Tyres or chains?

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Paul Rooney

Guest
Anyone got experience of using snow tyres and/or snow chains?
Is one preferable to the other?
Anything else I should know about them?

Cheers.


--

Paul


(Watch this space)
 
Paul Rooney proclaimed:

> Anyone got experience of using snow tyres and/or snow chains?

Yes.

> Is one preferable to the other?

Yes.

> Anything else I should know about them?

Not even chains can make up for driving skills that lack slick weather
experience.

Snow tires tend to be of two varieties. The mud and snow will
typically have rather large tread voids in order to deal with
deep packed or loose snow. Deep as in several inches. A more
typical "snow" tire is really an ice tire...with tread compound
that stays soft at very low temperature, tends to be hydrophilic,
and will typically have a lot of small cuts or sipes to give more
gripping edges on ice. The best of these may be almost as good
as studded tires.

Chains are for severe conditions. Even the cable style will cause
a lot of vibration. Should be used at very low speeds only.
 
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:36:29 GMT, Lon <[email protected]> wrote:

>Paul Rooney proclaimed:
>
>> Anyone got experience of using snow tyres and/or snow chains?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Is one preferable to the other?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Anything else I should know about them?
>
> Not even chains can make up for driving skills that lack slick weather
> experience.
>
> Snow tires tend to be of two varieties. The mud and snow will
> typically have rather large tread voids in order to deal with
> deep packed or loose snow. Deep as in several inches. A more
> typical "snow" tire is really an ice tire...with tread compound
> that stays soft at very low temperature, tends to be hydrophilic,
> and will typically have a lot of small cuts or sipes to give more
> gripping edges on ice. The best of these may be almost as good
> as studded tires.
>
> Chains are for severe conditions. Even the cable style will cause
> a lot of vibration. Should be used at very low speeds only.


Thanks.
Can you keep snow tyres on all winter and drive on snow-free roads OK,
or do you have to keep changing them over when you get onto clear
roads?

--

Paul


(Watch this space)
 

"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:36:29 GMT, Lon <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Snow tires tend to be of two varieties. The mud and snow will
> > typically have rather large tread voids in order to deal with
> > deep packed or loose snow. Deep as in several inches. A more
> > typical "snow" tire is really an ice tire...with tread compound
> > that stays soft at very low temperature, tends to be hydrophilic,
> > and will typically have a lot of small cuts or sipes to give more
> > gripping edges on ice. The best of these may be almost as good
> > as studded tires.
> >
> > Chains are for severe conditions. Even the cable style will cause
> > a lot of vibration. Should be used at very low speeds only.

> Thanks.
> Can you keep snow tyres on all winter and drive on snow-free roads OK,
> or do you have to keep changing them over when you get onto clear
> roads?

Tires are generally safe on clear roads but the wear, noise and handling can
be worse than a regular street tire. The mud & snow type can be incredibly
loud vs. a street tire. It depends on the particular tire.

-John


 
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:51:44 -0700, "Generic" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:36:29 GMT, Lon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > Snow tires tend to be of two varieties. The mud and snow will
>> > typically have rather large tread voids in order to deal with
>> > deep packed or loose snow. Deep as in several inches. A more
>> > typical "snow" tire is really an ice tire...with tread compound
>> > that stays soft at very low temperature, tends to be hydrophilic,
>> > and will typically have a lot of small cuts or sipes to give more
>> > gripping edges on ice. The best of these may be almost as good
>> > as studded tires.
>> >
>> > Chains are for severe conditions. Even the cable style will cause
>> > a lot of vibration. Should be used at very low speeds only.
>
>> Thanks.
>> Can you keep snow tyres on all winter and drive on snow-free roads OK,
>> or do you have to keep changing them over when you get onto clear
>> roads?
>
>Tires are generally safe on clear roads but the wear, noise and handling can
>be worse than a regular street tire. The mud & snow type can be incredibly
>loud vs. a street tire. It depends on the particular tire.
>
>-John
>


Thanks. What kind of conditions would chains be able to cope with, do
you know?

--

Paul


(Watch this space)
 

"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:51:44 -0700, "Generic" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:36:29 GMT, Lon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > Snow tires tend to be of two varieties. The mud and snow will
> >> > typically have rather large tread voids in order to deal with
> >> > deep packed or loose snow. Deep as in several inches. A more
> >> > typical "snow" tire is really an ice tire...with tread compound
> >> > that stays soft at very low temperature, tends to be hydrophilic,
> >> > and will typically have a lot of small cuts or sipes to give more
> >> > gripping edges on ice. The best of these may be almost as good
> >> > as studded tires.
> >> >
> >> > Chains are for severe conditions. Even the cable style will cause
> >> > a lot of vibration. Should be used at very low speeds only.
> >
> >> Thanks.
> >> Can you keep snow tyres on all winter and drive on snow-free roads OK,
> >> or do you have to keep changing them over when you get onto clear
> >> roads?
> >
> >Tires are generally safe on clear roads but the wear, noise and handling
can
> >be worse than a regular street tire. The mud & snow type can be
incredibly
> >loud vs. a street tire. It depends on the particular tire.

