunk' when the auto box is changing gear. However I could not find any "reset EAT / Engine ECU" so I put this down to recycling the ignition. This does not mean it is not there just that I could not find it!
I am so happy that I plan to put a 300TDI, without electronic, into my Series III / Defender project...
I am so happy that I plan to put a 300TDI, without electronic, into my Series III / Defender project...
Dunno if this will help or cheer you up or anything, but my TD5 disco auto is quite slow to get started and doesn't pick up terribly well a lot of the time when cold. I have sometimes to almost bury the throttle to make it pick up. But I have to say that I drive extremely gently.
Also modern engines with all the electronix tend to make you forget that an engine has to warm up before it performs correctly.
But any flashing MIL ought to be investigated cos it does indicate some sort of a problem.
Despite mine's hesitancy the MIL never flashes.
Also modern engines with all the electronix tend to make you forget that an engine has to warm up before it performs correctly.
But any flashing MIL ought to be investigated cos it does indicate some sort of a problem.
Despite mine's hesitancy the MIL never flashes.
sierrafery
Well-Known Member
i said "reset EAT's addaptive values" not else and you said that you did that a while ago Auto Disco II cranks but will not start 3 Amigo's + M&S flashing! so maybe would be good to do it again with the new MAF
Neptune19522
Active Member
Had a Sunday out,
Tried resetting the EAT adaptive values, Nanocom reported action completed, then started the engine. No throttle authority for about that two minuets, (stupidly forgot my stop watch),
Then I cycled the ignition and locking protocol including starting the engine. There was about 23 seconds delay, (old fashioned counting method), before throttle authority.
During this delay period the engine revs were about 500rev - rev counter too crude for very accurate figures and Nanocom looking at other concerns! Ambient temperature in the mid teens with very humid air.
This problem is perplexing... I am sure that this vehicle is not 'right' but significantly better than engine not working at all! I still need to drive it and stop to confirm if this delay is still there with a warm engine or not. My major concern now is, will I cause any further damage to any of the electronic systems if I continue to accept this delay and continue to drive the vehicle? (I would have preferred a new engine ECU but everywhere I looked were 'Sold out')!
Tried resetting the EAT adaptive values, Nanocom reported action completed, then started the engine. No throttle authority for about that two minuets, (stupidly forgot my stop watch),
Then I cycled the ignition and locking protocol including starting the engine. There was about 23 seconds delay, (old fashioned counting method), before throttle authority.
During this delay period the engine revs were about 500rev - rev counter too crude for very accurate figures and Nanocom looking at other concerns! Ambient temperature in the mid teens with very humid air.
This problem is perplexing... I am sure that this vehicle is not 'right' but significantly better than engine not working at all! I still need to drive it and stop to confirm if this delay is still there with a warm engine or not. My major concern now is, will I cause any further damage to any of the electronic systems if I continue to accept this delay and continue to drive the vehicle? (I would have preferred a new engine ECU but everywhere I looked were 'Sold out')!
Neptune19522
Active Member
Once more I went for a test drive. After the first cold start with it's 34 sec delay, (I remembered my stopwatch), and M&S W/L I went for a drive; parked up engine running and cleared off the M&S W/L then drove on again. Stoped, switched off the engine and cycled the ignition / alarm and restarted; 34 sec delay while the engine started at 450 rev and then stepped up to 850 and throttle authority! No M&S light apart from that first start up. Did this twice and with a warm engine, still get that 34 sec delay; not a game stopping problem but still a concern.
PopPops
Well-Known Member
Can you record the "inputs fueling" from start and on a short drive and then upload them here?
Neptune19522
Active Member
Just about to have lunch but after that I will go for said drive with a passenger to record all the data.
Are there any filing data that you are particularly looking for?
Are there any filing data that you are particularly looking for?
Neptune19522
Active Member
We did three starts, I suppose I should have done more and if I was at work on the test track I would have but on her majesties roads!
Start 1/ 44 sec Air flow unknown. (Trouble with Nanocom - it needed to reboot for each start sequence...). Cold start
Start 2/ 19 sec Air flow 57 from crank and 220 @ 2k rev. 50 mph Eng up to temp
Start 3/ 16 sec Air flow 51 from crank and 211 @ 1.8k rev 45 mph Eng up to temp
At this point I thought it best to stop.
