Towing

We get many enquiries about towing on here.
Most road / offroad vehicles are not designed for towing. Road cars are set
up by the manufacturers to meet a number of criteria for 'everyman',
including economy, accelleration etc. etc. They generally do not set up
their vehicles as tow vehicles, so anyone using them as such puts the
vehicle under undue stress. Just because Ford / Vauxhall etc rate a certain
vehicle as being capable of towing, say 1.5 tonnes, it does not mean that
they recommend this on a day to day basis.For example, a 50cc moped can be
loaded up with a trailer, four or five bodies, farm produce etc. and will
still move along the road - thousands do in China. However, it will be
shagged out in no time. Cars are just the same. 4X4s by their more robust
nature are more usable and stable, but manufacturer's limits are there as
just that, a limit, not a recommendation to pull 3.5 tonnes, for example,
constantly, or even infrequently. I would regard such limits as a 'do it if
you have to for a short distance' rule.
One guy on here recently proposed towing a caravan weighing 1.4 tonnes with
a Freelander. I would only be prepared to do that in an emergency, the
Freelander is just not chunky enough for that load regularly, I know, I
owned one.
There is also the issue of safety. In twenty odd years of towing a variety
of things, I have lost count of the number of caravans I have seen that
rolled sideways, taking the nice family saloon up into the air with them,
and the devastated families waiting by the roadside for help. I regularly
see 'Dad' at the wheel, looking accusingly over his shoulder at the snaking
menace behind him as he does 70 mph plus. Why don't these simpletons just
slow down a bit? The snaking will stop if the trailer is properly loaded. He
is usually in the family car, which is fully laden anyway, then adds to his
problems by hitching on the caravan, along with bikes, paddling pools etc.
etc. I have no objection to people enjoying themselves, but some put
themselves and others at so much risk. A while back I was selling a ski
boat, which at one tonne, towed perfectly behind my Discovery. One would be
buyer arrived in his Toyota Corolla, with which he proposed to tow the boat
from Kent to the Lake District on a regular basis. Mad, putting himself and
other road users at risk. How's the car going to cope with a nice slippery
slipway? Sure, the 'book says it can tow a tonne' but....
My advice, for what its worth, is to tow well within the limits of your
vehicle. You will be safer, the vehicle will last longer and you will not
burn excess petrol / diesel. Go overgunned and be safe. Which is more
important, getting to and from your happy holiday in safety, or taking
everything you own because the manufacturer says you can.

In message <[email protected]>, roddytoo
<[email protected]> writes

>the 'book says it can tow a tonne' but....

If my memory serves me right? <bg> The manufacturers put a figure of
being able to move a rolling load on a 12pc gradient?
--
Graham Jones

"Graham Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, roddytoo
> <[email protected]> writes
>
> >the 'book says it can tow a tonne' but....
>
> If my memory serves me right? <bg> The manufacturers put a figure of
> being able to move a rolling load on a 12pc gradient?
> --
> Graham Jones

You have missed the point completely. Maybe the vehicle can, with much
clutch slipping and revving, but for how long and how often? The
manufacturers are in the business of selling cars, generally for road use,
not to be hammered. It all depends on what you regard as reasonable use of
the vehicle - any vehicle. A 38 tonne artic tractor unit will pull for
250000 miles plus, but it is designed to do just that. Cars and 4x4s will
tow to their limit but their service life *will* be reduced. The second
point you missed is that of safety. I don't want to be anywhere near when
some of the guys on here are towing animals in trailers with a gross weight
of 4 tonnes behind a Landie, whichever model. Get a vehicle designed for the
job.

roddytoo wrote:
> "Graham Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In message <[email protected]>, roddytoo
>> <[email protected]> writes
>>
>>> the 'book says it can tow a tonne' but....
>>
>> If my memory serves me right? <bg> The manufacturers put a figure of
>> being able to move a rolling load on a 12pc gradient?
>> --
>> Graham Jones
>
> You have missed the point completely. Maybe the vehicle can, with much
> clutch slipping and revving, but for how long and how often? The
> manufacturers are in the business of selling cars, generally for road
> use, not to be hammered. It all depends on what you regard as
> reasonable use of the vehicle - any vehicle. A 38 tonne artic tractor
> unit will pull for 250000 miles plus, but it is designed to do just
> that. Cars and 4x4s will tow to their limit but their service life
> *will* be reduced. The second point you missed is that of safety. I
> don't want to be anywhere near when some of the guys on here are
> towing animals in trailers with a gross weight of 4 tonnes behind a
> Landie, whichever model. Get a vehicle designed for the job.