> Thanks. What kind of conditions would chains be able to cope with, do
> you know?

The major use for tire chains is on 2wd vehicles in ice and not too deep
snow on paved roads. They give a 2wd the ability to move when it would
otherwise spin its wheels or slide off the road. They'd probably help
somewhat off road, in mud for example, but in practice the people who go far
off road get a specialized 4wd vehicle.]

[Tire chains are thoroughly miserable to use. Traditionally you must lay
them out then drive on top, and attach clips from behind dirty and wet
wheels. In the middle of bad weather on the side of a road. Then you have
to drive a few feet and tighten them or they'll fall off. Then you must go
25mph or less to avoid tire damage, and they can scratch wheels or slap
against the bodywork. When you finish the wet and dirty chains must be
stored somewhere. Some systems have improved on this routine a bit, but
professional chain installation is big business during ski season in places
like Lake Tahoe.]

-John


 
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:43:56 -0700, "Generic" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:51:44 -0700, "Generic" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:36:29 GMT, Lon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> > Snow tires tend to be of two varieties. The mud and snow will
>> >> > typically have rather large tread voids in order to deal with
>> >> > deep packed or loose snow. Deep as in several inches. A more
>> >> > typical "snow" tire is really an ice tire...with tread compound
>> >> > that stays soft at very low temperature, tends to be hydrophilic,
>> >> > and will typically have a lot of small cuts or sipes to give more
>> >> > gripping edges on ice. The best of these may be almost as good
>> >> > as studded tires.
>> >> >
>> >> > Chains are for severe conditions. Even the cable style will cause
>> >> > a lot of vibration. Should be used at very low speeds only.
>> >
>> >> Thanks.
>> >> Can you keep snow tyres on all winter and drive on snow-free roads OK,
>> >> or do you have to keep changing them over when you get onto clear
>> >> roads?
>> >
>> >Tires are generally safe on clear roads but the wear, noise and handling
>can
>> >be worse than a regular street tire. The mud & snow type can be
>incredibly
>> >loud vs. a street tire. It depends on the particular tire.
>
>> Thanks. What kind of conditions would chains be able to cope with, do
>> you know?
>
>The major use for tire chains is on 2wd vehicles in ice and not too deep
>snow on paved roads. They give a 2wd the ability to move when it would
>otherwise spin its wheels or slide off the road. They'd probably help
>somewhat off road, in mud for example, but in practice the people who go far
>off road get a specialized 4wd vehicle.]
>
>[Tire chains are thoroughly miserable to use. Traditionally you must lay
>them out then drive on top, and attach clips from behind dirty and wet
>wheels. In the middle of bad weather on the side of a road. Then you have
>to drive a few feet and tighten them or they'll fall off. Then you must go
>25mph or less to avoid tire damage, and they can scratch wheels or slap
>against the bodywork. When you finish the wet and dirty chains must be
>stored somewhere. Some systems have improved on this routine a bit, but
>professional chain installation is big business during ski season in places
>like Lake Tahoe.]
>
>-John
>

Thanks. I'm thinking of situations when, for example, you park up at
the top of a mountain pass (I'm in England, by the way) and go on a
day's walk, only to find the weather turns bad and there's fairly deep
snow by the time you get back to the car. I wonder whether chains
would get me out of such a situation.
There are some easy-fit chains available on the internet, though I
don't know how easy they really are to fit in a blizzard!

--

Paul


(Watch this space)
 