Seeing the time between crank and usable engine with throttle authority was declining I think that perhaps the ECU is learning how to 'drive' this car. Also it may have had to overwrite it's already learnt values before it was removed from the donor vehicle?
One thing that I found concerning is that on one start sequence, that I observed, "Idle speed error" was reading a negative quantity! The range was fluctuating around 9 points from +2 to -7 (no idea what these figures mean...).
I hope that the above makes some sense to you as I am well out of my depth with this problem.
Start 1/ 44 sec Air flow unknown. (Trouble with Nanocom - it needed to reboot for each start sequence...). Cold start
Start 2/ 19 sec Air flow 57 from crank and 220 @ 2k rev. 50 mph Eng up to temp
Start 3/ 16 sec Air flow 51 from crank and 211 @ 1.8k rev 45 mph Eng up to temp
At this point I thought it best to stop.
Seeing the time between crank and usable engine with throttle authority was declining I think that perhaps the ECU is learning how to 'drive' this car. Also it may have had to overwrite it's already learnt values before it was removed from the donor vehicle?
One thing that I found concerning is that on one start sequence, that I observed, "Idle speed error" was reading a negative quantity! The range was fluctuating around 9 points from +2 to -7 (no idea what these figures mean...).
I hope that the above makes some sense to you as I am well out of my depth with this problem.
PopPops
Well-Known Member
The air flow looks about OK, I have compared it with a recording I took on mine some time ago, however, if you could upload the whole (CSV) file so all the parameters can be looked at that would really help diagnose this.
All I can say is that mine has no throttle delay from hot or cold start (however, I don't like using the throttle for a few seconds from particularly cold start to allow the oil in particular to flow) but I would immediately notice even a 16 second delay.
Idle speed error is just the difference between the actual engine speed and the desired idle speed and what you have again seems normal.
You have replaced the ECU with a "new" secondhand one, but before the old one failed, did it have any of these issues?
Neptune19522
Active Member
Thanks for your input. Clearly this is one of those problems that needs to be worried to death or until we trip over that one fault that is tripping everything else.
Not sure what the CSV file is or how to upload it, or indeed how to save it. I have tried a SD card into the Nanocom but it keeps refusing it. The problem may be in that the one card I have is 64G and too big or that my Apple Mac has formatted that card and the Nanocom seems to work off Microsoft Operating System? I did try to purchase a smaller card but 32G or 64G would appear to be the only card my supermarket would sell. Off to town tomorrow so possible a smaller card may help. I will format it, if that is required, on my old laptop which has a MS OP!
I was informed that the 'new' ECU came off a running vehicle, but...
I have looked at the old ECU and the conformal coating seems to be intact with no burning or damaged PCB tracks, but then I cannot get to the underside and I suspect that it is a three, or more, layered PCB. Quick look for a ECU repairer was £275 as a starting cost, more if the problem was severe! If I could find a new one then I would have purchase that. 20 / 20 hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Not sure what the CSV file is or how to upload it, or indeed how to save it. I have tried a SD card into the Nanocom but it keeps refusing it. The problem may be in that the one card I have is 64G and too big or that my Apple Mac has formatted that card and the Nanocom seems to work off Microsoft Operating System? I did try to purchase a smaller card but 32G or 64G would appear to be the only card my supermarket would sell. Off to town tomorrow so possible a smaller card may help. I will format it, if that is required, on my old laptop which has a MS OP!
I was informed that the 'new' ECU came off a running vehicle, but...
I have looked at the old ECU and the conformal coating seems to be intact with no burning or damaged PCB tracks, but then I cannot get to the underside and I suspect that it is a three, or more, layered PCB. Quick look for a ECU repairer was £275 as a starting cost, more if the problem was severe! If I could find a new one then I would have purchase that. 20 / 20 hindsight is a wonderful thing!
sierrafery
Well-Known Member
It wll not work with Mac
All the info about these things are on the site, for example:
"1. You need to procure a good quality SD card, from a reputable manufacturer with any capacity from 1GB up to 16GB, formatted using the special SD Card Application located on the restricted area: www.nanocom-diagnostics.com/login "
PopPops
Well-Known Member
In addition to what Fery said, I use a 2G card (much bigger than you will ever need) which I think was in an old camera. It's difficult to find a small card these days. 32G is the smallest Argos list. I'm about to gout to the local classic car meet (my D2 is classed as a classic!!), but I'll see if I have a larger card to experiment with in my laptop/Nanocom.