With the greatest respect, it is you who is missing the point when it comes
to Land Rovers. They are designed to tow 4 tonnes and are registered and
warrantied as able to do so. Doing so safely is a matter of the ability of
the driver, not the vehicle.

Even with a 3500kg trailer my 90 required no clutch slipping and no heavy
revving. LR's can use their low-ratio box on road so even on steep hills it
is a simple matter of pulling away in low-box and then double de-clutching
up to high box when moving. I wouldn't want to tow 3 or 4 tonnes with any
vehicle that can't use low-box on road however as it leaves you with nothing
in reserve and I would never exceed 40mph and to descend hills I go back to
low-box to save the brakes.

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

"Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> roddytoo wrote:
> > "Graham Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> In message <[email protected]>, roddytoo
> >> <[email protected]> writes
> >>
> >>> the 'book says it can tow a tonne' but....
> >>
> >> If my memory serves me right? <bg> The manufacturers put a figure of
> >> being able to move a rolling load on a 12pc gradient?
> >> --
> >> Graham Jones
> >
> > You have missed the point completely. Maybe the vehicle can, with much
> > clutch slipping and revving, but for how long and how often? The
> > manufacturers are in the business of selling cars, generally for road
> > use, not to be hammered. It all depends on what you regard as
> > reasonable use of the vehicle - any vehicle. A 38 tonne artic tractor
> > unit will pull for 250000 miles plus, but it is designed to do just
> > that. Cars and 4x4s will tow to their limit but their service life
> > *will* be reduced. The second point you missed is that of safety. I
> > don't want to be anywhere near when some of the guys on here are
> > towing animals in trailers with a gross weight of 4 tonnes behind a
> > Landie, whichever model. Get a vehicle designed for the job.
>
> With the greatest respect, it is you who is missing the point when it
comes
> to Land Rovers. They are designed to tow 4 tonnes and are registered and
> warrantied as able to do so. Doing so safely is a matter of the ability of
> the driver, not the vehicle.
>
> Even with a 3500kg trailer my 90 required no clutch slipping and no heavy
> revving. LR's can use their low-ratio box on road so even on steep hills
it
> is a simple matter of pulling away in low-box and then double de-clutching
> up to high box when moving. I wouldn't want to tow 3 or 4 tonnes with any
> vehicle that can't use low-box on road however as it leaves you with
nothing
> in reserve and I would never exceed 40mph and to descend hills I go back
to
> low-box to save the brakes.
>
> --
> Julian
> ---------
> = Pretentious Sig required =
>
>
Maybe we're at cross purposes to some extent.
The great majority of people using towing vehicles would not be able to
drive as you describe, nor would they excercise the restraint to restrict
themselves to 40 mph. Even so, such demanding use of even a Land Rover must
shorten their service life.

"roddytoo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Graham Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In message <[email protected]>, roddytoo
> > <[email protected]> writes
> >
> > >the 'book says it can tow a tonne' but....
> >
> > If my memory serves me right? <bg> The manufacturers put a figure
of
> > being able to move a rolling load on a 12pc gradient?
> > --
> > Graham Jones
>
> You have missed the point completely. Maybe the vehicle can, with
much
> clutch slipping and revving, but for how long and how often? The
> manufacturers are in the business of selling cars, generally for
road use,
> not to be hammered. It all depends on what you regard as reasonable
use of
> the vehicle - any vehicle. A 38 tonne artic tractor unit will pull
for
> 250000 miles plus, but it is designed to do just that. Cars and 4x4s
will
> tow to their limit but their service life *will* be reduced. The
second
> point you missed is that of safety. I don't want to be anywhere near
when
> some of the guys on here are towing animals in trailers with a gross
weight
> of 4 tonnes behind a Landie, whichever model. Get a vehicle designed
for the
> job.
>
>

It most emphatically is designed for the job. Thousands of them tow in
the top third of the legal limit daily. Tens of thousands on a regular
basis if you just count the farmers that use them in this way. Yes, of
course maintenance is increased but that is just part of the running
cost. No, the working life of the vehicle is not reduced as long as
the driver is half sensible and accepts increased maintenance and
replacement/repair of components. Do you think all those trailers full
of sheep and cattle don't weigh much? Only three bullocks may weigh
2.1 tons and the EMPTY Ifor Williams exceeds a ton. If we accept your
statement above at face value then those 14' trailers would be pulled
around empty or with about a quarter capacity to be acceptable to you.