"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:43:56 -0700, "Generic" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:51:44 -0700, "Generic" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Paul Rooney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:36:29 GMT, Lon <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >> >> > Snow tires tend to be of two varieties. The mud and snow will
> >> >> > typically have rather large tread voids in order to deal with
> >> >> > deep packed or loose snow. Deep as in several inches. A more
> >> >> > typical "snow" tire is really an ice tire...with tread compound
> >> >> > that stays soft at very low temperature, tends to be
hydrophilic,
> >> >> > and will typically have a lot of small cuts or sipes to give
more
> >> >> > gripping edges on ice. The best of these may be almost as good
> >> >> > as studded tires.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Chains are for severe conditions. Even the cable style will
cause
> >> >> > a lot of vibration. Should be used at very low speeds only.
> >> >
> >> >> Thanks.
> >> >> Can you keep snow tyres on all winter and drive on snow-free roads
OK,
> >> >> or do you have to keep changing them over when you get onto clear
> >> >> roads?
> >> >
> >> >Tires are generally safe on clear roads but the wear, noise and
handling
> >can
> >> >be worse than a regular street tire. The mud & snow type can be
> >incredibly
> >> >loud vs. a street tire. It depends on the particular tire.
> >
> >> Thanks. What kind of conditions would chains be able to cope with, do
> >> you know?
> >
> >The major use for tire chains is on 2wd vehicles in ice and not too deep
> >snow on paved roads. They give a 2wd the ability to move when it would
> >otherwise spin its wheels or slide off the road. They'd probably help
> >somewhat off road, in mud for example, but in practice the people who go
far
> >off road get a specialized 4wd vehicle.]
> >
> >[Tire chains are thoroughly miserable to use. Traditionally you must lay
> >them out then drive on top, and attach clips from behind dirty and wet
> >wheels. In the middle of bad weather on the side of a road. Then you
have
> >to drive a few feet and tighten them or they'll fall off. Then you must
go
> >25mph or less to avoid tire damage, and they can scratch wheels or slap
> >against the bodywork. When you finish the wet and dirty chains must be
> >stored somewhere. Some systems have improved on this routine a bit, but
> >professional chain installation is big business during ski season in
places
> >like Lake Tahoe.]
>
> Thanks. I'm thinking of situations when, for example, you park up at
> the top of a mountain pass (I'm in England, by the way) and go on a
> day's walk, only to find the weather turns bad and there's fairly deep
> snow by the time you get back to the car. I wonder whether chains
> would get me out of such a situation.
> There are some easy-fit chains available on the internet, though I
> don't know how easy they really are to fit in a blizzard!
>

It'll depend on the particular conditions, but they'll give you better odds
of getting out than having nothing. If the snow is deeper than the ground
clearance of the vehicle you may still get stuck. The Lake Tahoe region is
at the top of the mountains in California, so drivers passing through
typically put chains on somewhere on the up slope and take them off on the
down slope.

-John


 
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:11:43 -0700, "Generic" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>It'll depend on the particular conditions, but they'll give you better odds
>of getting out than having nothing. If the snow is deeper than the ground
>clearance of the vehicle you may still get stuck. The Lake Tahoe region is
>at the top of the mountains in California, so drivers passing through
>typically put chains on somewhere on the up slope and take them off on the
>down slope.


Thanks, John.

--

Paul


(Watch this space)
 
Paul Rooney proclaimed:

>
> Thanks.
> Can you keep snow tyres on all winter and drive on snow-free roads OK,
> or do you have to keep changing them over when you get onto clear
> roads?
>
Some SUV manufacturers recommend leaving an all terrain tire on all
year around. Seems that the vehicle will tend to tip over less if
the tires can slide sideways when overcornered a bit.

I keep Michelins on mine all year round...the same thing that makes
them good in Sierra snow makes them good in unexpected downpours.
If I did more timber road or rocky driving would probably change
to a Pirelli Scorpion AT with the extra ply sidewalls. For
hard core rock crawling, I'd just change the vehicle.


 
Generic proclaimed:

>
> Tires are generally safe on clear roads but the wear, noise and handling can
> be worse than a regular street tire. The mud & snow type can be incredibly
> loud vs. a street tire. It depends on the particular tire.

Yeah, I use Michelin M+S and they are not only quieter than the
original Goodyears but help gas mileage and definitely have more
traction. With a bit more ice, the Michelin Pilot helps but
so does simply using brains. The heavy steel belted Michelin
and Pirelli tend to be quieter with better highway tracking
than the plastic belted radials.
 
Paul Rooney proclaimed:

>
> Thanks. What kind of conditions would chains be able to cope with, do
> you know?
>

Really really bad ice and/or packed snow. With a speed limit of
15-25 mph when attached. With limited slip and good tires, never
needed to use them in many many severe winter condition trips, but
always carry two sets.
 
Paul Rooney proclaimed:

>
> Thanks. I'm thinking of situations when, for example, you park up at
> the top of a mountain pass (I'm in England, by the way) and go on a
> day's walk, only to find the weather turns bad and there's fairly deep
> snow by the time you get back to the car. I wonder whether chains
> would get me out of such a situation.
> There are some easy-fit chains available on the internet, though I
> don't know how easy they really are to fit in a blizzard!
>

A good set of chains for modern 4x4 with ABS would be something like
these:
http://www.scc-chain.com/Pages Traction/Traction products/szlt.html

They still give a rough ride and have a very low speed limit [the
centrifugal force moves the chain outwards where it can damage your
vehicle] but excellent traction.

The nice thing about a real SUV is you normally have better clearance
to put them on. Also you should always carry a very still blade
shovel in case you need to remove ice/snow pack away from your
wheel wells in order to install chains.