PopPops
Well-Known Member
Well, I had a good rummage but don't have a card larger than 16G, but I did just plug it into the Nanocom and it worked fine. It was from a single board computer with multiple partitions, the first being formatted FAT32. I have never used the Nanocom utility, I almost never use Windows, I have always just plugged it in to the laptop and formatted it FAT32 and it's worked. Maybe I have been lucky, but I suspect the Nanocom utility just formats the card FAT32. Maybe you could get the Apple Mac to format your card FAT32, or, make a 16G partition on it and format that FAT32. I can't advise on any Apple products, I don't have any.
My D2 had been unused for 6 days before we went out yesterday and as soon as the oil light went out after starting, 1-2 seconds, I blipped the throttle and it responded immediately and also settled down to normal idle immediately. Note, I would not normally do this, it was an experiment!!
Neptune19522
Active Member
About to walk into town - no parking problems - and find the smallest SD card that I can. Then having read the blurb from the Nanocom site I will attempt to format it on my v old laptop that still runs a MS OP. I do have some MS items on my Mac - outlook - and somewhere is Excel which apparently is the format that presents the requested information. More when I have it.
Thanks for confirming that my 'delay' is unique to my D2 and not a general item...
Thanks for confirming that my 'delay' is unique to my D2 and not a general item...
sierrafery
Well-Known Member
BTW, about this:
once you removed the bolts both covers are removable so you can see both sides of the PCB
Bennehboy
Well-Known Member
Just a thought, could that replacement ECU be expecting a different throttle position sensor to the type that's fitted? It waits 120 seconds, then switches to the other type?
It's easily programmable with nanocom - could be a complete red herring though. Must be a way to confirm the type fitted from eyeballing the connector?
It's easily programmable with nanocom - could be a complete red herring though. Must be a way to confirm the type fitted from eyeballing the connector?
Neptune19522
Active Member
Ben,
I have wondered if the throttle was misbehaving but as you can depress the throttle in the delay from crank to throttle authority with absolutely no effect on the engine, and some times longer than 120 sec if you press the throttle before the delay expires. However I need to interrogate the parts catalog and eyeball my 'pot' before I go any further. I have come to the conclusion that this vehicle was 'played' about with before I purchased it in 2017 as there quite a few minor items that do not compute so to speak.
Fery,
I undid the three bolts, the fourth sheared off almost as I touched it! The cover of pressed steel was glued down but I prised it off. The bottom was also glued on but to date I have not removed it. There was considerable sign of rust particularly on the two capacitors routing bolts, I think, and on the four bolts. What the underside of the PCB is like I may find out some day but for the moment I am keeping it intact pending potential repair. I think water has got into this component and caused all sorts of problems?
PopPops,
After much mucking about between Mac PC and MS laptop the SD card now has some data on it but still having trouble getting something other than file names. My laptop is potentially too ancient for this modern kit. The SD card has BBS and SBL files. I did, try to, down load the CSV option but again I have no idea how to access any files it may have created.
I have wondered if the throttle was misbehaving but as you can depress the throttle in the delay from crank to throttle authority with absolutely no effect on the engine, and some times longer than 120 sec if you press the throttle before the delay expires. However I need to interrogate the parts catalog and eyeball my 'pot' before I go any further. I have come to the conclusion that this vehicle was 'played' about with before I purchased it in 2017 as there quite a few minor items that do not compute so to speak.
Fery,
I undid the three bolts, the fourth sheared off almost as I touched it! The cover of pressed steel was glued down but I prised it off. The bottom was also glued on but to date I have not removed it. There was considerable sign of rust particularly on the two capacitors routing bolts, I think, and on the four bolts. What the underside of the PCB is like I may find out some day but for the moment I am keeping it intact pending potential repair. I think water has got into this component and caused all sorts of problems?
PopPops,
After much mucking about between Mac PC and MS laptop the SD card now has some data on it but still having trouble getting something other than file names. My laptop is potentially too ancient for this modern kit. The SD card has BBS and SBL files. I did, try to, down load the CSV option but again I have no idea how to access any files it may have created.