I'll let you into a little known secret. The majority of Land Rover
defender are bought purely to work hard in a variety of roles
including heavy towing. If it was not for the towing ability, then
Defender 90 sales in the UK would be next to non existent and everyone
would be running Jap pick-up trucks. Only the number of small farmers
in Europe who cannot justify or afford to run 7.5 ton trucks or
bigger, keeps sales alive. This explains the lack of such vehicles in
most of the rest of the World, where farms are vast ranches with a
scale that makes such vehicles superfluous.

I have to admit that most of these Land Rovers are retired to lighter
duty by 200,000 miles. Some, like mine, only do very short journeys
off road and heavy haulage throughout their life. Despite an average
journey length of less than two miles between cold starts and an
average speed of much less than 15mph, mine has lasted 120,000 miles
in twenty years on the original engine and gearbox which remain
untouched apart from a head gasket in the distant past. To put this in
context, one of my vehicles has done 60,000 miles at roughly 35mph
average, mainly on road and long journeys. That's 1714 hours light
work. The Land Rover has 120000 at less than15mph of mainly off-road
and towing, a fair proportion in low range, which is an incredible
8000+ heavy duty hours.
8000 hours at 35mph is equal to 280,000 miles or more. Don't tell me
that a Land Rover type vehicle is not built to take it. Of course it
is. These are working machines and only a small minority are bought
new without heavy towing and work as part of the routine.
Your experience appears limited and your view, narrow.

I know of one Shogun that has done 150,000 miles consistently towing
above its recommended towing limit with a civil engineer. Still on
original clutch and drives better than new. Just by how much *will*
the service life be reduced?
Quite frankly, after this much work, these vehicles owe nothing to
their owners and could be scrapped with pride. However, they just keep
on chugging away.

I should also say that accidents with these loads are extremely low
compared with lighter caravans which are particularly prone to snaking
and generally have drivers less experienced in towing and who tow
infrequently. The key to safety in heavy towing is speed. These
vehicles can safely, if not legally, tow incredible loads as long as
*appropriate* speed is used.

Huw


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"roddytoo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > roddytoo wrote:
> > > "Graham Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > >> In message <[email protected]>,
roddytoo
> > >> <[email protected]> writes
> > >>
> > >>> the 'book says it can tow a tonne' but....
> > >>
> > >> If my memory serves me right? <bg> The manufacturers put a
figure of
> > >> being able to move a rolling load on a 12pc gradient?
> > >> --
> > >> Graham Jones
> > >
> > > You have missed the point completely. Maybe the vehicle can,
with much
> > > clutch slipping and revving, but for how long and how often? The
> > > manufacturers are in the business of selling cars, generally for
road
> > > use, not to be hammered. It all depends on what you regard as
> > > reasonable use of the vehicle - any vehicle. A 38 tonne artic
tractor
> > > unit will pull for 250000 miles plus, but it is designed to do
just
> > > that. Cars and 4x4s will tow to their limit but their service
life
> > > *will* be reduced. The second point you missed is that of
safety. I
> > > don't want to be anywhere near when some of the guys on here are
> > > towing animals in trailers with a gross weight of 4 tonnes
behind a
> > > Landie, whichever model. Get a vehicle designed for the job.
> >
> > With the greatest respect, it is you who is missing the point when
it
> comes
> > to Land Rovers. They are designed to tow 4 tonnes and are
registered and
> > warrantied as able to do so. Doing so safely is a matter of the
ability of
> > the driver, not the vehicle.
> >
> > Even with a 3500kg trailer my 90 required no clutch slipping and
no heavy
> > revving. LR's can use their low-ratio box on road so even on steep
hills
> it
> > is a simple matter of pulling away in low-box and then double
de-clutching
> > up to high box when moving. I wouldn't want to tow 3 or 4 tonnes
with any
> > vehicle that can't use low-box on road however as it leaves you
with
> nothing
> > in reserve and I would never exceed 40mph and to descend hills I
go back
> to
> > low-box to save the brakes.
> >
> > --
> > Julian
> > ---------
> > = Pretentious Sig required =
> >
> >
> Maybe we're at cross purposes to some extent.
> The great majority of people using towing vehicles would not be able
to
> drive as you describe,