A few feet of plastic fencing makes it nicer to drive onto for
installing the chains.

It would take some really severe snow to need them in the first place
though. As in snow deep enough to drag heavily on the underside of
your vehible.

Unless there is pack ice under snow, as long as the snow isn't deep
enough to drag on the body heavily, you should be able to keep moving
without chains in any good 4x4. If you want a safety measure for
hill descent, as long as you keep speed well down, I can't imagine
anything lower than a Wyoming blizzard that could stop a 4x4 with
enough power that is fitted with chains.

 
Generic proclaimed:

>
> It'll depend on the particular conditions, but they'll give you better odds
> of getting out than having nothing. If the snow is deeper than the ground
> clearance of the vehicle you may still get stuck. The Lake Tahoe region is
> at the top of the mountains in California, so drivers passing through
> typically put chains on somewhere on the up slope and take them off on the
> down slope.

Never used them, and pass thru there frequently in winter.
You don't even need to carry chains in a genuine 4x4 with snow tires
except in the very worst conditions. And that snow is very wet and
sticky. See all sorts of Cute Utes stuck in the worst weather, but
rarely a Jeep unless the driver is an idiot.
 

"Lon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7NE5d.162790$3l3.76121@attbi_s03...
> Generic proclaimed:
>
> >
> > It'll depend on the particular conditions, but they'll give you better
odds
> > of getting out than having nothing. If the snow is deeper than the
ground
> > clearance of the vehicle you may still get stuck. The Lake Tahoe region
is
> > at the top of the mountains in California, so drivers passing through
> > typically put chains on somewhere on the up slope and take them off on
the
> > down slope.
>
> Never used them, and pass thru there frequently in winter.
> You don't even need to carry chains in a genuine 4x4 with snow tires
> except in the very worst conditions. And that snow is very wet and
> sticky. See all sorts of Cute Utes stuck in the worst weather, but
> rarely a Jeep unless the driver is an idiot.

Yes, genuine 4x4s don't really need them. I meant cars.

I80 is plain hazardous to cars during heavy weather. My old car was COATED,
including the windows, in frozen sand spray from the SUVs with snow & muds
around me. I had to get off the road several times to wipe down the
windows.

-John


 
Paul Rooney wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:11:43 -0700, "Generic" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >It'll depend on the particular conditions, but they'll give you better odds
> >of getting out than having nothing. If the snow is deeper than the ground
> >clearance of the vehicle you may still get stuck. The Lake Tahoe region is
> >at the top of the mountains in California, so drivers passing through
> >typically put chains on somewhere on the up slope and take them off on the
> >down slope.

I carry a set of Z-chains for my 4x4, used them one and they did work
well. Was in some wet spring snow, and it was starting to freeze as the
sun went down. Had to pull 2 trucks up a steep hill, so I slapped on
the chains, at the time I was buried to the axles in deep snow and got
the chains on without having to move the vehicle:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CA-4/Images/Apr21/Image05.jpg
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CA-4/TR_2001_04_21.shtml

The Z-chains are nice in that the cross links cross the tire diagonally
instead of radially so you don't end up with bare tire, then chain, then
bare tire, so you always have some chain between the tire and the
snow/ice.

Normally, just airing down the tires as needed for the conditons is
sufficient. I'll drop to 10-15 psi normally and have sone as low as 7
on my 33x10.50 tires (was at that pressure in the above photo).

--
Roger
 
I have a Tahoe Z71. I do not off road at all, but really enjoy going to
the snow. When the news says 'chains required', does that apply to 4wd
vehicles? I dont have chains, and always wonder if they are going to
turn us away.

Mark

 

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a Tahoe Z71. I do not off road at all, but really enjoy going to
> the snow. When the news says 'chains required', does that apply to 4wd
> vehicles? I dont have chains, and always wonder if they are going to
> turn us away.

Check your local laws. In many cases no, as long as you have snow & mud
tires, but it may be prudent to carry them anyway. Some people in law
enforcement follow the letter of the law. I recall riding in a front wheel
drive car in the 70s and getting hassled for having chains on the front
wheels... Took a bit of effort to convince the trooper it wouldn't work any
other way.

-John


 
[email protected] proclaimed:

> I have a Tahoe Z71. I do not off road at all, but really enjoy going to
> the snow. When the news says 'chains required', does that apply to 4wd
> vehicles? I dont have chains, and always wonder if they are going to
> turn us away.

Depends on your state. For example, in normal "chains required" the
restriction may be either chains OR a four wheel drive with
snow tires labelled as such. You may be required to carry chains
and show them at a checkpoint if it is really bad. Never seen it
get bad enough that even 4x4 are required to actually mount the
chains...by that time the highways are usually just closed.
Check the equivalent of your state's DMV and Highway patrol website.
 
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