Of course they can. If they have a need to do so, they are not
imbeciles. Imbeciles would not have such a need.


nor would they excercise the restraint to restrict
> themselves to 40 mph.


Of course they would/do. They drive at appropriate speed otherwise
they would be up a hedge.
The empty 16' trailers can be towed at quite good speed but the style
of driving changes when towing due to extra length and corner cutting
by the long trailer. All this is automatic to the experienced towman,
who just changes mode of operation.



Even so, such demanding use of even a Land Rover must
> shorten their service life.
>
>

The service life of a Land Rover is generally governed by rusting
chassis not general mechanical failure, however they are loaded as
long as they are sensibly driven. Some idiots can destroy anything
within a couple of years without towing at all. Others tow until old
age causes chassis rot or they just get bored and want some shiny
paint. Some just baulk at throwing money at a vehicle which may be
worth only what they pay out in maintenance every couple of years.
Despite not having any major surgery, mine probably costs around 10p
per mile in maintenance costs plus standard servicing and fuel,
insurance etc. It has been steadily eating money at about the same
rate for the last 15 years and, if anything, has been getting cheaper
to run as it gets older. depreciation is very low.

Huw


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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roddytoo wrote:
> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> roddytoo wrote:
>>> "Graham Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> In message <[email protected]>, roddytoo
>>>> <[email protected]> writes
>>>>
>>>>> the 'book says it can tow a tonne' but....
>>>>
>>>> If my memory serves me right? <bg> The manufacturers put a figure
>>>> of being able to move a rolling load on a 12pc gradient?
>>>> --
>>>> Graham Jones
>>>
>>> You have missed the point completely. Maybe the vehicle can, with
>>> much clutch slipping and revving, but for how long and how often?
>>> The manufacturers are in the business of selling cars, generally
>>> for road use, not to be hammered. It all depends on what you regard
>>> as reasonable use of the vehicle - any vehicle. A 38 tonne artic
>>> tractor unit will pull for 250000 miles plus, but it is designed to
>>> do just that. Cars and 4x4s will tow to their limit but their
>>> service life *will* be reduced. The second point you missed is that
>>> of safety. I don't want to be anywhere near when some of the guys
>>> on here are towing animals in trailers with a gross weight of 4
>>> tonnes behind a Landie, whichever model. Get a vehicle designed for
>>> the job.
>>
>> With the greatest respect, it is you who is missing the point when
>> it comes to Land Rovers. They are designed to tow 4 tonnes and are
>> registered and warrantied as able to do so. Doing so safely is a
>> matter of the ability of the driver, not the vehicle.
>>
>> Even with a 3500kg trailer my 90 required no clutch slipping and no
>> heavy revving. LR's can use their low-ratio box on road so even on
>> steep hills it is a simple matter of pulling away in low-box and
>> then double de-clutching up to high box when moving. I wouldn't want
>> to tow 3 or 4 tonnes with any vehicle that can't use low-box on road
>> however as it leaves you with nothing in reserve and I would never
>> exceed 40mph and to descend hills I go back to low-box to save the
>> brakes.
>>
>> --
>> Julian
>> ---------
>> = Pretentious Sig required =
>>
>>
> Maybe we're at cross purposes to some extent.
> The great majority of people using towing vehicles would not be able
> to drive as you describe, nor would they excercise the restraint to
> restrict themselves to 40 mph.

Agreed.

Even so, such demanding use of even a
> Land Rover must shorten their service life.

That has not been my experience over 20 years. A bad driver can break an
unladen LR quicker than a good driver with 3.5 tonnes on the back - just ask
the army!

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =